U.S. Citizen Indicted for Treason put on FBI's "Most Wanted Terrorists" List, page 2
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reply posted on 13-10-2006 @ 12:26 AM by khunmoon
Believe me I'm as American(ized) as any one of you, European born and raised in a time without any in-betweens. I worry about the development in the US just as much as you do, but it makes me hopeful to see the respons this thread gets. Don't wanna lose no more friends, cause my dream are the same as yours. The American friends I had I made during the Vietnam War, but now another war makes me lose the ones I now have.

It all comes down to fear... fear of Big Brother. And he has grown so much bigger, more scary and must now be considered all-seing. Something he wasn't even near in the 60's. There really is a reason to be afraid now, but we cannot let fear subdue us - then we have lost before we ever stood up. And to me this story is about the ultimate ostracizing, the branding of the individual as an outcast.
Johnny can't come home no more, might be ok, if he chose to go himself - and that's it.

Not anymore, now you'll be prosecute for abandoning the green grass of home.

Isn't that a confinement of the rights of the individual?

I admit I don't know what he said on the videos, I've only seen clips, and I mean he just looks too outlandish for an American, enough forever to be expelled as such.

Djarums:
Not everything is Bush. This guy made a choice to abandon the US and assist a group who's goal is to kill Americans. That is treason. There is simply no free speech issue here.

I'm not sure about that, the D.A. stating "no information indicating that Gadahn was directly involved in planning or carrying out terrorist attacks". And I do think any member of a "democracy" has the right to suggest those in power to be overthrown - without necessarily forming a polititical party.

Pyros:
US Consitution, Article III, Section 3:
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

"levy" - this guy is not Paul Getty Jr., so what can he levy? Is it a "the pen is sharper than the sword"-issue?
"aid and comfort" - again, his family haven't had any contact to him for 10 years, so I don't think they send him money.
"the testimony of two witnesses" - who? Dubaya and Dirty Dick?

marg:
Scary times I see ahead of us regular Joes in our nation, when it seems that our political leaders can play with laws and definitions of words to suit their needs.
[...]
This new presidential choice of word as everything else is nothing than more striping of citizens rights, I guess our constitution is nothing more than a piece of paper as good as the one use in the toilet.
Now our government will tell who is an American and who is a traitor depending of personal needs at the moment.

Couldn't agree more. Ever heard of Stalin's Moscow Trials of the 30's? They were based on paranoia, not a grain of justice. Something along the same lines is about to happen in the US. Sad to say, they'll make McCarthy look like a paragon of virtue.

Lazarus:
A judgement sets precedence... the ever mighty overrule of the courts.
It is the gist of that precendence, and how it is interpreted, that will doom America, or add to its security...
[...]
But for the record... We do need clear language here... because I suspect, as do others, that we are in for some vietnamish years ahead... (as far as protests)

Again I hope so much, but for reasons of the Big Brother issue, I'm afraid there won't.
I've discussed the issue on other threads, and no matter how much people would like to take to the streets, they don't. Subdued by fear, bundled in debts.
A million+ gathered at the Washington Monument is history. They've learned the lesson, and will never let the people force them to retreat. Then they'll rather kill you - I'm afraid.


reply posted on 13-10-2006 @ 01:56 AM by khunmoon
Here's an interesting OP from yesterday's Washington Post


The Making of a Terror Rock Star

I am willing to lay you smooth odds that before today you had never heard of Adam Gadahn; that you never knew he's the American kook who appears in Al Qaeda videos; or that he was raised on goat ranch in California but now spews creepy rhetoric against the country of his birth. But now you and everyone else in the world knows those things, not because I am telling you them, but because our government has chosen to make this insignificant front-man a martyr, a terrorist rock star, another grim face of terror, by making him the first American in half a century to be charged with the capital crime of treason.

Here is what the Justice Department said...

..."The War on Terror is a fight for hearts and minds, and Gadahn gave himself to our enemies in al Qaeda for the purpose of being a central part of their propaganda machine. By making this choice, we believe Gadahn committed treason - perhaps the most serious offense for which any person can be tried under our Constitution."

Why has our government decided to turn this roadie for Osama bin Laden into a larger-than-life, twice-in-a-century example of the struggle against global terrorism? What has he done to merit what the feds call "perhaps the most serious" charge "under our Constitution"? Is appearing on a video enough, really, to support a capital treason charge? Why do it now? And how precisely does indicting this guy for treason make us safer from terrorists? Don't ask me. I just don't know.

If, as the feds say, they made their move now to counter the propaganda threat posed by Gadahn's participation in those videos than it seems to me that the Administration has just bolstered, and not diminished, that threat. By singling out Gadahn for treason-- remember, neither any of the U.S.-born "enemy combatants nor John Walker Lindh were ever so charged since 9/11-- the government has unilaterally and voluntarily elevated him into a sort of Terrorist's Hall of Fame. And that can only serve to increase both the scope and the power of his ugly message.

There are plenty of other federal crimes with which the Justice Department could have charged Gadahn and, indeed, along with the treason charge, Gadahn is said to now face a charge of providing material support to terrorists. The feds could have charged him with conspiracy. Heck, they could have charged him with the Kennedy Assassination because they have no idea where he is, or where he is likely ever to be, and thus have no reason to believe he will ever have to stand trial and face these charges. Moreover, if the purpose of the exercise was to help find Gadahn, then the government could have put him on its Most Wanted List (as it did today) without charging him with treason.

It just doesn't make sense. If you are going to charge a guy with the only crime specifically mentioned in the Constitution-- a crime federal prosecutors did not even use against Julius and Ethel Rosenberg when they spied for the Soviet Union-- at least do it in a case where you have a reasonable chance of getting the guy to trial and then sending him away to death row or to a prison somewhere. If you are going to turn an obscure spokesman into a national symbol, at least do it because you know in the end that you are going to win. This is not a workhorse move. This is a showhorse move. And right now it looks like just another curious move by an Administration that has made a habit over the past five years of turning unimportant, unworthy men into icons of injustice.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.



reply posted on 13-10-2006 @ 10:28 AM by thelibra
MemoryShock - Bah. We can mince words, and compliment each other all day, but come on, this is pretty cut and dry. There's a big difference between organizing a revolution against a tyrannical regime that has seized power and oppressed it's own people (which, btw, has not yet happened), and those who have decided to join a terrorist organization that specializes in the slaughter of innocent people.

You asking me (or anyone else) to "prove" that Al Qaeda wishes Americans harm is ridiculous. I'm not even going to address that point. It would take far more resources than the U.S. Government has to make up Al Qaeda and perpetuate the myth for 4 solid years. They may exagerate, they may exacerbate, they may exeed reasonable responses, but they can't have just made them up or so blatantly and repeatedly changed their messages.

I enjoy an intellecual debate and philosophical backtalk as much as the next guy, but this dude is a traitor, plain and simple, according to the letter of the law. And to compare him to our forefathers is, IMO, an insult to my history and my intelligence!

America's founders didn't base their revolution off bombings, murders, kidnapping, and destruction of innocent British civilians. They specifically targeted military and governmental installations, and even then only after lengthy attempts to resolve things peacefully.

And they weren't a splinter cell of the mainstream ideology, either! After NUMEROUS peaceful attempts to address the issues with King George, they peaceably assembled a continental congress, and even then required ALL 13 COLONIES TO UNANIMOUSLY AGREE TO REVOLUTION! This wasn't a handful of wackos that didn't like the current administration, and it wasn't a muderous den of madmen. It was representatives of an abused populace bent double under the oppression of a mad tyrant. There is a HUGE difference.

Look, I can't stand Bush. But he is NOT King George, and the man in these videos is no George Washington. Let's try to keep some grasp on reality and history instead of trying to make a poor hero out of scum.


reply posted on 13-10-2006 @ 02:32 PM by MemoryShock
Originally posted by the libra
You asking me (or anyone else) to "prove" that Al Qaeda wishes Americans harm is ridiculous


Missed my point.....I of course do not expect proof of their wishes....nor for their christmas lists' for that matter.

The statement in question was such as this...

Originally posted by Pyros
Al Qaeda desires the total destruction of our government and the forceful conversion of our population to Islam.


I seriously doubt that the day to day routine is bent upon those statements.....forceful conversion....there are countries in better proximity than the U.S. Why not start there?

My point centered upon the idealogical fear that the statement induced. More likely that the majority of Al-Qaeda have been told what to think....at certain oppurtune 'meetings.'......and then they focus on their othe, more human desires..........but to assume that their is an all abiding hatred akin to a Hollywood villain bent on taking over the world is ludicrous.....we forget that we are all indeed human and their may be human solutions......such as not taking their oil, for starters, to indulge our own hyper civilization, without any concern for the fact that the middleeast could use some of the application of its own resource.

In our quest for Iraqi democracy.....we have killed a sizable chunk of their civilian population. Who in Iraq is walking around believing that we have no respect for their way of life and desire only to forcefully convert their population to whatever idealogical goals we have...and failing that, we'll just kill them? Is that what we think over here?........NO!!!

My point was perception.....perspective......and an avoidance of terms that lead immediately to an emotional connotation......I understand wanting people to agree....but if someone says, "MurderDeathKill," than I am going to wonder why their choice of words....because as a third party particapant to the story...much less the event....


.......how can I say for sure, in either case?


reply posted on 13-10-2006 @ 03:47 PM by MemoryShock
Originally posted by thelibra
Okay, so you don't need proof AQ hates the USA and wants to kill innocent civilians.


www.abovetopsecret.com...

How many Iraqi civilians have died? How many more? This, on a war the U.S. started, based on a terrorist attack that arguably had anything to do with Iraq........and not arguably the civilians of Iraq. Have the civilians died at the hands of American soldiers? Yes and no.....I believe we would be hard pressed to define the actual ratio, but the underlying implication is that American involvement with their country still resulted in civilian deaths.......

Less than if Saddamn was in power....again, who knows.....but the fact remains, if Iraq happened to be in a position on a global (and corporate) scale, then we would probably hear more about the Americans killing Iraqi's whom did not deserve their fate.....

Originally posted by thelibra
This guy joins AQ, gets charged with treason, and some people have the gall to suggest he's like one of the original U.S. revolutionaries. To which I still adamantly disagree and take offense at. That about sum it up?


Not quite......I was trying to imply spin......not an equality. People can say things all they want....without a broad overview of the picture, why do we react the way we do? Why are we so quick to condemn as a third party involvement?

I would think that you would know this better than many of us here....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

We don't disagree, in actuality......I'm taking issues with the presentation......this board is fraught with expression that conveniently minimizes the big picture.....No Offense....


reply posted on 13-10-2006 @ 11:04 PM by khunmoon
by Nygdan:
: If this indictment will hold in court - and I'm afraid it will -


Huh?
This guy is clearly a traitor. Whats the problem here. Its a perfectly proper application of the law against treason. Hopefully they will catch him and execute him.

The Problem is: it the furthermost charge in the civic penal system and should be reserved for those who shall deserve it, something far more sinister than just reading from a script dressed in an outlandish outfit. It draws the line so tight that soon any of us might get cornered. The traitor label should never be applied on rethorics only.

Let me give an example from Denmark (yes, we have terror laws too now, though we don't call them patriotic). A young kid in a net-cafe wanted to show off his guts to the other kids, so he writes a mail to the State Department designated to the PM. It read: "You'll be dead within 9 days". Of cause they traced him in a few hours and within a week had express sentenced him to some month in jail. A 16-year old kid!

In other more relaxed and less paranoid times such a kid would have been send home for a round of good old time spanking. And thats what I think this kid Adam should have been too 10 years ago, before he got this far. Just a parental advice.

Now we are creating hardened criminals, that devalued linquistic can label terrorists, and to me it seems as policies, us&euro alike, these days aim of confining the personal space to the choking point, so we all by the choice of the rulers in power can fit into any terrorist scheme. THAT's the Agenda!

...and of course, these terror laws are set up to undercover introduce the Police State -->the HIDDEN agenda.


reply posted on 14-10-2006 @ 01:13 AM by Nygdan
Originally posted by marg6043
Now why him? doesn't that smells suspicious to you?

Clearly, they are using it in part as a political statement, 'go to foreign countries, work with al-qaida, and you're going to be hunted down and executed'.

How long it will take when traitor becomes widely use and apply to anybody else beside somebody joining a terrorist group that goes against our country's government.

I can understand the fear, but, this is not much of a 'slippy slope' arguement, this guy clearly a neatly fits the definition of traitor. It'd be like an american that defected to the soviets and helped them attack the US.

Doesn't people that goes against the policies of the US and is an American can be tagged a traitor?

He's working with an organization that is carrying out terror attacks on americans.
This is an agenda.

Yes, to let people know that if they fly to afghanistan to work with al-qaida, that they will be allowed to come back to america for their execution. ITs a good policy.

khunmoon
it the furthermost charge in the civic penal system and should be reserved for those who shall deserve it,

Right, such as people that go overseas to work with organizations that are attacking america.
something far more sinister than just reading from a script dressed in an outlandish outfit.

He is working with al-qaida, therefore, he's a traitor. Doesn't matter if he read a script, planted a bomb, or became bin ladin's chef.
It draws the line so tight that soon any of us might get cornered.

....
He's working with al-qaida. Theres a helluva difference between people that work for organizations that actively plot and carry out attacks on america and americans, and someone that strongly disagrees with US policy but...doesn't start killing americans. I mean, anyone thats in danger of being 'caught up' by this kind of action deserves to be shot, because you'd have to be working with al-qaida.
A young kid in a net-cafe wanted to show off his guts to the other kids, so he writes a mail to the State Department designated to the PM. It read: "You'll be dead within 9 days".

Well, if instead of a cafe it was inside a bunker with bin ladin, he should be worried.
". Of cause they traced him in a few hours and within a week had express sentenced him to some month in jail. A 16-year old kid!

Good, serves the nitwit right. YOu can't go around making death threats to people and not go to jail.
and of course, these terror laws are set up to undercover introduce the Police State

.... So in order to prevent the police state, we have to let people be permited to work with groups like al-qaida, which, in case it hasn't set in for anyone, plans and carries out murderous attacks on america and americans?
Can we at least arrest bin ladin without being fascists?
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