Try and argue this. I dare ya!

People are quick to criticize and question the 'moderate' muslims of not standing up against radical muslim leaders. Tell me, how many americans actually stood up against Bush and stopped him from killing thousands of people in Iraq and afghanistan. Surely, not every single person living in those countries was a terrorist. In fact, to kill a terrorist in one house, they blew up the entire block (just an analogy). So why didnt the americans stand up against Bush and protested against killing so many innocent people and not to mention its own soldiers. It was like pushing them into the lion's den.

Also, what do you think I am doing here. I am trying to 'undo' the harm done by Osama. He was the reason (in part, along with Bush) why the muslims are viewed with suspicious and hateful eyes these days. I post to the forum as my voice against all the wrong thing happening in the world. I post because this is my means of 'standing up' against evil doers like Bush and Osama. I cannot go out and kill Osama, I cannot go out and tell the radicals to stop being radicals, they might end up killing me.

The moderate muslims also work, eat, sleep, pay taxes and raise a family. Like any other american, they too need to think of family first rather than going on a crusade against the evil doers of their religion. And they do try to voice their opinion and condemn such acts of evil. Only difference is that it never makes the news because it wasn't 'exciting' news. However, if there is a group of radicals out in the streets who have nothing better to do and they r shouting slogans like, Death to America, then it makes the next day's headlines and is all over the media and internet. And then people question the moderate muslims as to why they dont stop these extremists.

And for the most part, most of the moderate muslims live away from the countries and cities which have these extremists as leaders and who impose sharia rules to their people.

One solution could be to forget the news and media for a second and try to see for yourself if the muslim guy in your neighbourhood is a terrorist or not. If he is not (most likely) then you are safe and you have nothing to worry about as far as your and your neighbourhood's safety is concerned. And as for the terrorists outside your cities, let the government worry abt them.

Hello Half_Minded, and thanks for your intelligent contribution.

I would be grateful if you could answer this question for me: does the concept of the Umma, that is the totality of muslims override national loyalties? Would you say that you were American first, or a muslim first?

I'm not from the US, but now live in Canada and it is my perception that here, at least, people tend to be better integrated into society than the UK, which is my homeland. Which brings me to my second question:

Do you think that the 'melting pot' of US-style integration is better than the 'multi-cultural' approach in the UK? A recent British poll appeared to show that at least a small minority of muslims are conflicted when it comes to a war on terrorism.
link

TD

i guess this is a good reason not to talk about bush


www.abovetopsecret.com...

The more conservative-minded Americans typically support Bush, while the liberal-minded Americans who don't like him tend to be less violent than the conservatives, and less likely to do anything more than preach disgust for him or protest.

Okay, call that a generalization, but thats my best guess.

It depends on the situation actually. Ill give you example from my own family. I am from a muslim family from india. As you know, there have always been tensions between India and Pakistan (which is a muslim country). Even though, they are all the same as Pakistan was part of india before.

Now if there is a conflict on some physical region, then my parents seem to support india but if there is religion conflict then my parents support pakistan.

I study in US and I have a lot of friends from India of different religion. And when I say lot, I mean a lot. We have this little Indian community thing going on. And from what I have seen, every muslim guys considers himself Indian first and muslim second. Infact, that goes for the non-muslim friends too.

The younger generation is very different now. They have friends from different religions. They are more patriotic towards country first, then religion.
The older people do however seem to be inclined more towards religion.

But hey, the new generation is the one who will shape the future. So, I guess the whole extremism thing in Islam is fading away slowly.

Concept of Umma is very simple. In Islam, there were different prophets for different times and different people. Every prophet had his own set of followers. He was the messenger for the people, who would guide the people, 'appointed' to him, to the right path. Prophet Mohammad was the last prophet and it was said that every human being till the end of the world (Judgement Day) is his Umma. Thats why every muslim follows prophet mohammad and his teachings. Muslims are expected to spread their religion to every soul on earth because everyone is under prophet muhammad's umma. Non-muslim people are considered as the people who have lost the right path and therefore it is the duty of every muslim to bring everyone to the 'right path'.

So its more like saying that we are human. People consider themselves human first then comes the race and distinction. However, Umma includes every single person on earth, therefore umma = humans. To answer your question, muslims are required to consider themselves muslims first, everything else second.

But we all know that its not the case because not every muslim follows islam wholeheartedly. out of those who follow, there are moderates and extremists.
Moderates, as I described earlier, look at the situtation first. Extremists however are way too engrossed in Islam and consider every single word in the Quran as the absolute final word.

Contrary to popular belief, Extremists are rare in number and even out of those, only the uneducated and backward people are the ones who actually commit murder and use sharia law.



The link you posted shows a survey. First of all, I do not look at surveys because they dont give the actual picture. Just a few people cannot speak for the world population.

But notice, I did not say whether the survey was right or wrong.

I agree that many muslims do support the 'terrorists' because in their eyes, the terrorist is US government.

These people do not want the US army in their land. They don't want US dictating them what to do. They don't want US culture affecting them and destroying their culture. They don't like how US misuses its power.

If you put yourself in their shoes you would understand. Lot of people across America support the Iraq war even though people are dying everyday. Innocent people. What would you think about them?

If some country puts its military in the US against the will of the people, then wat wud americans do?

People did not like saddam but he was ruling over a country which required someone like him to keep the people from fighting with each other. After US attacked, there was no one to stop them and now they are fighting (Shia's and Sunnis). US soldiers cannot control them. They are dying too.

Its like India and Pakistan. If it werent for nukes and other countries, these two countries would destroy each other.

If you think that middle east is jealous of american freedom and success then think again. Middle east has so much oil. And these arabs are rich people. They have nice houses, nice cars, police doesnt touch them, they have a life people could only dream of. Why wud they be jealous of America. My parents live in Kuwait. There are no taxes in kuwait. Both my bro and dad work in kuwait. They both have free housing, free dental, free health, free car, free gas, high salary, no tax on salary. Infact, my bro got offers from US and UK but he refused.

This is the benefits given to immigrants. Imagine the benefits, the citizens enjoy. Yet Americans somehow feel that muslims and arabs are jealous of american freedom and want to attack american because of jealousy.

Its very clear what US is doing. If you look at history and compare the current situation you will get your answer.

Muslims living across the world blend in with society very well. I even created a post titles 'How many muslims you know?'. The post was meant to see wat an average muslim family is like and to see the opinion of people regarding them.
I was not surprised to see that 99% was positive replies. Which itslef is proof that muslims can blend into society and culture just like anhy other human being. There are exceptions but then there always are exception.

Muslims have no such problem of living peacefully with their neighbours but they do have a problem when they are constantly being criticized and looked down upon with suspicion.

[edit on 15-10-2006 by half_minded]

HMMMMMMMM















There is apparently no reason to argue it as you stated...

The entire world is arguing it just fine, and the Muslims are making the case for us.

Semper

I think that most Americans are good people who will gladly welcome any good people to their neighborhood no matter the religon. The only thing problem is that we have rules in this country that if someone comes here they must follow. For instance we do not allow Wife beating and Genital mutilation that some religons practice, and if that is what some want they should not come here. Everyone should get to know the people around them and make a effort to understand that everyone has their quirks.

Semper,

You have conveniently picked up random new clippings from different times to show 'proof' for your argument.

I could do the same.

For example, the guy who shot a SIKH guy after 9/11 thinking he was taleban. Shows that these violent people have nothing better to do in life and are completely ignorant. They are backward people with lack of education. And they can be of ANY RELIGION. If some muslims do something in the name of Islam even though its actually against Islam, Muslims are not to blame. And this kind of things happen everyday. You have merely shown the news clipping with only one side of the story.

Christian burn mosque, muslim burn church. However, 'muslim burn church' becomes next day headline in bold letters so that Bush can show the world that muslims are aggressive people.



Wife beating? Please do some research. Genital mutilation as you call it has a scientific name, Circumcision and its supposed to be healthy. Please do not come here and post some random stuff of which you have no knowledge of. You can't expect anyone to understand you when its clear than you have made no effort to understand the others.

You know that Americans are good people because you live around them. I have lived around muslims and Arabs, Indians, Asians, Americans and they all seem same to me. Human!

half-minded
Yes wife beating, some religons think they have the right even when they are in this country.
The Genital mutilation I am talking about is Female so maybe you should research before you jump to any conclusions.
path.org...
www.care.org...

[edit on 15-10-2006 by factfinder38]

I....

Emphasis on "I" was NOT comparing...

You stated this..



I simply replied with several of the THOUSANDS or news articles portraying the "Peaceful" religion engaged in violent actions.

As to whether or not the United States does as well, was not a concern in quoting your own words.

Is it that you feel the Muslims have the right to kill Nuns, burn Churches and Kill because someone else is being violent?
Is it your contention that two wrongs make a right?

Are you aware that there are currently 20 major armed conflicts being waged around the world and Muslims are engaged in EVERY single one? The United States, i.e. Bush is only in 2..

Who are the "Moderates?"

Semper

With all due respect. Wives get beat from every religon. You ever see a fight at an Irish houshold in cabbagetown? Man, the wife took it, the husband took it. Everyone took it. Then they went to church the next day. Beating your wife doesn't happen because of the book you prey too, or the invisible friend you have. It happens because the man is too much of a jerk, and too wrapped up into his own crap to realize that no one has a right to strike another - even if it is your wife.

You can post example after example of people who use the Koran, or any book to justify violence. BUt those individuals are violent individuals who happen to be in a certain religon. The are not violent because of their religon. Are all christians child molestors? We can point to excessive examples of that, but comman sense shows that these are sick people who happen to be hiding in the church, not sick because of the church.

As for the female circumsizing. I don't agree with it either, but I don't agree with the male version as well. It seems only hypocritical to speak ill of one side, while not decrying the other as well. Are Jews as bad as these people are to you? Is circumsizing a male, better/worse than circumsizing a female? If one is wrong then isn't the other as well?

These so called extremists and terrorists are NOT muslims. In clear words. These people misinterpret the Quran and do things which are exactly the opposite of what the Quran says. Quran does not approve of killings unless it is in self defense. People very conveniently take sentences out of the Quran and misinterpert it or take it out of context to prove their point.

Quran permitted the prophet and his followers to kill in self defense because at that time Islam was new and the prophet faced lot of opposition. There were constant threats against him and he was attacked frquently. Quran clearly states that murderers, robbers, etc. go to Hell because they commit crimes which are considered BIG crimes in Islam.

Now if some backward class of people who think they r muslims kill people for watever reason claiming that Quran permits them to, then they are not really muslims. So stop blaming the muslims for everything.

And these news articles were portraying violence done in name of Islam however you fail to show that violence is commited in the name of other religions also on a daily basis. Western media fails to put any light on those and constantly tries to show the 'muslim violence' to promote more hatred and anger towards all muslims.

If one muslim commits a crime then why is it okay to blame him, his muslim friends, his family and every muslim in the world for that crime?

Criminals are criminals, regardless of religion.

Violence in the name of religion is always because of conflict of religious beliefs. So obviously there is also another side to every story. People however fail to see the other side and are quick to blame the muslims as if it is always them who must be at fault.



Please state as to where I said it was okay for muslims to do that? Also please enlighten me by quoting where I said that 2 wrongs make a right.

I will explain once again. There is always 2 sides to a story. But as soon as a muslim is involved, people automatically assume it must be his fault. Please stop giving in to the propoganda of the western news and media. Try to see things for what they really are. Piece of advice......if you wanna know wats happening in the world, get out of US and visit some other country and see things for urself.



Maybe its because muslims make up a large population of this world and that most of the wars are in the middle east which is muslim majority population. Most of the wars in the middle east started by US, provoked by US, or aided by US.

Just because muslims are involved in a war does not automatically put them at fault.

Lot of muslim countries are against having US military in their countries. Palestine, Pakistan, etc. are fighting for the land that was once theirs. They are fighting the people occupying THEIR land. Government of some countries have allowed US to place their military which the people do not agree with and therefore fight for.

Muslims are constantly provoked and when they raise their voice, they are labelled terrorists. US is slowly gaining control over the biggest oil reserves owned by muslims and they expect that muslims should just sit quite. Invading countries on basis of lies and killing so many muslims everyday and the US thinks muslims should not revolt otherwise they are terrorists.

Western media and news constantly keeps portraying muslims in a bad light and showing that it is only the muslims who are terrorists. They do this for propoganda and so that they can fill every non-muslim in the world with hatred against muslims. So that when they wanna attack a muslim country, they can conveniently call them terrorists and invade them and take control of their resources.

How is that the world has started looking down upon US and BUSH. Maybe they are all stupid and only americans r smart people who know everything because FOX news tells them exactly what is happening in the world. Get real.



Moderates is a word labelled by western media. There is no such thing as moderates. Muslims are muslims, not terrorists. Terrorists are not muslims. Even the muslims who are very religious are not crazy people who wud just blow people up. Quran does not tell them to kill people. They use the quran and Islam to 'justify' what they are doing so that they can gain support of the muslim population. Besides, lot of these so called terrorists are not even terrorists. If US is not leaving their country then they have the right to fight for freedom. They will achieve it by any means necessary. Even if it means blowing themselves up.

US can however invade countries and kill thousands of people, yet no one call US the terrorist. The only difference between the so called terrorists and US government is that US kills people 'legally' and by abuse of power.

As far as I know, 9/11 and other big terrorist attacks are not done by terrorists but the government itself, so that they can use the chaos to influence people's mind and fulfill their own personal goals.

[edit on 15-10-2006 by half_minded]

Also a reminder to you Semper,

This topic is about why people criticize moderates of not standing up against extremists. Please base your questions and arguments only on that topic and not stray.

You seem to be on every one of my threads but you always end up straying from the actual topic.

If possible, please quote me from my post and argue points on that rather than going into a completely different discussion.

If you do not agree with the reasoning of why moderates do not stand up for islam then feel free to debate with me but dont give me a post of news clipping about terrorism done in the name of Islam because it has nohing to do with my argument.

Very well said Waiting2awake. I think you explained it pretty well.

Wife beating......lol......its funny when ppl have nothing else.......they try to attack Islam with the wife beating crap.

Men beat their wife because they are pussies who probably got picked on in school and are just trying to prove to themselves that they are strong enough because they can beat up a woman.

I have never met a muslim in my life who beats his wfe. I know hell lot of muslims, in the middle east, none beat their wife.

It's disturbing to see you deny that Muslims are perpetrating violence in the name of Allah. However.. to address your original post..



Roughly 50% voted AGAINST Bush in the last election. Many stood up against Bush. Many STILL stand up against his policies. Your point makes no sense. If you look at recent polling, a majority of americans disaprove of his handling of the situation.

So, I guess that answers your question. The rest of your original post and the resulting arguement detracts from the real point, and that being Bush has MANY MILLIONS of people that OPENLY oppose him and his policies.

Its disturbing to see that you fail to realize that violence is being commited in the name of other religions also. Violence is also being commited in the name of 'war on terror'. However, you dont see that making headlines. US soldiers kill iraqis and they become heroes and if Iraqis kill soldiers, they become terrorists. Purely a matter of perspective.

I already told you. You cannot commit a crime and then blame it on the religion.

If I murdered people then told police that HankMcCoy asked me to do it. They wud still sentence me, not u.

Islam does not allow murder. People murdering are NOT muslims, they are just criminals. And I dont always hold them at fault because you have to look at both sides of story. I dont agree with violence but people fighting back for freedom against oppressors are soldiers, not terrorists.

If Iraqi soldiers were in your streets with guns, you would fight them too. US soldiers are in the Iraqi streets with guns, Iraqis are fighting back. No one likes war in their backyard. US is not freeing iraqi people. Infact there is nothing US helped Iraq with. Iraq is much worse than before.



So if Bush has half his citizens against him and his policies then why is he allowed to go to war with countries and commit genocide. I can ask the same question to all americans. Why don't the 'Bush haters' stand up against Bush?

In my post, I discuss the criticism that muslims have to face because they are not stopping terrorists when the people who criticize are themselves guilty of same thing. Your replies however have failed to show me why muslims are being constantly criticized.

Please point out where in my original post have I detracted from the real point?
For that matter, Since I started the thread and the orginal post is supposed to be my opinion and argument, how do YOU decide what MY real point is?

Everything I post is my 'real 'point since its the first post. You are supposed to debate on the points I post. I may have more than 1 point in my thread. That does not mean I am detracting from the 'real' point because the 'real' point is my WHOLE thrad. Got what i am saying?

If you want to have your own 'real point' then start a thread.

I see myself falling into your trap of 'point out where I said yadda yadda', but here it comes anyway..



Though you never used a question mark, you actually asked a question here. This question, when coupled with your opening remark, form the basis of the topic and overall intention of the original post. This is what I chose to point out, as it is the only QUESTION you have actually raised in a post full of argument fodder. Although, maybe that is all this thread is looking for in the first place, after I reread the title it becomes apparant.

For someone that is trying to repair goodwill and erase Osama's evils.. you sure aren't very diplomatic.

I didnt use a question mark for a reason. I was trying to show that its ridiculous to ask moderate muslims to stand up against extremists becasue its the same as asking every american to stop bush from going to war. 50% were against Bush and 50% muslims are against 'extremists'. So basically my point was to show that criticizing 'moderates' is pointless and expecting them to stop 'extremists' is ridiculous.

And the 'point out....yada yada' is not a trap but a valid request. You cannot just say something about me and not provide atleast a quote or some reasoning to backup ur accusations.

And let me explain it one more time. The 'real point' of the thread is determined by the original post. Anything posted after that should be directly related to the original thread and not detract from it. However, you cannot say that 'the last sentence of my original post had nothing to do with the first sentence'. Because the WHOLE original post comprises the point of the thread. Any replies that follow should stick to the points discussed in the original post.

2 things, half-minded.

1. Prove that the US is in anyway stealing oil from the middle east.
2. Are you so stupid to not understand the reason we are still in that craphole Iraq is because those morons can't stop murdering each other over religious differences?

If you haven't figured it out yet no one wants to be in Iraq anymore. If it was up to the American people we would be pulling out tommorow. Those idiot's lives are not worth ANY of our soldier's lives.