Try and argue this. I dare ya!, page 2

This is second part of my reply to your post.

Originally posted by half_minded

The link you posted shows a survey. First of all, I do not look at surveys because they dont give the actual picture. Just a few people cannot speak for the world population.

I don't know if I agree with you there - it gives a snapshot picture of an opinion. It may not alway s be accurate, but if bias is eliminated, it has some validity. I mean, why would politicians follow opinion polls so slavishly?

But notice, I did not say whether the survey was right or wrong.

I agree that many muslims do support the 'terrorists' because in their eyes, the terrorist is US government.

OK. 'Terrorist', in my opinion would be someone who blows himself up on a London tube train killing civilians. Or flies a plane into a skyscraper.

I'm not talking about the war in Iraq, or attacks on British or US soldiers that could be seen as occupying forces.

I'm also not talking about unease about U.S. foreign policy in the middle east. Or attacks on Lebanese civilians by the Israelis in the recent war. Or US treatment of the Iraqi population

Would you say that people who kill civilians are terrorists, even they say they do it for Allah? It's really a yes or no answer. And if it's a 'no', then we part company.

You may be disgusted with US foreign policy (a lot of non-muslims are too), but imo, you fight monsters without turning into one yourself.

These people do not want the US army in their land. They don't want US dictating them what to do. They don't want US culture affecting them and destroying their culture. They don't like how US misuses its power.

Yup. Insurgency against an occupying force - grey area morally , Ireland and the IRA, Israel and the Stern Gang, South Africa and the ANC.

I'm not going to get into an argument with you about this, because it's more about nationalism than religion. Vietnam wasn't muslim, but they fought the same war.

The question I want answering is the one I posed above - do you feel that you can justify 9/11 and 7/7 on religious grounds? I don't.

If you think that middle east is jealous of american freedom and success then think again. Middle east has so much oil. And these arabs are rich people. They have nice houses, nice cars, police doesnt touch them, they have a life people could only dream of. Why wud they be jealous of America. My parents live in Kuwait. There are no taxes in kuwait. Both my bro and dad work in kuwait. They both have free housing, free dental, free health, free car, free gas, high salary, no tax on salary. Infact, my bro got offers from US and UK but he refused.

I'm not American, but I do have another question about Ummah. I holidayed in the UAE a few times, and I was interested to see that people that were born there (from Lebanon for example) didn't get citizenship. It could be argued that it only goes so far. I also don't like the way that there is little free press and electoral accountability in the gulf, but as a Brit, I don't like making statements on middle eastern standards after Blair and Iraq!

I also don't think that Kuwait or the UAE are representative of the middle east (although this is off topic) - take away oil, and the economics would resemble Syria or Jordan, which ain't so hot.

But like I said - this is coming back to economics and nationalism, rather than religion.

This is the benefits given to immigrants. Imagine the benefits, the citizens enjoy. Yet Americans somehow feel that muslims and arabs are jealous of american freedom and want to attack american because of jealousy.

OK. But like I said above - you're more likely to get an impoverished Egyptian, Afghan or Yemeni doing stuff than a Kuwaiti, right?

I don't think that gulf arabs are jealous of America, they probably own quite a lot of it. Some growing up in the slums of Alexandria may feel differently.

Its very clear what US is doing. If you look at history and compare the current situation you will get your answer.

My question wasn't really about US foreign policy, I have my own opinions about that.

My question to you was above, and I'm guessing I should give you a chance to answer.

Muslims living across the world blend in with society very well. I even created a post titles 'How many muslims you know?'. The post was meant to see wat an average muslim family is like and to see the opinion of people regarding them.
I was not surprised to see that 99% was positive replies. Which itslef is proof that muslims can blend into society and culture just like anhy other human being. There are exceptions but then there always are exception.

I think you're probably right. The assholes are the ones that get all the publicity. The people that keep their heads down and try to get a better life for their family get ignored. It's always the way.

Muslims have no such problem of living peacefully with their neighbours but they do have a problem when they are constantly being criticized and looked down upon with suspicion.

[edit on 15-10-2006 by half_minded]

I don't know what you could do about it. Form a 'muslims for democracy' lobby group if you were so inclined? Stress a commitment to religious pluralism? It's about the only way you'd take publicity away from the lunatics that seem to get all the publicity, in the UK, at least, like Al Mujaroun, and so on.

I think, like I said before, it's a bit like Catholics in England in 16-17th century. They were seen as serving two masters - the Pope before the state and as such were discriminated against. I don't think you are in as bad a situation as they were, but you are certainly treated with suspicion.

I think the only way around it is to positively engage with the media and present an 'Islam and apple pie' version of your religion. It sounds corny, but there you have it.