Try and argue this. I dare ya!

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posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 05:39 PM
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Originally posted by half_minded
It depends on the situation actually. Ill give you example from my own family. I am from a muslim family from india. As you know, there have always been tensions between India and Pakistan (which is a muslim country).

Now if there is a conflict on some physical region, then my parents seem to support india but if there is religion conflict then my parents support pakistan.


Thanks for the reply half-minded -very informative.

I think this thread is going to get side-tracked into muslim-bashing and you're going to be pretty busy fighting other battles, but I'd like to come back at you on a few points.

First one would be your statement about 'religion conflict'. Most Europeans are really 'post-religious', and more interested in their material wealth or personal freedoms, which is perfectly valid, imo.

So let's say a Dane draws a satirical cartoon, or the pope states that Islam can be aggressive? Most Westerners would accept that under freedom of speech even if they didn't agree. Do you think muslims should accept this, or at least confine their protests to non-violent actions?


And from what I have seen, every muslim guys considers himself Indian first and muslim second. Infact, that goes for the non-muslim friends too.

But hey, the new generation is the one who will shape the future. So, I guess the whole extremism thing in Islam is fading away slowly.


I wonder if it comes back to integration - North American muslims seem to integrate, whereas, at least the 7/7 bombers in the UK really didn't.



Concept of Umma is very simple. . Prophet Mohammad was the last prophet and it was said that every human being till the end of the world (Judgement Day) is his Umma. Muslims are expected to spread their religion to every soul on earth because everyone is under prophet muhammad's umma. Non-muslim people are considered as the people who have lost the right path and therefore it is the duty of every muslim to bring everyone to the 'right path'.


Thanks for the explanation! I have no problems with the religious except when they start to infringe on my rights to live my life according to Western norms. Do you feel that post-religious people have the right to refuse the message of Islam? Can islam live alongside other religions and the non-religious?


So its more like saying that we are human. People consider themselves human first then comes the race and distinction.


OK. But. A muslim in London has religious freedom. A Christian (or Buddhist) in Saudi or Egypt doesn't. I was under the impression 'Umma' meant 'muslim brotherhood', rather than 'human'.



But we all know that its not the case because not every muslim follows islam wholeheartedly. out of those who follow, there are moderates and extremists.
Moderates, as I described earlier, look at the situtation first. Extremists however are way too engrossed in Islam and consider every single word in the Quran as the absolute final word.


Yup, you have religious extremists who are Christians too, difference being they have less power in the West because most people are Christian in name only.

I think if most people had the impression that being a muslim didn't interfere with national loyalties (think of Catholics in England in the 16th century) or meant imposition of values on other people (Sharia Law on non-muslims) then I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.

What's your position on Sudan and Nigerian provinces imposing sharia law on non-muslims?

You posted a long answer! I had to cut your post to get anything else in...I'll go back and try to get at the rest now.

TD




posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 05:52 PM
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I didnt use a question mark for a reason. I was trying to show that its ridiculous to ask moderate muslims to stand up against extremists becasue its the same as asking every american to stop bush from going to war. 50% were against Bush and 50% muslims are against 'extremists'. So basically my point was to show that criticizing 'moderates' is pointless and expecting them to stop 'extremists' is ridiculous.


It isn't ridiculous. If someone that is representing your religon on an international level is defaming the entire religon by spouting hate, you have the OBLIGATION to seperate yourself from the fringe. You simply stating that extremists ARENT muslims and that the majority of moderates live outside of muslim states would be similar to THEM saying that you are in league with the infidels and that your blood will not be on their hands.



And the 'point out....yada yada' is not a trap but a valid request. You cannot just say something about me and not provide atleast a quote or some reasoning to backup ur accusations.


No, constantly asking someone to point out your quotes from something in the same thread is counter-productive, and makes you look like you can't follow a conversation.


And let me explain it one more time. The 'real point' of the thread is determined by the original post. Anything posted after that should be directly related to the original thread and not detract from it. However, you cannot say that 'the last sentence of my original post had nothing to do with the first sentence'. Because the WHOLE original post comprises the point of the thread. Any replies that follow should stick to the points discussed in the original


The real point of the your post is as I stated, Argument fodder.

Also..

The last sentence has NOTHING to do with the first sentence.

Now, since I answered your question, I will be done with this thread, as it isn't going to go anywhere else worth sticking around for.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 05:52 PM
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Quotes from the Quran...


Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85). It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5: 11), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28). It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (Q. 14: 17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that ìthey shall have a great punishment in world hereafterî (Q.5: 34). ìAs for the disbelieversî, it says that ìfor them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rodsî (Q. 22: 9). Quran prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9: 23), (Q. 3: 28). Quran asks the Muslims to ìstrive against the unbelievers with great endeavor (Q. 25: 52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (Q. 66: 9). The holy Prophet demanded his follower to ìstrike off the heads of the disbelieversî; then after making a ìwide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captivesî (Q. 47: 4). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (Q. 4:34). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (Q. 66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (Q. 2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (Q. 4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the court (Q. 2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Muhammad allowed the Muslims to marry up to four views and gave them license to sleep with their slave maids and as many ìcaptiveî women as they may have (Q. 4:3). He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women.
www.freerepublic.com...


Interesting quotes from a Peaceful Religion

Remember: Deny Ignorance

No Comments from me, Just quotes from the Peaceful Book.

Semper

[edit on 10/15/2006 by semperfortis]

[edit on 10/15/2006 by semperfortis]



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by pugachev
1. Prove that the US is in anyway stealing oil from the middle east.


First you prove that this war is not for stealing oil.


Originally posted by pugachev
2. Are you so stupid to not understand the reason we are still in that craphole Iraq is because those morons can't stop murdering each other over religious differences?


Are you so stupid to not understand that US does not give a shhit about the religious differences and is only there for oil?
Are you so stupid to not understand that while Saddam was in power, they were not fighting and now after US invasion they are fighting just for power and to be able to become the puppet government for US?
Are you so stupid to not understand that Iraq did not want US to 'help' them still US 'helped' them forcefully by killing so many civilians and causing so much domestic conflict.

See, now that makes you 3 times more stupid than me.



Originally posted by pugachev
If you haven't figured it out yet no one wants to be in Iraq anymore. If it was up to the American people we would be pulling out tommorow. Those idiot's lives are not worth ANY of our soldier's lives.


If you havent figured it out yet, there is no one stopping US from pulling out. US citizens want the troops pulled back, the troops want to be pulled back. Heck even the Iraqis want them to be pulled back.

So why oh why are they still there? If their lives are more precious than Iraqi lives then why are they still there? let me see.......ummm........OIL!


The minute you called me stupid, you automatically proved to me that you have no intelligence and can only use name calling to try and get your point across while contributing nothing of your own. You made it clear that you have no knowledge of the world politics and you have not done any research on these topics. Infact, you did not even read the ATS rules about name calling. I mean, if you havent even researched the website you are posting on, then how can anyone expect you to have done any research on a broad topic like Iraq war.

Your questions were not directly related to the thread but I still replied to you becsause I can see that you lack intelligence and common sense. I felt sorry for you and replied to you in hopes that maye I can inspire you to actually use your brain for a change.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by pugachev
2 things, half-minded.

1. Prove that the US is in anyway stealing oil from the middle east.
2. Are you so stupid to not understand the reason we are still in that craphole Iraq is because those morons can't stop murdering each other over religious differences?

If you haven't figured it out yet no one wants to be in Iraq anymore. If it was up to the American people we would be pulling out tommorow. Those idiot's lives are not worth ANY of our soldier's lives.


If I may point out, it is comman knowledge of how the profit of the oil companies relates to the M.E. As for cold hard proof. You can check the link below.for a few articles of interest. Like dispite the larget oil output for Iraq, they are now importing oil??? Ohh and there is one about how billions of revenue is also lost...
Articles for Iraq and Oil

Your second point is true, but it is also true that everyone and their mother who was against this war pointed out that this was exactly what was going to happen. However, being in there, maybe they can seperate the country up into religous areas and work a dmz zone. Or, just leave and let them sort it out themself's. People are remarkable animals when the powers that be stop messing with them.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 06:05 PM
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Semper, you doing it again. Just posting entire link from some website without adding any arguments and something that is not relevant to the thread.

Btw, who did that translation? How do you know its an accurate translation?

Quran is written in very old arabic and even the arab speakers can tell you that they cannot exactly interpret it because of the style of arabic spoken in it.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 06:08 PM
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Now I'll comment..

Half Minded is 100% correct..

If you can not debate the merits of your stance, post information or argue with him intellectually, resorting to name calling only displays your incredible amount of ignorance to us all here.

Half Minded is not stupid just because his opinion differs from yours. That is truly a STUPID comment.

Semper



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 06:09 PM
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This is second part of my reply to your post.


Originally posted by half_minded


The link you posted shows a survey. First of all, I do not look at surveys because they dont give the actual picture. Just a few people cannot speak for the world population.


I don't know if I agree with you there - it gives a snapshot picture of an opinion. It may not alway s be accurate, but if bias is eliminated, it has some validity. I mean, why would politicians follow opinion polls so slavishly?



But notice, I did not say whether the survey was right or wrong.

I agree that many muslims do support the 'terrorists' because in their eyes, the terrorist is US government.


OK. 'Terrorist', in my opinion would be someone who blows himself up on a London tube train killing civilians. Or flies a plane into a skyscraper.

I'm not talking about the war in Iraq, or attacks on British or US soldiers that could be seen as occupying forces.

I'm also not talking about unease about U.S. foreign policy in the middle east. Or attacks on Lebanese civilians by the Israelis in the recent war. Or US treatment of the Iraqi population

Would you say that people who kill civilians are terrorists, even they say they do it for Allah? It's really a yes or no answer. And if it's a 'no', then we part company.

You may be disgusted with US foreign policy (a lot of non-muslims are too), but imo, you fight monsters without turning into one yourself.




These people do not want the US army in their land. They don't want US dictating them what to do. They don't want US culture affecting them and destroying their culture. They don't like how US misuses its power.


Yup. Insurgency against an occupying force - grey area morally , Ireland and the IRA, Israel and the Stern Gang, South Africa and the ANC.

I'm not going to get into an argument with you about this, because it's more about nationalism than religion. Vietnam wasn't muslim, but they fought the same war.

The question I want answering is the one I posed above - do you feel that you can justify 9/11 and 7/7 on religious grounds? I don't.


If you think that middle east is jealous of american freedom and success then think again. Middle east has so much oil. And these arabs are rich people. They have nice houses, nice cars, police doesnt touch them, they have a life people could only dream of. Why wud they be jealous of America. My parents live in Kuwait. There are no taxes in kuwait. Both my bro and dad work in kuwait. They both have free housing, free dental, free health, free car, free gas, high salary, no tax on salary. Infact, my bro got offers from US and UK but he refused.


I'm not American, but I do have another question about Ummah. I holidayed in the UAE a few times, and I was interested to see that people that were born there (from Lebanon for example) didn't get citizenship. It could be argued that it only goes so far. I also don't like the way that there is little free press and electoral accountability in the gulf, but as a Brit, I don't like making statements on middle eastern standards after Blair and Iraq!

I also don't think that Kuwait or the UAE are representative of the middle east (although this is off topic) - take away oil, and the economics would resemble Syria or Jordan, which ain't so hot.

But like I said - this is coming back to economics and nationalism, rather than religion.



This is the benefits given to immigrants. Imagine the benefits, the citizens enjoy. Yet Americans somehow feel that muslims and arabs are jealous of american freedom and want to attack american because of jealousy.


OK. But like I said above - you're more likely to get an impoverished Egyptian, Afghan or Yemeni doing stuff than a Kuwaiti, right?

I don't think that gulf arabs are jealous of America, they probably own quite a lot of it. Some growing up in the slums of Alexandria may feel differently.



Its very clear what US is doing. If you look at history and compare the current situation you will get your answer.


My question wasn't really about US foreign policy, I have my own opinions about that.

My question to you was above, and I'm guessing I should give you a chance to answer.



Muslims living across the world blend in with society very well. I even created a post titles 'How many muslims you know?'. The post was meant to see wat an average muslim family is like and to see the opinion of people regarding them.
I was not surprised to see that 99% was positive replies. Which itslef is proof that muslims can blend into society and culture just like anhy other human being. There are exceptions but then there always are exception.


I think you're probably right. The assholes are the ones that get all the publicity. The people that keep their heads down and try to get a better life for their family get ignored. It's always the way.


Muslims have no such problem of living peacefully with their neighbours but they do have a problem when they are constantly being criticized and looked down upon with suspicion.

[edit on 15-10-2006 by half_minded]



I don't know what you could do about it. Form a 'muslims for democracy' lobby group if you were so inclined? Stress a commitment to religious pluralism? It's about the only way you'd take publicity away from the lunatics that seem to get all the publicity, in the UK, at least, like Al Mujaroun, and so on.

I think, like I said before, it's a bit like Catholics in England in 16-17th century. They were seen as serving two masters - the Pope before the state and as such were discriminated against. I don't think you are in as bad a situation as they were, but you are certainly treated with suspicion.

I think the only way around it is to positively engage with the media and present an 'Islam and apple pie' version of your religion. It sounds corny, but there you have it.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 06:09 PM
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HM,

I have no idea who translated it..

There are several sites on Google that link to similar information.

Do you have a more accurate translation of the listed sections?

Semper



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 06:12 PM
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Hey Semper

The only thing I'd say about quoting the Koran is that (if I could be bothered) I could find some pretty disgusting quotes in the bible as well.

TD

Edit - actually I could be bothered. Here's some good stuff from the Old Testament!

moses

Does this mean that all Judeo Christians are loonies?

Edit 2 - and let's not forget Jew-baiting in the New Testament!

new testament

So does that make me anti-red sea pedestrians, to quote Monty Python?


[edit on 15-10-2006 by TaupeDragon]

[edit on 15-10-2006 by TaupeDragon]



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 06:23 PM
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TD,

I never attempt to compare the Quran to anything..

Lots of violence in Dante's Inferno as well...

Does that make the Quran less violent?

When does the actions of any one religion give another the right to commit the same heinous activities?

Or in Laymans terms, when does two wrongs make a right?

Semper



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 06:39 PM
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²semper: I could post a zillion quotes like that from the Bible or The Lord Of The Rings and rip them out of context to prove that little green aliens are hiding beneath your kitchen sink, if I must.

What I'm really trying to say is... portraying Islam (which means "peace", even according to Pres. Bush when he visited a mosque shortly after 2001/9/11) as a war religion is just as pointless as if to blame all christians as inquisitors or all jews as greedy or all buddhists as indifferent.

I wish to applaud half_minded on his effort to open our minds a bit and try to look through the other's eye. Even on 9/11 I said in a discussion with my family: look, for us they're terrorists, for them, they're freedom fighters. It depends on your perspective, which side of the fence you're on. This is not to defend war, killing, terror ideologically or in in any other way. I HATE all kinds of violence. Blame me for living in a rainbowish soap bubble world, but I believe if we started to think about the impact of what we say and do on others we'd act quite differently.

As said the Prophet that both muslims and christians hold in high esteem, Jesus (may peace be with him), and as said Immanuel Kant, one of the greatest philosophers of the age of illumination, as says the Golden Rule, as says almost every smart book or thinker in the world: don't do to others want you don't want to be done to you. Just because some offenders of this most basic of all human laws seem to have their roots in a society so very unlike yours - be it a Hip Hop fan, a muslim, a christian, a jew or a policeman, you can't go and blame Hip Hop, Islam, the Bible, the Thora or the Police and try to extinguish all music, religion, books or authorities.

It's pointless, and it's very sad that a thread that was started to help understanding two VERY different styles of thinking and NOT to justify ANY kind of wrong-doing (provocative? yes. accusations? none) is anwered with posts that DO (or at least try to) justify war and murder and accusing the OP of saying things he never said (then again, it could be because of my bad english that I've missed something).

The way I see it, half_minded has touched the very core of why we are so quick to launch battles with thousands of men trying to slaughter each other: because we're led to believe we have an "enemy". We don't. Those guys we're killing could be our best friends if we lived next door to them or met them on MySpace.

Or on ATS. So please, people, calm down, don't bring a proxy war to this place that is intended to deny ignorance. Stop the accusations, stop the picking on words and try to understand what the other one really tries to say, EVEN if you don't share his opinion. This thread is about peace, not about war. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT: everyone was faster than me again. However. Keep the peace.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 06:43 PM
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[Arabic 'islm, submission, from 'aslama, to surrender, resign oneself, from Syriac 'alem, to make peace, surrender, derived stem of lem, to be complete; see lm in Semitic roots.]
www.thefreedictionary.com...


Just for clarification..

Added note:

Why would you start a thread with the title, "Try and Argue This, I Dare You"
Then complain when people argue it????

Chasing our tails here huh?

Semper

[edit on 10/15/2006 by semperfortis]



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by TaupeDragon
First one would be your statement about 'religion conflict'. Most Europeans are really 'post-religious', and more interested in their material wealth or personal freedoms, which is perfectly valid, imo.


So is the case everywhere else. Everyone likes to have freedom. Everyone wants to have good financial stability. People would not be able to practice their religion or beliefs if they were constantly struggling to work multiple jobs to make extra cash. Muslims often skip daily prayers because they have to be at work. Religious conflict would be like someone burning a mosque or church down. This wud raise anger and conflicts. Throughout history, world leaders have used 'Divide and Rule' using religion and it still happens today. People fail to see that.

Normal everyday people like me and you with families dont go out and burn mosques and churches and blow things up. Its the people who are paid to do it. They only do it because they are paid for it, not because of religion. They claim the religion because they are asked to just to create tensions. This is what I believe.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by TaupeDragon
So let's say a Dane draws a satirical cartoon, or the pope states that Islam can be aggressive? Most Westerners would accept that under freedom of speech even if they didn't agree. Do you think muslims should accept this, or at least confine their protests to non-violent actions?


Let me give you an example. Lets say you have neigbour A on your right and neighbour B on your left. A and B are fighting because B's dog #s in A's lawn everyday. A is pissed off with B and wants B to control his dog. Now YOU decide to add some fuel to the fire and get your dog to # in A's lawn. Next morning A is more pissed and goes and slaps B.

This is basically what is happening. Firstly, the muslim countries are pissed about the US military bases in their countries. And on top of that US portrays all muslims as terrorists and then attacks the major OIL rich countries and gains control over them.

Now if these countries fight back, they are all labelled terrorists. And just to provoke them more, they insult the prophet who is the most respected figure in their entire history. Why should this be acceptable?

If I think you daughter is fat, does not give me the right to print cartoons of her in the newspaper showing her with a belly size of an elephant. Why? Because she might get offended.

Printing cartoons of the prophet with bomb on his head is just pure disrespect. Something that freedom of speech does not allow. And the cartoonist obviously knew that this would cause an uproar in the muslim community still he decided to go ahead with it just for kicks.

How do you know muslims only resort to violent actions???

I already wrote in detail about why people only see 'extremists' on TV.

As for my opinion. I would be pissed because I know that the cartoon was deliberately printed to provoke the muslim population. Its like a challenge to muslim people if you are insulting the prophet in front of them. Its pretty much like declaring war openly. And if someone is challenging me, I am the one to stand and fight instead of sitting down quitely. Fight does not have to be physical.

People try to justify it by saying that we wud not be offended if you insulted Jesus. They howerver fail to understand that, unlike them, muslims respect prophet mohammad more than anything. Christians dont respect Jesus as much. Most of them dont even follow christianity so obviously they are not offended if someone insults Jesus.

If you called someone ugly or fat then you would be considered a rude person and people wont like you for it. But a reporter abusing his power and printing downright disrespectful cartoons of prophet is not doing anything wrong?

Still, 'moderate' muslims do not resort to protests out in the streets, they do however support the ones that do.



Originally posted by TaupeDragon
I wonder if it comes back to integration - North American muslims seem to integrate, whereas, at least the 7/7 bombers in the UK really didn't.

You talk about north american muslims. What makes you think that muslims across the globe are any different? They also integrate into society and are good citizens. There are always exceptions. The exceptions are not limited to muslims.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by TaupeDragon
Thanks for the explanation! I have no problems with the religious except when they start to infringe on my rights to live my life according to Western norms. Do you feel that post-religious people have the right to refuse the message of Islam? Can islam live alongside other religions and the non-religious?


When was the last time a muslim man came to your house and tried to control your life? Islam does require its followers to live in a certain way and do things in a certain way. Also requires them to give up things, like alcohol for example. It is also required for Islam followers to spread the message of Islam to everyone. However, Islam does not permit the spreading to be done with force.

Islam is based on ones personal beliefs. The Quran says that you have to believe in Allah yourself otherwise anything you do in name of Islam is pointless. Anything you do (prayer, fasting, pilgrimage) has to be done to please Allah and not to show-off, i.e., the intention of the person is important. So, if you force someone into the religion, they really are not truly muslim because they do not belive in Allah. So why wud a true muslim try to ever force his beliefs on anyone when he knows its pointless.

Everyone has the right to refuse the message of Islam. Muslims would never try to force it down on you. Anyone who does try to force you does not know anything about Islam and you should probably call the cops on him.

Islam has been living alongside other religions for thousands of years, but more recently because of the constant accusations and conflicts, Islam is facing a problem.

Personally I feel that its the US that has created these conflicts and not Islam.


Originally posted by TaupeDragon
OK. But. A muslim in London has religious freedom. A Christian (or Buddhist) in Saudi or Egypt doesn't. I was under the impression 'Umma' meant 'muslim brotherhood', rather than 'human'.


Why go there then? Why live there then? Its a country ruled by muslim leaders and they have their rules. If you dont want to follow them then you should not live there. People always expect immigrants to follow the rules of their country, no matter what. So why question the rules of another country.

Umma means followers of prophet mohammad, which is meant to be everyone. however, thats not the case. Only muslims are therefore considered umma and it is their duty to spread islam to other people.


Originally posted by TaupeDragon
What's your position on Sudan and Nigerian provinces imposing sharia law on non-muslims?


I think its wrong. Its against Islam to impose anything and its also against human rights and common sense. Imposing something on people can never bring about any good results.

And I also think that lot of sharia laws are outdated.


Originally posted by TaupeDragon
You posted a long answer! I had to cut your post to get anything else in...I'll go back and try to get at the rest now.


Sorry abt that, but im trying to explain as much in detail as possible.

[edit on 15-10-2006 by half_minded]

[edit on 15-10-2006 by half_minded]



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 07:23 PM
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Originally posted by HankMcCoy
It isn't ridiculous. If someone that is representing your religon on an international level is defaming the entire religon by spouting hate, you have the OBLIGATION to seperate yourself from the fringe. You simply stating that extremists ARENT muslims and that the majority of moderates live outside of muslim states would be similar to THEM saying that you are in league with the infidels and that your blood will not be on their hands.


Osama, people rioting, people protesting out in the streets, etc. are not representing our religion on international level. Just cause fox newsshows some muslims rioting does not mean they internationally represent all muslims and show that all muslims are rioters.

I have the obligation, you are absolutely right. Thats why I am here fulfilling that obligation.

I said terrorists are not muslims because they are basically doing things that are not only harming them but also their religion and other followers of the same religion. Why wud the extremists ever let such bad name come to their religion?

either they are not extremists, as western media portrays, and they are just terrorists or they are some dumb ass extremnists who dunno the first thing abt islam.


Originally posted by HankMcCoy
No, constantly asking someone to point out your quotes from something in the same thread is counter-productive, and makes you look like you can't follow a conversation.


I did not constantly ask you to quote me. I specifically asked you to quote me ONLY when you accuse me of something or when you assume something about me or what I am trying to say. Then I expect you to atleast backup your claim with some quote OR reasoning.


Originally posted by HankMcCoy
The real point of the your post is as I stated, Argument fodder.


Argument fodder?.....The whole point of this website is for people to debate on different topics. Why are you on this website if you dont want to debate???



Originally posted by HankMcCoy
The last sentence has NOTHING to do with the first sentence.


I knew while typing that sentence that you would use it to attack my argument. You take it out of context when its clear that sentence was just metophoric to show that my whole thread is my argument and trying to pick only one sentence out of my entire post and saying that its my only 'real' point is baseless.


Originally posted by HankMcCoy
Now, since I answered your question, I will be done with this thread, as it isn't going to go anywhere else worth sticking around for.


You havent answered any questions in my original post which was the point of the thread. But Im glad you are not sticking around because you did not contribute anything useful to the thread anyway.

[edit on 15-10-2006 by half_minded]



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 07:29 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Why would you start a thread with the title, "Try and Argue This, I Dare You"
Then complain when people argue it????


Lol semper.....I had to pick a title which attracted attention. I had the exact same post with another title but got 0 replies on that one. So I changed the title.

And I only complain when people go off topic. Look at the thread. Its a mess. Way off topic.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 07:44 PM
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originally posted by half-minded
Contrary to popular belief, Extremists are rare in number and even out of those, only the uneducated and backward people are the ones who actually commit murder and use sharia law.

This is false. I give you two names as proof: Mohammed Atta and Ayman al-Zawahiri.


Printing cartoons of the prophet with bomb on his head is just pure disrespect. Something that freedom of speech does not allow.

The First Amendment does not guarantee that you will not be offended, or that someone will not disrespect you. It gives people the right to say whatever they want, with very few exceptions. Offensive and disrespectful statements are not excluded.

That is one of the strengths of the First Amendment.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 07:50 PM
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The reason most muslims are looked upon with suspicous eyes, is because its up to them to solve this problem.

When ever we attempt to right some wrongs in regards to muslims, they backlash against us.

We cant even hold Queen tribute concerts without muslim leaders being agro about it.

If being muslims, is about peace... then the peaceful muslims should be the ones to OUT the finatical muslims.

Christianity tainted the reputation in the crusuades.. and anything we do will simply be attributed to that.

But if peaceful muslims find a means to debate the finatical muslims stance... there might just be a hope.

but the most muslims we murder, detain and torture.. just mean more peaceful muslims join the side of the enemy.

I went out of my way yesterday on an hour long bus trip to sit next to a young muslim girl on the bus.
Not after a phone number, or anything I simply sat next to her with a smile and said hello because she looked like a decent, peace loving individual, someone whom would give me a better understanding of the faith.

IF your to make a difference, search for the good in the faith rather than criticise it.





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