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655,000 Iraqis killed since start of war

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posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 03:45 PM
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Semperfoo,

Who are the extremist? Because every time I look on the TV they all look like Iraqis to me. Perhaps what you mean is we should wipe out Iraqi population and like that, it will be nobody to fight each other.

More troops in Iraq? So more American troops casualties can become part of . . . what you call it, “wars are not pretty” yeah specially wars fought on one side alone, because Iraq never declared war against US and they never asked Bush to liberate them either.

That fact makes the whole “war in Iraq” nothing more than a big lie and the most horrible thing that our nation has done to that country and its people.


[edit on 16-10-2006 by marg6043]




posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 04:05 PM
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I am short on time and must be brief but...

After posting the opening thread I backed out a bit and watched it develope.

*There have been some good points and counter points.. But overall I must insist that this number even if only at 50% accuracy leaves 300 thousand Iraqis dead since the start of the war we declared and did so by choice .. and not neccessity.


*There is nothing inherently wrong with private oil companies trying to invest in new oil frontiers. It is gravely wrong to use the US military to achieve those goals.

*Halliburton and Cheneys connection are much more than mere coincidence and the news and internet are littered with Halluburtons screw-ups and screw-overs.


keep up the great discussion and I will reply in more depth if/ when I have some more time thanks for all the contributions so far....


tone23



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 04:44 PM
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The fact of the matter is that politicians are in the pay of the super rich and powerful and the politicians control the military and the wars that are being fought for control of natural resources and it will be a case of the strongets will win, but in reality there are no winners.

Politicians no longer represent the people, Bush and Blair do not represent their goverments, they are just mere puppets who's strings are firmly grasped by those who seek to rule the world. To them we are just drones that can be discarded when finished with.



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 05:26 PM
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Hello dbates, isn't it interesting how we keep bumping into each other?


I guess we should get to the bottom of this. This whole thing seems shady and sensationalized to me.


Nope, not really, because Bush personally singed a new law, which blanket covers his entire administration, the Army, the CIA, the Pentagon, and the rest of "his" people from War Crimes Investigations.

How cool is that? I'm surprised Hitler didn't think of that, just kind of sign a law which says "you can't question if I gave orders to massacre an entire peoples."

Really imaginative democracy there, isn't it?

What do you think it all means? Especially together with the direct order to not count bodies in Iraq? Gee, something sure does smell fishy here...




Debunked

This all politically timed to influence the U.S. elections coming up. Read this article just in from CNN (no friend of the current administration) regarding this outrageous report: (my bolding added)


centurion1211, man, I just didn't think of it this way. Let grab my shot gun, walk up to my neighbors house, blow the hinges of the door, shoot his wife and child, you know to "liberate" him from the burdens of the family life, and to "free" him from all those troublesome possessions.

That's what "freedom" and "democracy" is all about. Do you think the cops will show? That's right, I got to pay them all of first, or to threaten their own families with similar liberation.


Thats how the world works in Iraq and Afghanistan. I mean how did we spread democracy in Germany and Japan? It sure wasn't cheap in blood.


deltaBOY, when you grow up, spill your own blood, and see blood of your loved ones spilled, then you can say what the cost is. Germany and Japan were the aggressors and attacked first. Iraq and Afghanistan did NOT.


Yeah, it's all America's fault that Iraqi, Iranian, and Syrian extremists blow themselves up in a crowd of their fellow Muslims.


Yes, it is, because CIVIL war is exactly what happens when a nation is decapitated, army disbanded, and police forces disarmed.


This war should never have begun, but nobody forces these people to do what they do.


Are you insane? Yes, civil war ABSOLUTELY force people to do what ever it takes.

Oh God there's more,


655 thousand Iraqi’s have died in Iraq right?

Who donnit??

Come on be honest.

The topic should read 655,000 people have died in Iraq, Iraq’s genocide continues....

They are killing themselves.

And most look to the US ARMY?? blah..


Listen up all you little snotty kids, get your sheltered butts out of suburbia, go to your nearest ghetto, get your asses thoroughly kicked, and then talk about violence.

All such war mongering nonsense comes from weak little BOYS that never been as much as love tapped, and all they do is play video games all day WISHING they were GI Joe's.

As soon as mentally stable people get a taste of real violence, they want nothing to do with it for the rest of their lives.

So to all war mongers here, you are either attempting to compensate for your inner weakness, which is simply pathetic, or you should seriously look into getting psychiatric help.

Let me put it this way, violence and killing people is WRONG, and if your parents are to drunk or self absorbed to tell you that, go out and rent the movie called GANDHI.

If violence is your thing, get some gloves on and take your sweat time beating the crap out of each other, but shooting of your mouths about HUNDREDS of thousands of civilian casualties in a war for PROFIT is simply ANTI-HUMAN, unless off course you don't mind admitting to being animals.

If that is a fact though, then guys, be honest with your selves and come right out saying something like "hey, I think that killing people is really cool, I enjoy torturing little animals, I enjoy watching people suffer and fantasize about having the power to deliver such suffering my self, I think about it more often then I think about sex, I don't have any friends, I live in my mothers basement and watch violent pornography" and so forth.

Was that hard? I for one stand against all forms of violence, I've seen it, experienced it, I know it, and all I can say to all you curios minds out there that are really tempted by the taste of violence, the sooner you try it on your own back the sooner you'll either learn that it's not all fun like on TV, or you'll find your true calling as a serial killer, or a least a small time punk beating up on little kinds and raping little girls.

Does that make things clear for you guys? All I've said are not my words, all of it is easily found is Psychology 101, so pick up a book, knock your selves out and explore.



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Semperfoo,
Who are the extremist? Because every time I look on the TV they all look like Iraqis to me. Perhaps what you mean is we should wipe out Iraqi population and like that, it will be nobody to fight each other.
More troops in Iraq? So more American troops casualties can become part of . . . what you call it, “wars are not pretty” yeah specially wars fought on one side alone, because Iraq never declared war against US and they never asked Bush to liberate them either.
That fact makes the whole “war in Iraq” nothing more than a big lie and the most horrible thing that our nation has done to that country and its people.
[edit on 16-10-2006 by marg6043]


Hell the "extremist" im talking about are the ones willing to die for a buck.... Look innocent ppl die every day.. Are we a part of it.. If we look at it through your point of view then yes. Iraq wasnt supposed to be like this.. we were supposed to go in and come out with a quick decisive victory. We didnt plan for the sectarian violence to spread over the country like a great wild fire... That was where we F'ed up... The iraqis were very happy that Coalition troops were there after the fall of baghdad, there still are iraqis that are glad we are there... Thats something you wont here on the media outlets. but none the less its true. War is hell ppl... Blame bush all you want... Ill blame him with you. We will all blame him together if it truly makes you feel better.. But the fact is to cut and run now would send a bad message to not only the terrorists but to the enitre world! We are whats left of the great superpowers... We cannot let a bunch of third world barbarians who want to kill themselves just so they can kill innocent ppl push us around. Dont agree with me?. That is your god given right... That is what the young men and women are fighting for and dieing for! They are the ones in the middle of this whole mess... I support the war because i support them! Call it a lie call it whatever the F*** you want.... Its personal now...



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 12:24 AM
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semperfoo, you present a number of conflicting views here. I’m with you on some, and totally not with others.


Hell the "extremist" im talking about are the ones willing to die for a buck....


Like paid US armed forces personnel, PMCs mercenaries? Not a very good argument. True, insurgents, illegal combatants, etc, some get payed some don’t, that’s not the issue.


Look innocent ppl die every day.. Are we a part of it.. If we look at it through your point of view then yes. Iraq wasnt supposed to be like this.. we were supposed to go in and come out with a quick decisive victory.


Innocent people die every day, true, but when they die from war, and WE ARE the CAUSE of it, not the part of it, it’s on our hands.


We didnt plan for the sectarian violence to spread over the country like a great wild fire... That was where we F'ed up... The iraqis were very happy that Coalition troops were there after the fall of baghdad, there still are iraqis that are glad we are there... Thats something you wont here on the media outlets. but none the less its true.


No! Come on, decade after decade, IDENTICAL scenarios, a 12 year old can go on line and build a time line which clearly shows what happens how ANY country slips into civil war.

It is absolutely true that there are in fact a lot of Iraqi who are happy to see Coalition forces in their neighborhoods, but not because they like them, but simply because if those troops were not there, their neighborhood would be run by criminals and radicals. That spells wide spread intimidation, beatings, murder, and so forth.


War is hell ppl... Blame bush all you want... Ill blame him with you. We will all blame him together if it truly makes you feel better.. But the fact is to cut and run now would send a bad message to not only the terrorists but to the enitre world! We are whats left of the great superpowers...


True, but we are the ones that brought that war to those people. They are the people (not soldiers) that doing the dying, not us, and that’s a world of difference.

Cut and run has nothing to do with sending any messages, it has to do with break out of a FULL FLEDGED civil war and GENOCIDE, caused directly by American CHOICE.

That’s why I for one against pulling our troops out right now. Like a old saying, made a mess, clean it up.


We cannot let a bunch of third world barbarians who want to kill themselves just so they can kill innocent ppl push us around. Dont agree with me?. That is your god given right...


What makes you better then an Iraqi? You honestly believe that calling other people barbarians puts you on some sort of a pedestal? What do you think actually drives some one to suicide bombings? There was a documentary about it, look into that.


That is what the young men and women are fighting for and dieing for! They are the ones in the middle of this whole mess... I support the war because i support them! Call it a lie call it whatever the F*** you want.... Its personal now...


Our men and women are fighting for EACH OTHER, just as it always was in war, and always will be. As soon as the first bullet smacks right next to you, followed by an RPG and a few mortars, all the speeches and other pseudo-patriotic fluff just pours right out of you, even if you did manage not to loose your bladder.

I support the guys and gals that are stuck there and getting killed and maimed so some rich bastards can get even richer, but I sure as hell do not support the war because there is no war, it’s a COLONIAL aggression.

Damn right it’s personal.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 12:26 AM
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OYE! You forgot the lives lost in: Afghanistan, Columbia, Chile, Panama, Mexico, and all the other corners of the world where bu#e storm troopers are attacking civilians. Afghanistan... need not say more. Columbia, the US govt. OFFICIALY trains columbian officers in the "school of assassins" as its come to be known where they go back and murder their own countrymen/woman/children/babies/etc. Not to mention the US govt. has officers there commanding, Chile, the support of dictators through military equipment and funding, Panama well you remember the panama invasion or I hope you do, if not go get a book and read it. MEXICO! The US govt. also trains their officers who promptly keep the all human rights stomped on whenever someone tries to use it, case in point the ZAPATISTA rebel army, they are fighting because of what the corporations are doing to their lands, and what the Mexican govt. is doing to them militarily.
Well that doesnt even come CLOSE to covering all the wars the US is in, directly or indirectly (directly=bu#e storm troopers used, indirectly=bu#e storm troopers NOT used but military equipment and funding IS given and used)

So whats the REAL count world wide? Millions a year slaughtered because of foreign policies. Slashing aid to those who need it, funding every would be dictator around the world who murders his own people to maintain power and the globalist corporations, and a host of other things all add onto this.


DONT YOU DARE THINK THAT THE IRAQI AND AFGHAN PEOPLE ARE THE ONLY ONES BEING KILLED BY THE US GOVT.!!!



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 01:41 AM
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Vekar, you got it right.

When I talk about stuff like this, some Americans simply refuse to believe that I am an American, because they are programmed to deny, but not ignorance, deny what ever official propaganda tells them too.

Unfortunately my America has been slipping into the history books for a LONG time now, and what USA is right now is NOT America, and NOT what our Founding Fathers meant it to be.

In fact, the America of today is EXACTLY what we were being continuously warned about by every truly good American president.

Our false leaders openly state that the vision in which they have been molding our nation is that of “Modern Rome”. I’m sure you know what Rome was all about, and what Greece was all about.


Well that doesnt even come CLOSE to covering all the wars the US is in, directly or indirectly (directly=bu#e storm troopers used, indirectly=bu#e storm troopers NOT used but military equipment and funding IS given and used)


This is a good thread to see exactly what kind of a foot print our armed forces leave on the rest of the world on our behalf.


In 2002 James Glaser stumbled across the VFW web page section for eligibility and, to his surprise, found 67 places on the globe where America has been at war in some way since after WW II. Antiwar.com and Lew Rockwell state that we have engaged the enemy 23 times since 1945, but the Congress of the United States put that number at 67.

Here is the list as written in the VFW site:

* Taiwan Straits
* Quemoy Matsu Island
* Congo
* Laos
* Vietnam
* Cuba
* Dominican Republic
* Korea
* Cambodia
* Thailand (in direct support of Cambodia Operation)
* Operation Eagle Pull-Evacuation of Cambodia
* Operation Frequent Wind-Evacuation of Vietnam
* Mayaguez Operation
* Operation Urgent Fury-Grenada
* Lebanon
* Germany (West Berlin)
* Austria
* Korea
* Japan
* Italy
* Trieste
* Germany (except West Berlin)
* Austria
* Asiatic Pacific
* Korean Service Medal (Army, Navy, Air Force)
* Berlin
* Libyan Operation El Dorado Canyo
* Persian Gulf Operation Earnest Will
* Panama Operation Just Cause
* Somalia-United Shield-Operation Restore Hope
* Haiti-Operation Uphold Democracy
* Operation Southern Watch (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, Oman, Gulf of Omen W. Of 62' E. Long, Yemen, Egypt, Jordan)
* El Salvador
* Bosnia-Operation Joint Endeavor
* Operation Joint Guard
* Operation Vigilant Sentinel
* Operation Northern Watch
* Operation Maritime Intercept
* Operation Joint Forge (Bosnia-Herzegovina)
* Operation Desert Thunder
* Operation Desert Fox
* Thailand Military Operation
* Cuban Military Operation
* Iranian, Yemen Indian Ocean Operation
* Lebanon, Libyan Expedition
* Panama - (pre and post invasion)
* Liberia (Operation Sharp Edge)
* Rwanda (Operation Distant Runner)
* Vietnam Service Medal
* Iraq Operation Desert Storm/Operation Desert Shield
* Combat Action Ribbon, Korean Service,
* Kosovo Campaign Medal (Allied Force),
* Joint Guardian, Allied Harbor Sustain Hope/Shining Hope
* Nobel Anvil, Kosovo Task Force Hawk
* Kosovo Task Force Saber
* Kosovo Task Force Falcon
* Kosovo Task force Hunter
* Kosovo Air Campaign
* Kosovo Defense Campaign.


Now for some facts:

- United States has over 700 military out posts outside the U.S.
- USAF had dropped 1.5 million tons of bombs on Laos and 150,000 tons of bombs on Viet Nam
- 10,000 tons of bombs were dropped on Afghanistan
- United States reports that it flew over 110,000 air sorties against Iraq, dropping to date over 100,000 tons of conventional bombs
- In 2004, it’s been estimated that the United States fired 2,500 tons of depleted uranium munitions on Iraq with the radio-active equivalent of thousands of Nagasaki bombs with a half-life of 4.5 BILLION years
- Researchers estimate that since 1945 at least 50 US and Russian nuclear weapons have been lost and remain at bottom of the sea
- Due to nuclear testing starting from 1945, 1,025 nuclear detonations, including five upper-atmosphere tests called ‘operation starfish,’ I believe have added to today’s global warming problem
- U.S. nuclear stockpile is estimated to consist of almost 20,000 nuclear warheads
- Russian nuclear stockpile is estimated at 19,500 nuclear warheads
- China at present has 2,350 nuclear warheads
- United States has, to my estimate, dropped over 100,000,000 (million) tons of bombs on foreign lands over the last 50 years, estimating that between 10 million to 16 million deaths were directly and indirectly related to United States’ hegemony sense after WWII.


www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just like that. And then some joker keeps insisting that I must be Russian, and that I'm somehow keep lying that I'm an American, living in America, because I was always sickened and outraged to how our freedom and democracy keeps costing the rest of the worlds peoples their very lives.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 07:43 AM
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semperfoo

In the desperation of the present administration to take out Saddam and benefit from it.

They ignore historical facts, they ignore the amount of data given that was telling them the ramifications of such an endeavor.

They were dreaming with going in and be welcome with flowers and candy, they knew that without a goal for the people in that nation it would become a fiasco.

Because the primary goal was not to keep the people safe but to keep the oil safe.

Look back and check the time line and the decision making of the so called experts in pre war Iraq.

Even with all the negativity the administration wagged a campaign that only was to ensure a military success not a success as a peace maker and nation re builder.

That is why we got the mess we got in Iraq now, terrorist were made, insurgency were made, and the borders were open for anybody to come and fight the US.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 08:38 AM
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Just wanted to say thanks iskander

Very pertinent information there...


We as Americans tend to think that only the most virtuous of people seek and attain power.. well sort of; let me explain. Everyone seems to know politicians are dirty; but its always the same line..."not my politician"...well.. yes your politrickster too!!

This countries foreign policy has been lop-sided to say the least for a long time now. What is in America's best interest is not necc. in the best interest of the country on the opposite side of the deal. In this case, Iraq. While it has been beneficial for our defense contractors and mega corporations.. it has been disasterous for the Iraqi people. It has also been almost crippling to our national budget. It has drained our recources; Wasted the lives of 3000 Coalition forces lives(2700+ Americans); and for what? Well thats one of two things:

Either it was incomptence... in which case those involved all the way to the top should resign and face criminal neglect charges for the death of 3000 soldiers and 655,000 Iraqis

or

It was deliberate falsification, in which case: those responsible for this collosal deception need to be tried as traitors... all the way to the top.

Either way.. there has been no accountability at all for the mega mistakes made that got us into this quagmire. Not the Dems... not the Reps... NOONE has been held accountable. No one has even resigned as a result of this... it just continues on with the line of(and this really steams me)...

"oh well, were in there now".... so what!!!!!!! Does that mean that we do not hold those responsible for the above mentioned scenarios? Do they get to keep their jobs and freedom after their incompetence/deception? Un-acceptable...... This is the travesty of this... NOONE will be held accountable for the deaths of thousands of our countrymen and HUNDREDS of thousands of Iraqis.

I am not saying we should pull out right now.. but we do need some real answers and solutions other than:

Stay the frickin course.....


And even if we do "stay the course" then we stiull need to prosocute those responsible for this incompetence/deception.. whichever it may be.....Justice NEEDS to be served. As it is now it has been illustrated that mistakes that get people killed are met with no consequences.. That is a complete disregard and disrespect of our own laws and principles. It illustrates to future leaders of this country that there are no reprocussions for grievous errors. This cannot be allowed to happen. They must face justice and the laws of the land for this... Oh yeah nevermind... they just6 signed bill that does not allow for prosocution of any war crimes dating back to 911....
But thats what you get when the criminal is the policeman. And Justice died without a fight....



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 12:49 PM
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Too many people dying,but hey i guess that would mean 655,000 have been "liberated" by Bush.Im a true believer that things would have been better,had we left Iraq alone,period.There would seem to be many more serious threats to the U.S than Iraq.Actually,how many times has Bush changed his story about why we went to war with Iraq anyways?Im pretty sure 655,000 people currently dont care about the reasons,they just know that is was a bad decision.People tend to look at the number 655,000 as a statistic,but in reality it someone mom,dad,sister,brother,son,daughter that is being lost.And forget money,that many deaths is far to high a price to pay for any war.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 01:18 PM
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Iraq could have been whatever it wanted to be after the first gulf war except for one problem: THE US GOVT. BACKED OUT ON THE PEOPLE!
Shortly after GW1 (gulf war-1) the nation of Iraq was in shambles, the US had bombed out all its water treatment, most hospitals and schools, and about anything else the people needed to survive. Well the people were willing to have an uprising (small note you wont read in a history book that could have changed everthing) but lacked the guns to do so (they do not need training, they have been fighting since they could hold a gun) and the US govt. promplty refused to fund them. Thus Sadam was able to finish off anyone who would question him and did so shortly thereafter.
The bu#e govt. had 1 shot at both Iraq and Afghanistan, if they truely wanted the people to be free they would have had every ship possible that can go the distance mobilized with medical equipment, food, water, clothing, books in the appropriate languages, and a couple hundred thousand translators waiting for the short term fighting to end (the primary defence grid must be destroyed first) then land with those supplies and MORE and start getting it to the people who need it. Right there you would have stopped most fighting for at least a year, but instead they bombed the bejesus out of them and left them to rot. I will NEVER blame anyone in Iraq or Afghanistan for fighting the bu#e army for this reason, they only serve to cause genocidal wars not help them, they have all the right and more to fight back.

I do not remember the EXACT quote but this is in the US capital building in DC and in the "circlular" dome part there is this etched into it I think by Thoman Jefferson: To those who would challange freedom I pledge before god my undying hostility against them.

The forefathers would rather DIE than give in, this is a concept that founded the US but is quickly shoved out of the books because if it was taught it would give children the right idea: DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR!

Thus anything that must be called a "true american quote" aught to be thus: death before dishonor.


I will say this as well: No matter what you do or say sometimes you have to fight back. WW2 was a case where it was pertinent that the US stop Hitler, though Russia, France, Belgium, Poland, Britain, and several others were the primary fighters that weakened Germany. Russia who took the pounding of the bulk of the Germany airforce and army at Stalingrad and took the capital of Berlin at the end of the war. If anyone won the war it was Russia for their sacrifice, however what would have happened if none of them had fought back? Just think over what the world would look like today.
What would the world look like if people sat down with protest signs during WW2 and refused to fight Germany?

Poor policies cause wars, fix the policies you fix the problem. Just one catch: The policies are made and removed by the bu#es and those like them. So in order for it to be fixed they must go without question.

Think over this: What will you do if they (bu#es) keep doing what they are doing now AFTER the next "elections" despite who gets elected? What will you do if they start rounding people up and putting them in camps? Will you go hold a sign or take more direct and drastic action? Just THINK over it, to many bu#es on here would have you turned into the FBI, CIA, NSA, DHS, and every single spygroup in the US govt. if you told what you really thought on here. I wonder if they already have.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 02:14 PM
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Lessons Of History


Originally posted by Vekar
Iraq could have been whatever it wanted to be after the first gulf war except for one problem: THE US GOVT. BACKED OUT ON THE PEOPLE!

So would it be right for the U.S. to do that again?





[edit on 10/17/2006 by Majic]



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 05:33 PM
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Majic is a bit of difference right now, remember our troops are targets in Iraq now.

Before they were welcome during the first Gulf war, when they needed US the most.

Still sectarian violence would have become a problem no matter if is was then or now.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 06:33 PM
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Fairweather Friends

That's actually my point.

Whatever one's opinion may be about the Iraq invasion, that's over. It's done. There's no changing what has already happened.

If the U.S. and coalition pull out of Iraq now -- as bad as things are -- they would become infinitely worse. Peace would not break out spontaneously in the wake of a withdrawal.

I can't believe anyone who actually understands and cares about what's happening there would suggest abandoning Iraq. :shk:

But that's my opinion, and I respect the rights of others to think differently.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 09:43 PM
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Still sectarian violence would have become a problem no matter if is was then or now.


I can not agree with that at all. Its simply the type of excuse made every time when purposeful incompetence ends up costing lives.


I can't believe anyone who actually understands and cares about what's happening there would suggest abandoning Iraq.


That I do agree with. If coalition troops leave now, even in areas not effected by sectarian violence, crime alone (war lords) will continue to devastate the region.

The fact that this exact scenario happens time and time again clearly shows that it's not just another "mistake", but a calculated strategy.

The more violence and instability there is in any given region after democracy is once again delivered on the tip of a bayonet, the more of an excuse there is for the forces to remain there.

Exactly the same as with French, British, etc. colonial ambitions through out the history.

It's the same script over and over again.

A colonial power rolls in and quickly wipes away any resistance. Then a favorable faction is selected by the conquerors, the governing power and captured resources are divided so that one other factions will have no choice but to initiate a civil war, which in turn allows the colonial power to claim the necessity for continues presence and the need for regional control over "uncivilized barbarians".

Same story, over, and over, and over again. It's like a late night re-run that keeps popping up in bad nightmares.

Just start with Rome and work your way up.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 11:13 PM
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I say pull out, cut the losses and the costs.
Maj you failed to even comprehend my point:
AFTER the GW1 under Bush Jr. the Iraqi people were willing to revolt, the Saddam army was at its weakest and was mostly brigand groups now thinking that the central authority would never stand. Well that was the time to fix the problem once and for all but they DIDNT, they backed OUT of the people. They left them when they actually had a CHOICE.
Leaving now, yes it would allow violence to continue however would you rather sit there like fools and get chopped up like in Vietnam only WORSE or would you rather get the heck out now and let nature take its course.

Roman proverb: A WISE GENERAL KNOWS WHEN HE CANNOT WIN!
So are you going to be wise or the fool? I say your being the fool if you want to "stay the course." You will not only COMPLETELY wipe out their country but annihilate your OWN nation through the grandest example of bankrupcy in the world and leave so many poor and homeless that we will NEVER get a chance to be on our feet again unless we are annexed by CHINA.
I say GET THE HECK OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN! Violence in Iraq has gone UP since you went in not DOWN. So WHY ARE YOU GOING TO STICK AROUND?! SO YOU CAN SEE YOUR FAT REAR BLOWN OFF AND WATCH BLOOD SQUIRT OUT OF YOUR NOW MISSING LIMB!?
I cannot stand people who are willing to throw away lives for a lost cause, yes Iraq is now a lost cause, it has been since they proved they were there for oil not to help the people.
The only way to end the fighting in Iraq: Kill every last single living thing. Thats all thats left now, so shall you become the grandest murderers in the world? How about you get your rear ends out of a place you had no business to be in first then let them resolve their own problems.


For those rednecks who will say that its worth it and other BS about "oh violence will go up (BS ITS GOING UP FASTER SINCE YOUR THERE!)" and other worthless dribble:
Simplified of what I have said incase your not smart enough: Leave or Stay.
Stay= Endless war and violence, you suffer horrific losses in the USA and in Iraq
Leave= suffer 0 losses and end the debt whirlpool Iraq is.

Hows that? Dumbed down enough for you?

Maj, you are cannot ABANDON PEOPLE YOU WERE NEVER THERE TO SAVE! YOU WENT IN FOR THE OIL AND MONEY NOT FOR THE PEOPLE SO ABANDON THE OIL! ITS NOT WORTH YOUR LIFE! IF YOU THINK IT IS THEN JOIN THE ARMY AND GO FIGHT SO THE IRAQIS AND SHOOT YOU END GET THE WAR 1 PERSON CLOSER TO ENDING!

Thats not as harsh as I should be though...



posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 08:28 AM
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Originally posted by iskander

Still sectarian violence would have become a problem no matter if is was then or now.


I can not agree with that at all. Its simply the type of excuse made every time when purposeful incompetence ends up costing lives.




Sectarian violence was always part of the mix of groups in Iraq and the struggle for power.



There have been sectarian tensions in Iraq for decades, if not centuries, but the bitterness leading up to the violence was increased during Saddam Hussein's rule. The government of Saddam was run almost entirely by Sunni Arabs like himself, and he tended to favor this group over all others. Rebellions by Shiites and Kurds in 1991 just after the Persian Gulf War was met with a genocidal slaughter, more than 100,000 people from both groups were massacred.

Saddam also kept a tight rein on power by suppressing Iraqi civil society and civil groups, both democratic and Islamic.


So It doesn't matter the outcome of the violence would have been there no matter what.

The problem now is that the killings has been attributed to first casualties of the US invasion, then to terrorist, now insurgency and sectarian violence.

Our soldiers are in the most precarious situation right now they know that anytime they have to shot in Iraq is not terrorist what they are killing but Iraqis on a mission, to either kill an enemy from a another tribe or an American soldiers for been in there at the time.

They are targeted now by the uncontrollable situation.

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 05:42 PM
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Sectarian violence was always part of the mix of groups in Iraq and the struggle for power.


Would you call the American Civil War "sectarian violence"?

Any way it's spun, it's civil war.


So It doesn't matter the outcome of the violence would have been there no matter what.

The problem now is that the killings has been attributed to first casualties of the US invasion, then to terrorist, now insurgency and sectarian violence.


I'm sorry, but no. I've seen a nice little segment on CNN, about a Christian barber in Iraq, who is in mortal danger from the Muslims now. In the interview he clearly stated that prior to US invasion, it was never like that, and everybody were Iraqis, brothers.

Right from the horses moth.

If you want to go further back in time, we'll just end up with English colonization of the Middle East, Lowrance of Arabia, WWI, Muslim Brotherhood, etc.

Your call.


Our soldiers are in the most precarious situation right now they know that anytime they have to shot in Iraq is not terrorist what they are killing but Iraqis on a mission, to either kill an enemy from a another tribe or an American soldiers for been in there at the time.

They are targeted now by the uncontrollable situation.


Make a mess, clean it up. It was the OUR choice to support the ILLEGAL attack on Iraq, and people are still dying.

The so called "sectarian violence" is a concept invented for the politics of the West. How sanitized it is, how clean. "Sectarian violence", the violence of the sect, like what, David Koresh type of a sect?

Social psycho-dynamics, group dynamics; inter group relations, social engineering, etc.

The art of lies is evolving faster then our technology is by the way.

I read a sci-fi book years ago. A top a pillar in the cities center was a beam which scanned across the entire city once every 24 hours, and wiped clean all memories of its inhabitants.

Welcome to the United States of Amnesia.

And then right to the straight up "Brave New World Revisited".

Hi there.



posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 07:54 PM
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iskander

Is not American civilian war in Iraq.

Tell me do know the history of Iraq and the entire area? I imagine that you are aware that they are formed of tribes and for centuries they have been at war with each other.

Now you don't want to call Iraq mess a sectarian confrontation but I will call it, revenge between the three main groups that make the population of Iraq.

And they are at war with each other, after Saddam strong regime of control they are targeting the majority in power now in ruling Iraq or at least trying.

And our soldiers are in the middle of the mess.



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