Originally posted by deltaboy
Thats how the world works in Iraq and Afghanistan. I mean how did we spread democracy in Germany and Japan? It sure wasn't cheap in blood.

Well Germany and Japan started invading other countries, didn't they?

I wish someone would bring democracy to the US.

Originally posted by rich23


Well Germany and Japan started invading other countries, didn't they?

So was the Soviet Union.

They weren't the only countries. I mean Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990. It makes sense. We just trying to finish the job.

I wish someone would bring democracy to the US.

We have one, thats why nobody needs to bring one.

We have one, thats why nobody needs to bring one.

You're kidding? A democracy in the USA? More an illusion of democracy. Here's a few key words why I don't think the USA is a democracy, not anymore: neo-cons, democrats, republicans, Bush, Clinton, Diebold, TV medias, Patriot Act, Military Comission Act, ect.. ect..

[edit on 11-10-2006 by Vitchilo]

Originally posted by Vitchilo

You're kidding? A democracy in the USA? More an illusion of democracy. Here's a few key words why I don't think the USA is a democracy, not anymore: neo-cons, democrats, republicans, Bush, Clinton, Diebold, TV medias, Patriot Act, Military Comission Act, ect.. ect..

No I'm not kidding. What kind of democracy you were looking for? Athens style? You have the right to vote, criticize the president, right to religion, get as many guns you want, right to free speech, etc, etc, etc.

Originally posted by Shroomery

No friend of the current administration? Oh please.. you really have no idea do you?

We're talking about the CNN founded and run by Ted Turner (along with Jane Fonda), right? The CNN that covers over Bush's speeches with "accidental" coverage of their news anchor going to the bathroom. The CNN that puts a red X over Cheney's face? No, you get a clue. I read and or watch CNN news every day - along with many other sources. Really, get a clue before posting ...

Originally posted by Vitchilo

We have one, thats why nobody needs to bring one.

You're kidding? A democracy in the USA? More an illusion of democracy. Here's a few key words why I don't think the USA is a democracy, not anymore: neo-cons, democrats, republicans, Bush, Clinton, Diebold, TV medias, Patriot Act, Military Comission Act, ect.. ect..

[edit on 11-10-2006 by Vitchilo]

Do you even know what a democracy is? It's a fancy word for "mob rule". And today's mob are the corporations, big money, etc.

The government is dirty. History shows us that it's always been dirty. And it's letting big money influence everything it does (Carlyle Group, Trilateral Commission, etc. )

But this isn't the matrix, and we're not all slaves. Our country doesn't put people to death for wanting to leave. The fact that we can trash our government without fear of reprisal is proof of democracy, even if it's a corrupt one. Try organizing an anti-Kim protest in North Korea, see what happens.

Further, this number, 655,000, is stupid. I have no doubt that the body count could be as high as, say, 200,000, and that's assuming a wide margin of error. If you read the entire article, you'll see they did a house-to-house poll to get this number.

Nobody forces Muslims to kill other Muslims. If they cared so much about protecting their fellow people from Americans, they would stop killing each other and remove our administration's reason to stay in Iraq. Eventually, enough people would call us out.

Putting a democracy in Iraq was an obfuscation to the lack of WMD, and frankly the very notion is a waste of time. We're taking one tribe out of power and putting a new one in its place. It's just gonna be a new pile of the same crap.

personally i think both parties screwed up big time and the iraqi people are paying the highest cost for it.

and lets get something clear, the function of a democracy is not to propagate itself around the planet.....it's to serve it's people giving them freedom and a voice. that isn't to say we shouldn't help out people around the world, but we needn't seek out fights. they've got to want to be free and they've got to shoulder most of the burden to do so. so far i haven't seen this from the iraqi people. wow they had some elections, i don't see the iraqi security forces stepping up so we can step down. they are content, i mean the current iraqi gov we've setup, to let us deal with all their problems...ie the insurgents and forces like "al-queda in iraq" while they get all buddy buddy with iran. one day they will be better off because we took out saddam, but honestly we had and still do have bigger fish to fry than him. people like the iranian president and kim jong il, who want nukes to keep us at bay...so they claim. perhaps when our "leaders" decide to get in another war that further strains our economy people won't be so quick to jump the gun and yell " free those people! bring down that evil leader!" and instead think it out a little beforehand.



optimus

Originally posted by deltaboy

No I'm not kidding. What kind of democracy you were looking for? Athens style? You have the right to vote, criticize the president, right to religion, get as many guns you want, right to free speech, etc, etc, etc.

excuse me, as of a few weeks ago you DO NOT have the right to criticize the president anymore (ask the guy who told Dick he doesnt agree with him on the street), and they will take your guns (or attempt to at least)

...free speech? oh you mean in a "free speech" zone in the back alley where you cant bother anyone



democracy....

ps: your reply is being recorded so watch what you say



[edit on 11-10-2006 by born_to_be_wired]

Originally posted by centurion1211
We're talking about the CNN founded and run by Ted Turner (along with Jane Fonda), right? The CNN that covers over Bush's speeches with "accidental" coverage of their news anchor going to the bathroom. The CNN that puts a red X over Cheney's face? No, you get a clue. I read and or watch CNN news every day - along with many other sources. Really, get a clue before posting ...

Well, after those 2 great examples of an undeniable bias you surely convinced me.

Originally posted by Shroomery

Well, after those 2 great examples of an undeniable bias you surely convinced me.

Hey, continue to wear the blinders if it suits you. While you're sitting there (in the dark) you might contemplate that these kinds of things are happening on zero other networks for either side.

For all conspiracy theorists, there's no possible conspiracy here. Move along ...

Originally posted by born_to_be_wired

Originally posted by deltaboy

No I'm not kidding. What kind of democracy you were looking for? Athens style? You have the right to vote, criticize the president, right to religion, get as many guns you want, right to free speech, etc, etc, etc.

excuse me, as of a few weeks ago you DO NOT have the right to criticize the president anymore (ask the guy who told Dick he doesnt agree with him on the street), and they will take your guns (or attempt to at least)

...free speech? oh you mean in a "free speech" zone in the back alley where you cant bother anyone



democracy....

ps: your reply is being recorded so watch what you say



[edit on 11-10-2006 by born_to_be_wired]

Exactly, that's why I said Military Comission Act of 2006... It's illegal to breach allegiance to Bush... illegal to critize the government policies... wait till they abuse their power, after the mid-term election, and you'll be in big illusion if you still think the US is a democracy. Legalize torture, suspend the Habeas Corpus, ect.. ect... Please, inform you before saying things that were true 2 or 3 weeks ago that aren't anymore true.

We are heading in a fascist direction... at least face it.

Hmm, wel at that rate it would appear the pre=war Iraqi people should be wiping themselves out in about two decades, and anyone born after that would be more likely to perhaps become Westernized maybe?

How many died because of actual military operations or direct link to American troops? Not 600,000 thats for sure.

Most die because of sectarian violence, which has been a problem since the UK formed the Iraqi boreders many years ago... the hostil relations are in no way new, the new sense of anarchy that seems to have gripped the nation though has attributed to the massive death tolls.

Can America be blamed for making them hate each other... no.. that would not be logical now would it, they hated eachother before hand, hence Saddam being on trial for killing Shiites and Kurds.

Can America be blamed for breaking the only system of law to allow the two groups to murder eachother? I think if enough hate and fustration was built up it would break out soon anyways, ask me and I would say it is better America evened the playing field then have the Sunis with Saddam put the rest down had they tried to rise up again.

In the start of the war with iraq I reported a news story showing 100,000 iraqi's killled in the war in Iraq and the Media called it false and tryed to discredit it. Afterwords the FBI raided the server it was on and removed the story to attempt to do damage control.

That was in 2003. Its 2006 I have no question the numbers are higher now.

Falcon

Originally posted by born_to_be_wired


excuse me, as of a few weeks ago you DO NOT have the right to criticize the president anymore (ask the guy who told Dick he doesnt agree with him on the street), and they will take your guns (or attempt to at least)

...free speech? oh you mean in a "free speech" zone in the back alley where you cant bother anyone



democracy....

A few weeks ago? I thought the perception is that our rights were taken since Bush entered office? Must be wrong. And who is taking our guns away from us? Free speech is where you can speak your mind like in front of the White House, unless you were expecting clamp down of free speech by having the Secret Service mow them down with weapons.

ps: your reply is being recorded so watch what you say

Uhuh.

Originally posted by falcon
In the start of the war with iraq I reported a news story showing 100,000 iraqi's killled in the war in Iraq and the Media called it false and tryed to discredit it. Afterwords the FBI raided the server it was on and removed the story to attempt to do damage control.

That was in 2003. Its 2006 I have no question the numbers are higher now.

Falcon

The story was debunked and not just by the media itself, but by many members of ATS as well.

An accurate count of Iraqi deaths has been difficult to obtain, but one respected group puts its rough estimate at closer to 50,000. And at least one expert was skeptical of the new findings.

"They're almost certainly way too high," said Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic & International Studies in Washington. He criticized the way the estimate was derived and noted that the results were released shortly before the Nov. 7 elections in the United States.

"This is not analysis, this is politics," Cordesman said.

CNN was betting that everyone is too stupid to read the whole article. The OP was hoping the same. All I ask is that if you are one of those who did not read the article - Please Don't Vote!!!!!!!!!! You are part of the problem. If this is what our political system has been reduced too, then both the Democrats and the Republican Parties need to be dissolved and we need to find a better system.

The media is trying to control you. Why do so many of you follow them like a bunch of sheep? They are not elected and when they lie they get into no trouble. Why do you trust any of them? Don't you have any self esteem? Why do you let these people do this to you? Instead of attacking the source of the problem you are attacking each other. That is just what they are betting you will do. As long as they can keep us arguing both the Politicians and the Media can take turns controlling us. Wake Up!!!!!!!!!!