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US electronic warfare useless against Iranian tech?

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posted on Oct, 12 2006 @ 11:35 AM
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The below article from Debka seems to suggest that the Iranians will be able to neutralise Western electronic warfare in any future conflict.. If true, point 3 is a real worry. Debka doesn't obtain their information from journalists apparently.

Excerpt from:
www.debka.com...


DEBKAfile Exclusive: American electronic warfare experts in Israel to find out how Hizballah’s Iranian systems neutralized Israeli EW

August 23, 2006, 3:18 PM (GMT+02:00)

DEBKA-Net-Weekly 266 b> DNW issue out on Friday, Aug. 25.i> DEBKAfile on Aug. 23 adds: The American EW experts are interested in four areas.
1. The Israeli EW systems’ failure to block Hizballah’s command and communications and the links between the Lebanese command and the Syria-based Iranian headquarters.
2. How Iranian technicians helped Hizballah eavesdrop on Israel’s communications networks and mobile telephones, including Israeli soldiers’ conversations from inside Lebanon.
3. How Iranian EW installed in Lebanese army coastal radar stations blocked the Barak anti-missile missiles aboard Israeli warships, allowing Hizballah to hit the Israeli corvette Hanith.
4. Why Israeli EW was unable to jam the military systems at the Iranian embassy in Beirut, which hosted the underground war room out of which Hassan Nasrallah and his top commanders, including Imad Mughniyeh, functioned.

DEBKA-Net-Weekly 266:i> Until the watershed date of July 12, 2006, when the Hizballah triggered the Lebanon War, Israel was accounted an important world power in the development of electronic warfare systems – so much so that a symbiotic relationship evolved for the research and development of many US and Israeli electronic warfare systems, in which a mix of complementary American and Israeli devices and methods were invested. In combat against Hizballah, both were not only found wanting, but had been actively neutralized, so that none performed the functions for which they were designed. This poses both the US and Israel with a serious problem in a further round of the Lebanon war and any military clash with Iran.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.



[edit on 12-10-2006 by JamesinOz2]




posted on Oct, 12 2006 @ 01:21 PM
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Public schooling right???

Orangetom



posted on Oct, 12 2006 @ 03:35 PM
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All the brilliant forcasters do the same thing every time- try to debunk and downplay. I can vividly recall how they all said the American tech would be ruined in the Iraqi environment. HAHAHAHAHAHA!



posted on Oct, 14 2006 @ 10:19 AM
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This is twice now that you have bashed public schooling. Did you go to public schools, Orange Tom? If not, then how do you know they are so screwed up?



posted on Oct, 14 2006 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by Ford Farmer
This is twice now that you have bashed public schooling. Did you go to public schools, Orange Tom? If not, then how do you know they are so screwed up?


I have bashed public schools way more than twice on ATS and BTS. Please give proper credit.

IN answer to your question...or query...Yes I did go to public schools and have spent the rest of my time here on earth getting over it.

Now ..to clarify what I mean by public schooling ...please substitute everywhere you see "public schooling " The expression "Television education". This should clear things up quite a bit.

Or to put it as best I can in the words of the Olde Ones who taught me to get over public school/television education.... "Dont believe everything you hear and less than Half of what you see."

Hence I believe some of the posters on these sites are on to something ...by the motto...." Deny Ignorance." Not all of them but many. Many of us are held back by the straight jacket of public education...or public education thinking. THe very rote which this thinking limits by its nature..Its fingerprint...its tell tale limits...what is not in it.



Thanks for your post,
Orangetom



posted on Oct, 14 2006 @ 02:43 PM
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From what I've read on ATS, many people debunk DEBKA as not being credibe. So I guess there you hvae it.



posted on Oct, 14 2006 @ 03:34 PM
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As Iran has zero high tech industry I very much doubt their EW capability is much to write home about.

I suspect the Israeli problems with the Iranian proxy known as Hezbulla, was more due to the operating environment and the fact that Hezbulla was able hide behind the civilian population.

Regards



posted on Oct, 14 2006 @ 04:21 PM
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The usual hecklers are doing what they are always doing, and it's simply disappointing.

As usual, I'll do my part.

Interesting article JamesinOz2.

Since the very predictable reflex of the hecklers is to discredit the information source, I quickly collected a few links on the DEBKA site.

www.freerepublic.com...

www.nationaldefensemagazine.org...

stripes.com...

www.jihadwatch.org...

www.embargos.de...

foi.missouri.edu...

www.wired.com...

Interesting stuff. There are some questions on Mossad connection, but interesting nevertheless.

So far it looks good though.



posted on Oct, 14 2006 @ 07:14 PM
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The Israeli results in Lebanon.. are the same fingerprint that American Results are in Iraq. It would be reasonable to conclude that the same people are running both programs...for and twords the same results. This is the same results America got in Vietnam..where the intent was to keep the war and conflict going ..not to end it. but to manage it...to some conclusion by keeping the conflicts going...never ending.
One of the fingerprints used is that limits are imposed on one side while they are not imposed on the other.

It never seems to occur to anyone what would happen if the Israelis took the boxing gloves off and went bare knuckled. Same with the Americans. Both of these groups are being forced politically to operate with Boxing gloves on. The other side is bareknuckled. This is a concept which seems to escape most of the views in these articles so prevalent today.
This is also a formula for keeping a conflict going ..year after year after year after year. This should be obvious in the case of the Israelis. How many wars have they fought to another stalemate.....in the intrest of the "World" and "Getting along". Only public education can dumb a people down so much they lose sight of this point.

Sooner of later this buisness is going to have to be finished?? Sooner or later. All the politicking is doing is postponing the invetable...and doing so in the favor of politics not these nations involved...nor these people.

Sooner or later ..some of you are going to see through this farce...about limits placed on one side and not another ..and the medias and think tanks avoiding this view in favor of the body politic.

Sooner or later the Israelis and the United States are going to realize that they cannot operate with the Boxing Gloves on anymore...and go to ..bare knuckled.
If you can understand this concept ..then look back at the body politic and the media and think tanks who shill for them...and see what they really are.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 08:55 AM
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I'm always keen to learn about alternative angles on any information put before us by various entities, groups and agencies. Debka have a history of providing very interesting facts that are later validated, even taking into account their angle on the subject matter.

In this case if what they're saying is correct then it would seem to cast a shadow on Western prowess in electronic warfare, which would be exposed if push comes to shove in the Gulf. Naval assets in particular- it would appear - may be at risk if some of Debka's claims are true. I'm no expert on electronic warfare, have no qualms about being proven wrong, and hope that Debka are innacurate in this case. Oh, and I had a private education btw, not that it makes any difference.

[edit on 15-10-2006 by JamesinOz2]



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 09:40 PM
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[edit on 15-10-2006 by Ford Farmer]



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 09:40 PM
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Well orange Tom you got me there. I understand now what you mean. I really dont trust the news anymore.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 10:04 PM
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Lets give credit where credit is due, which appears to be iskander's Debka defence "motto," as per his post above.

Originally posted by iskander
Since the very predictable reflex of the hecklers is to discredit the information source, I quickly collected a few links on the DEBKA site.

Heads up, whether you wish to admit it or not, in most cases, Debka deserves the discrediting heckling and "hecklers" it recieves.

Assuredly and quantifiably, Debka is the first to report a lot of things in their headlines, but also assuredly, and unfortunately for Debka, being the first to report does not necessarily add to their accuracy percentage, for most of what they do first report does not turn out to be accurate and/or wholly true.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 10:18 PM
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Assuredly and quantifiably, Debka is the first to report a lot of things in their headlines, but also assuredly, and unfortunately for Debka, being the first to report does not necessarily add to their accuracy percentage, for most of what they do first report does not turn out to be accurate and/or wholly true.


Yep. Absolutely. Debka seems to be a great source for bogus propaganda..

As stated though, they do seem to have many military sources with the IDF and Mossad, so when it is accurate, they often get it first.

On topic, this is not the first report about Iranian EW i have heard. Apparently, they are rather competant in this regard..



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 02:44 AM
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Seekerof, be a pal, stop putting words into my mouth.


Lets give credit where credit is due, which appears to be iskander's Debka defence "motto," as per his post above.


My defense "motto"? Are you going to accuse me of sorcery next? Or heresy, for saying that the earth is round and that it revolves around the sun?


Heads up, whether you wish to admit it or not, in most cases, Debka deserves the discrediting heckling and "hecklers" it recieves.


Here's a question for you Seekerof, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? I've pulled links which discuss Debka, a source that I'm personally not familiar with, you did what? Presented your "opinion"? Thanks, well done, let's file it as "another one".

Oh wait, there's more.


Assuredly and quantifiably, Debka is the first to report a lot of things in their headlines, but also assuredly, and unfortunately for Debka, being the first to report does not necessarily add to their accuracy percentage, for most of what they do first report does not turn out to be accurate and/or wholly true.


Any intentions on your part to provide a SINGLE example of such an occurrence? Any at all? Or is just another of your "opinions". Just asking.

On this note, I'll share what my pops told me once.

"Come here sonny, and listen up. I hate lazy bums. They're no good. They're the kind of useless punks that skip school to climb roofs and spin of the heads of hard working people that build the very roofs they're standing on in the first place, and if I catch you skipping school again, I'll personally tear your own head of, and won't give it back until you do enough work to deserve it."

I listened, but apparently to some such elementary concepts are totally foreign.

p.s. If I'm wrong, I'll eat my own words with humble apologies. No skin of my back.



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 03:22 AM
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Originally posted by paraphi
As Iran has zero high tech industry I very much doubt their EW capability is much to write home about.

I suspect the Israeli problems with the Iranian proxy known as Hezbulla, was more due to the operating environment and the fact that Hezbulla was able hide behind the civilian population.

Regards


I didn't realise we had an Iranian economics and industrial expert here. Wow!

Please give us an insight into how you know "Iran has zero high tech industry". If that was the case, how would they go about producing all the weapon systems they have?

At a glance, they appear to be alot further advanced than you give them credit for:


Main industries

petroleum, petrochemicals, car manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, textiles, cement and other construction materials, food processing (particularly sugar refining and vegetable oil production), metal fabrication, armaments, electronics

Manufacturing

The last two decades have seen the development of the Iranian defence industry. In West Asia, Iran has the largest car industry with production crossing the 1 million mark in 2005 and also the largest operational stock of industrial robots

Services

The services sector has seen the greatest long-term growth in terms of its share of GDP, but the sector remains volatile. Iran has developed a biotechnology, nanotechnology, electronic (especially for home appliances), aerospace, energy and pharmaceuticals industries. Iran has also been progressively opening its telecommunications and financial sectors to the global competition. Iran has a great potential in mining, tourism and the technologies of information sectors (IT, ICT)



Your not one of these "America is great, everyone else are cave men" types, are you?

A little research before you post is all I ask, instead of spouting off crap.



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 06:57 AM
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If what Debka are saying is correct, and similar EW jamming tech is used in a future Gulf conflict involving USN ships then there could be serious consequences I'd imagine.



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 10:23 AM
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In my very biased opinion the news media is nothing but a shilling instrument for the body politic. Yes they occasionally accurately report the news but mostly it is political commentary or slanting the news for thier respective partys. All of the media...all of them. And public education is paid for by the body politic. So what do you think you are going to get from public education ...just more news bias. They are not going to teach you enough information to decode the news or the body politic itself..no way. They will never give you enough information to put light on them. Understand??
I am not just speaking of the News in the United States. I am speaking of the news everywhere. They are all doing it. Short wave listening taught me this long before the advent of home computers..before I could even afford a home computer. Its just up to us ..to learn to navigate this maze of information/disinformation.

Ford Farmer...you could describe that of which I am speaking as "Electronic Warfare" How to jam ...countermeasure our natural thinking processes with the politicially correct or authorized processes. Which shell is the pea under?? It never occurs to anyone the pea is not under any of the shells.

While I am speaking of Electronic Warfare...do any of the posters here actually have any idea of what the Electronic Warfare capability is of the United States???
Any of you working in the trade/trades??? I am not talking about what one reads on line..but actually in some arena of the trade??

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 12:14 PM
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Other news agencies have also been reporting that Hezbollah tried to jam Israeli comms and was also listning into there conversations :

Links1 for Newsday


I wouldn't really be surprised if comms from America, Israel or any other could be blocked/jammed becuase it's not really that hard to do so.

All comminucations basiclly is in the form of a 1 or a 0. In radio comms this would be represented as either FSK or ASK in the form of frequency shift keying or amplitude shift keying altough military radio will use FSK becuase it provides a better higher quality data stream. Data is "transported"/sent in basically packets/frames which usally sometimes will either be raw data frame with possibly some sort of error checking such as parity or even CRC.

The biggest mistake people make is to assume you need to block 100% of the data to jam communications. This is incorrect becuase communications equipment accepts data is packets/frames if you destory just even 25% of the data within the packet/frame you destory the whole frame and render it redundent at this point even parity correction and even block check correction will not help the data because they can only correct 1 or 2 bits in a frame/packets or block of data. If by any chance the communications equipment accepts damged/undamged data and decides to use it any way it would be so degraded that it would offer zero battle field value.

The easiest and cheepest way to jam/destory data is by making a noise generater. You need to know 2 things about what you want to jam with this. The first thing you need to know is how strong your singal has to be to be effective and the second is what freqency you need to operate in to distrurbe the signals from the enemy comms device.

"Hacking" into codes and decoding them are much more difficult though compared to jamming. To hack data you first of all need to lock onto a frequency range that the enemy operated in them you need to analyse the data on some sort of computer. Basically in todays world the computers you buy from your local shops are so powerfull they are better then anything the military companies could ever offer you and with new interface devices such as fire wire and USB2 etc... there is no need to custom designed interfaces. What weapons companies do is just use off the shelf components and re package them in military grade casing to provide shock resitance and protection to the screen and then they add listning devices to read incomming radio signals and use the processor to decode the encrypted codes.

For example laptops that are desinged to be treated like crap in mountain regions, cold weather, snow, water splashs, hot deserts etc... :
Panasonic Toughbook

Or the Gebbok Max:
www.slate.com...

and :
www.gobookmax.com...

There is enough power in your basic AMD athlon 64 powered laptop to decode 100% of any mobile radio system outthere. Thats why they now try to skip freqencies(frequency cycling). The real key to decode incomming data is to know the algorithm that encodes the data. If you somehow can get ahold of enemy radio equipment you can program you laptop computers to start brute force decoding of the data streams against all possible keys. You may not get instant real time data decryption and you may end up with a delay between recieving and decoding the data into usable information but it can be done.


[edit on 16-10-2006 by iqonx]



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 12:50 PM
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So how would you spot a frequency generator used in Jamming? Seems to me they would be pretty easy to spot back to the source since they dont have air cover/airborne from which to broadcast. Would it be a matter of finding/locating them and hitting them?

I believe this is how much of our airborne Jamming is done ..blanket jamming of whole frequency spectrums.

As to the other modes of broadcasting or computers..I am not that computer savy to comment on those other than to say it is a matter of time lag...acquiring the data and turning it into usable data.

Thanks,
Orangetom




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