North Korea says talks or "a nuclear missile"

Originally posted by Flyersfan

I still think it makes more sense for someone to just chop off the head of N.Korea and first see if the threat dies with the man. Seriously. Why all the talk about massive war and bombings ... just one sharpshooter;
my emphasis

Why all all the talk, indeed, when your follow-up statement is a declaration of massive war...

Originally posted by Flyersfan

I still think it makes more sense for someone to just chop off the head of N.Korea and first see if the threat dies with the man. Seriously. Why all the talk about massive war and bombings ... just one sharpshooter;
my emphasis

Why all all the talk, indeed, when your follow-up statement is a declaration of massive war...

on yer 6,

It isn't about bashing, it is about facing the truth - which is something many Americans seem unable, or unwilling to do.

All what you said about NK is absolutely true - what they have done is horrible. However, the simple fact is there is NOTHING that the US can do or say that doesn't make it a hypocrite because it does the exact same thing to it's people!! How many poor people are on the American streets? How many people are going to not eat tonight? HOw much did that new raptor cost? There is nothing that can be said about any country in the world that can't be said about the States.

Now that doesn't mean that America isn't a great country. It clearly is and is filled with great people. What it means is wake up and if I may use a paraphrase a quote from a good book "Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, But considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? "--MATTHEW VII

Originally posted by The Iconoclast

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
My god, I hope the Chinese leadership haven't read "Art of War"

, they probably have though... whatcha think?

I think you've been reading too many spy/fantasy novels. What you're suggesting is a huge international conspiracy designed to weaken/attack America. It's funny, but to many here it is insane to think of our government being able to coordinate an attack on our own soil. Many of those same people seem to have no problem thinking of a multi-nation, multi-government, multi-ideology, conspiracy to attack America. Good old American paranoia is again getting out of control.

I didn't quite know where to cut the quote, so sorry for using the whole thing...
While I freely admit, that this is a worst case scenario, it is possible...

Why do you think China hasn't already taken over N. Korea?
it works too well as a "puppet" that isn't directly connected...

Very similar to the way that the USA has used Israel...
they do our dirty work, and N.Koreas does China's...

but as things go, the tools sometimes become the toolholders...
In America, we tolerated it, and got used to it...

In China, they give one warning, then send your family a bill for the bullet.

N. Korea IMHO, has outlived its usefullness to China, and it is just a question of whether China is ready to use this to its advantage, or wants to wait for the next golden opportunity...

Personally, I think the New China sees this as an opportunity to gather some much needed favors, instead of a play on taiwan...

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
America = Big kid who talks tough around smaller guys, but when around someone who will hit back becomes pleasent...

LMFAO um ya ok were just big kids picking on the little guys what country are you from anyhow i sure hope it isnt from a country we bailed out during WW2, or are you saying that the US has never got into it with a country that has any kind of power.

either way since this country has started we have fought with the major powers of the world.
I find it completely hillarious that anyone here on this site or anywhere else could possibly blame the US for anything to do with NK.

you know what the problem is thier is to many people in this world ready to lay the blame on another country particularly the US but they dont have the balls to get of there arse and do something about it themselves, just look at the world today and everything wrong with it so many people complaining about whats going on here and whats going on there look at some of the issues in africa for instances with so many people crying out for someone to go help them, you know why those people havent gotten help like they deserve yet because we americans havent gone to help but i dont see anybody else standing in line to go help.

Everybody likes to say america is an emperial force but the fact is if we dont devote the people and money to do what needs to be done nobody else will and those same people would be bickering about us if we didnt.

So i say you dont have a right to biotch about the US untill your own country devotes the money and man power we have and in my opinion the only other country that deserves that respect would be the UK because they have been right beside us doing the duty that the world leaders have agreed upon every step of the way. they may not devote themselves nearly as much ( $$ & man power) but atleast they dont sit on thier Arse.

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
America = Big kid who talks tough around smaller guys, but when around someone who will hit back becomes pleasent...

****Sound of alarm clock ringing ****

Time for you to wake up ...

Where ever you are from = milquetoast who runs and hides from any confrontation even if standing up to a bully might mean the future safety of himself and others. Unfortunately, we don't live in utopia yet. So, violence is unfortunately sometimes the required solution.

Also, Germany and Japan in WWII, Communist China in the Korean War, and the Soviet Union in the Cold War were the "smaller guys" of those times???

C'mon, study some history before posting something this ridiculous again.


[edit on 10/10/2006 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
on yer 6,

It isn't about bashing, it is about facing the truth - which is something many Americans seem unable, or unwilling to do.

All what you said about NK is absolutely true - what they have done is horrible. However, the simple fact is there is NOTHING that the US can do or say that doesn't make it a hypocrite because it does the exact same thing to it's people!! How many poor people are on the American streets? How many people are going to not eat tonight? HOw much did that new raptor cost? There is nothing that can be said about any country in the world that can't be said about the States.

you know IMO thats BS in America all one has to do is get off his or her arse and he or she can find food or shelter even a job. the bigest problem is these people dont try to help themselves.

I am not saying thier isnt homeless people that cant help themselves because thier is but the fact remains a simple walk to the local welfare office or food shelf is not that hard and in big citys thier are multiple organizations and programs to help those people, seems your education on the US is weak please do me a favor tell me the names of 4 other countrys that do as much as the US to help its people and the world and tell me what they have done.

Kim Jong 2 rules with a god-like tyrrany. Secretive and opaque even to his own compatriots, he has only ever once allowed his voice to be broadcast, eight years ago, and he only uttered 6 words. He rarely receives 'outsiders', and has often been portrayed as a unstable, cognac-swilling playboy megalomanic, serviced by a 'bevy' of women called the 'pleasure squad'. Now, however, such rhetorical under-estimations are tempered with more accurate information to come out of South Korea. One senior South Korean official has been quoted as stating that Kim Jong 2 possesses high intelligence on a level that affords him 'genius', and that he is a 'computer wizard'. There is no 2nd guessing this fellow!

As for the test...Russian officials are quite adamant that it was a 'nuclear' explosion, and that it may have had a yeild similar to that of Hiroshima. South Korean and US officials are playing it down and have stated that it was 'probably' smaller. The only warning given by the North Koreans that the test was imminient was a telephone call to China half-an-hour prior to the test. It was the Chinese whom sounded the alarm by phoning the US Embassy in Beijing.

A question that needs to be asked (with a cool-head and open-mind) is why did NK seek to develop nuclear capability? It was only three years ago that they decided to reject the 'Non-Proliferation' Treaty, so perhaps, being labelled by Bush as one of the members in the 'Axis of Evil' went someway in helping them to decide that they required a better defence (or offence) deterrent against such blatant war-rhetoric from a man whom is not credibly sure of the effect his words caused around the globe? The North Koreans know that they will be annihilated by a superior and better equiped country, so this imputes that their acquisition of nuclear weaponry is not really so much a deterrent, but more of a 'mutually-assurred-destructive-tactic'. A defiant statement that acknowledges its own destruction, but also states that we too can now cause immense long-term damage to either you or your interests, so who or what are you willing to sacrifice for your business interests driving your economy...your own people, or those of your allies in the region?
Another issue is the sanctions that have been imposed against North Korea for many years. Perhaps they are getting desperate, and reason that having nuclear capability gives them a bargaining lever to have them eased?
One thing is certain, the world does not know enough about those whom rule North Korea to make reasonable guesstimations as to what they are willing to do, but I would wager that they are willing to cause as much mayhem as possible if the rest of the world thinks it can bully them into submission. This is a tight-rope that not only the North Koreans walk along...we all do, and we do so with equal or more concern!

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
America = Big kid who talks tough around smaller guys, but when around someone who will hit back becomes pleasent...

****Sound of alarm clock ringing ****

Time for you to wake up ...

Where ever you are from = milquetoast who runs and hides from any confrontation even if standing up to a bully might mean the future safety of himself and others. Unfortunately, we don't live in utopia yet. So, violence is unfortunately sometimes the required solution.

Also, Germany and Japan in WWII, Communist China in the Korean War, and the Soviet Union in the Cold War were the "smaller guys" of those times???

C'mon, study some history before posting something this ridiculous again.


[edit on 10/10/2006 by centurion1211]

- Silly rabbit. Germany and what they did, can be directly linked to what the Allies did to them at the treaty of Verssile(sp?). Not to excuse what they did ultimately, merely pointing out that before any violence happened it could have been resolved. Violence didn't need to happen there. Ofcourse you can make the case that the treaty was there because of WW1, and that would be valid - but it does only back up my original point of violence begetting violence doesn't it? So how can violence be the answer to violence when it creates what you are trying to stop? Serious buddy think about what you are ultimately saying.

My comparison still stands. When there was no threat the US was all for war. Now there is a none threat and Bush wants "diplomacy". Say whatever you like it will not change that simple fact will it? Unless the US goes into NK, they will have been shown to either be cowards or lyers. The problem is going into NK is pointless, and it wouldn't be an issue at all, IF, bush didn't try to include them in the whole axis of evil(The only one of the axsis that was a marginal threat BTW). But he did and it was America's sworn duty to go off and free those people! Well now what? Still going to spread democracy and freedom, ofcourse not - why?

Either because it wasn't about freedom or democracy(this Admin is a lier, committed war crimes and possibly treason), or because NK may hit back(The admin is frieghtened of a boom-stick).

Don't blame me, blame the guy that put you on this crazy course.

Thsi just in!!! The NK test is almost decidedly a mal-function! What an embarassment. I'll bet there are some scientists wth their butts smoking from the chewing out, (or the firing squad)!

CNN

NEW YORK (CNN) -- The United States believes North Korea attempted to detonate a nuclear device and that "something went wrong," a U.S. government official told CNN Tuesday.

HA HA!

Originally posted by MadMachinist

you know IMO thats BS in America all one has to do is get off his or her arse and he or she can find food or shelter even a job. the bigest problem is these people dont try to help themselves.

I am not saying thier isnt homeless people that cant help themselves because thier is but the fact remains a simple walk to the local welfare office or food shelf is not that hard and in big citys thier are multiple organizations and programs to help those people, seems your education on the US is weak please do me a favor tell me the names of 4 other countrys that do as much as the US to help its people and the world and tell me what they have done.

I don't mean to say every poor person is the result of the system. Clearly not. Many are just as you say, unwilling to work their way. That stated there are more than enough "working poor", that my original point can still be made without the use of the actual homeless people.

Ahh, Canada, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, etc, etc all do more for their population than the US does. That is not to say the US is bad. (Why is it whenever you critise America for anything wrong they came back to international help? It's like telling a buiddy he should stop beating his wife, and he tells you it is OK because he gave to the United way! LOL). The US isn't bad at all. I thought I clearly stated it is a great country filled with great people? However, you can not say we have to go after this guy, or that country because of a laundry list that can be equally applied to your own country. That makes it rather hypocritical don't you think?

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
on yer 6,

It isn't about bashing, it is about facing the truth - which is something many Americans seem unable, or unwilling to do.

All what you said about NK is absolutely true - what they have done is horrible. However, the simple fact is there is NOTHING that the US can do or say that doesn't make it a hypocrite because it does the exact same thing to it's people!! How many poor people are on the American streets? How many people are going to not eat tonight? HOw much did that new raptor cost? There is nothing that can be said about any country in the world that can't be said about the States.

Now that doesn't mean that America isn't a great country. It clearly is and is filled with great people. What it means is wake up and if I may use a paraphrase a quote from a good book "Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, But considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? "--MATTHEW VII

You have to be kidding right? Comparing the less than 5% unemployment rate in the USA to the mass starvation in N.K.? Few of those unemployed can't work and the others choose the lazy life by living off of the governments tit called welfare. You need to eat, you need clothes, you need a job, you need shelter it can be found through government and nongovernment charities. We have thousands of organizations that help people. We are wrapping up a Unite Way Campaign here that generates millions for charity. Americans have the luxury of picking and choosing their jobs. Hell, some are so fat and lazy they will not do manual labor jobs and live off the government while illegal immigrants do the work because the pay is amazing compared to the pathetic economy in Mexico. Mexico would be a paradise compared to N.K. Comparing homeless in the USA to the mass starvation in N.K. is the most clueless thing I have ever read.

No need to quote scripture here just know that no other nation on this planet has ever donated more of it's money or blood from it's citizens for others in need around this globe. That cannot be debated. It is a cold hard fact. But you consider the USA a hypocrite............

So why has no other country stepped up to the plate in the last few decades to help others in their own backyard instead of waiting on the good ol' USA to step in??????? Easy one there, money is more important. Let the USA pay for it and we may commit minimal troops or funding.

But once again we are the greedy nation scouring the planet for everyone's oil. People if the yeehaws running our country wanted the oil it would be ours. China is buying up oil everywhere in all hemispheres. It's not just the USA.

Thank God that in the USA you can make your dreams come true and do anything you want. Example, two guys can start a company and in a couple of years sell it for $1.6 billion dollars! (youtube) try that in a dictatorship, socialist, or communist country!

On Yer 6,

I am not kidding at all. Your numbers are suspect(As all government numbers are, and indeed stat's in general). I also stated in a seperate post that even without the jobless/homeless the working poor(That wouldn't show in your number) can be used to underline the same arguement. No, I am not saying it is to the same degree as it is in Korea - or rather how it is as far as you or I or anyone outside of Korea knows. However, the difference is one of degree and not of kind. NK is not as good to their citizenery as America is to theirs - so NK must be bad? Well, America is not as good to their citizenry as, for arguments sake, Denmark - does that mean America is bad?

I don't like NK having a nuke(If they even do), but to say they are bad based on questionable criteria, that can be used against any nation(it isn't just the states) is pointless and will lead to more fear and uncertinty from other countries which only destablizes the area more. IMO.

Once again - take a look at what the US has done internationally and what it has cost internationally and I have no doubts that the US is ahead - however(And why do people keep jumping this part) it does not mean that critisms over what failed to happen is somehow null and viod. The US has caused LOTS of damage worldwide. It has also done LOTS of good work worldwide. However, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to point out where there have been problems and possible solutions to those problems because some American will decide to become a patriotic numbskull by brushing off all the good comments and focusing on a critism that may say that the US did something wrong is read as the US sucks or someother such nonesense.

So, just so all those Americans that are having a hard time with this. America is a great country filled with great people - HOWEVER that doesn't mean you are above reproach.(IMO none of us are - let me rant about Canada! LOL)

The US is NOT the cause of ALL the worlds problems, any more than they are the reason for all the worlds goodness. However, they are a cause of some of the worlds problems and a cause for some of the worlds goodness.

Now that is cleared up can we get back to our regularily schedule thread?

That made me laugh good to see someone has a sense of humor in the face of this big NK menace.

I see alot of blaming going on around here, whether it be Clinton or Bush. Sheesh why not just blame Harry Truman for firing Mcarthur? We would have a VERY different situation today had McArthur gone through with "all out war" when the Chinese invaded North Korea. Hell he wanted to bring the A Bomb to Korea. Then we'd have a completely furious China and Soviet Union at the time, but who knows.

The fact of the matter is that blaming anyone won't do any good - we have a probably jealous, maybe crazy, and surely egotistical leader here who has been leading a regime that has existed long before Clinton or Bush took office, though Kim II himself came to power in 94.

IMO, something needs to be done very soon before he can acquire a working nuclear arsenal, as talks have proven futile for years now. That is quite a difficult situation however, as our military is stretched out thin and NK does have alot of firepower aimed at South Korea. I bet our Air Force and Navy aren't as badly stretched out as the army, and could surely bomb the hell out of their artillery and maybe troops. If we could get SK, Japan, maybe Australia and even China and some other NATO forces to quickly organize a coalition to pre emptively strike their forces aimed at SK then hinder their nuclear making abilities, something good could be done, and hopefully not at the risk of a third World War that could get blown out of proportion if other countries take advantage.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by el_madmaster]

Also interesting, I came across several articles originating from the Korea Times that in 2003 a NK missle warhead was found in Alaska, and I googled it and found several other sites that stated this. Is there any truth to this?

www.google.com...

From what I've read the missiles that they have only get as far as Alaska. Would they really think that attacking Alaska with a nuclear warhead would justify the cost of their entire country in a US retaliation.

Sounds like more attention-seeking to me.

North Korea know's about ElectroMagnetic Pulse! Only take's 1 at the right altitude.

www.globalsecurity.org...=%22report%20to%20congress%20emp%22


I personally am not so sure the ICBM test was a failure. They knew that if they let it sail there would have been all kinda trouble. As it was, they got some flight time with a payload weight of interest. Then a little self destruct to keep thing's cool till they can successfully test the miniaturized warhead of about the same weight maybe?

We have an invincibility complex in this country, I think 911 was only the first failure of imagination for us!

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
on yer 6,

It isn't about bashing, it is about facing the truth - which is something many Americans seem unable, or unwilling to do.

All what you said about NK is absolutely true - what they have done is horrible. However, the simple fact is there is NOTHING that the US can do or say that doesn't make it a hypocrite because it does the exact same thing to it's people!! How many poor people are on the American streets? How many people are going to not eat tonight? HOw much did that new raptor cost? There is nothing that can be said about any country in the world that can't be said about the States.

OK, I'm not particularly fond of the United States government. HOWEVER, we are in nowhere near the condition that North Korea is, at least not yet. Of course America has poor people. Many of them are poor because they choose to be, whether they choose to accept that or not. In North Korea, nearly EVERYONE is poor and nearly EVERYONE gets barely any food, apart from the military. That's because all North Korea desires is a military to back its attention-screaming goals. In the US, our military is composed more of high-technology IMO. The US may have its poor people and homeless people, but we also have the richest. I think your statement was made without thinking about what you said. While USA might be experiencing changes slowly leading to a more imperial state, it was nowhere NEAR the magnitude of "horrible" that NK is in right now. They are making these threats because they have NOTHING to lose. On the contrary, the US has EVERYTHING to lose being the #1 world superpower, at least temporarily.

Originally posted by The Iconoclast
I think you've been reading too many spy/fantasy novels. What you're suggesting is a huge international conspiracy designed to weaken/attack America.

What "huge international conspiracy" are you talking about? Nothing in his post postulated such a thing. LazarusTheLong was discussing possible geo-political maneuvering by the Chinese. They have either lost a large chunk of their face or they are behind this. Either way, trust the Chinese to find a suitable, and advantageous, position in this mess.

It's funny, but to many here it is insane to think of our government being able to coordinate an attack on our own soil. Many of those same people seem to have no problem thinking of a multi-nation, multi-government, multi-ideology, conspiracy to attack America.

Wait....huh? So many people think that the US govt had no hand in 9/11 but at the same time think that a global agenda exists to destroy America....wha?

Good old American paranoia is again getting out of control.

LOL I think it has been out of control for many years now.

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
My god, I hope the Chinese leadership haven't read "Art of War"

, they probably have though... whatcha think?

Oh I am pretty sure they have read the wonderful 13 chapters. Considering it is the oldest military text and Mao drew upon it for his Little Red Book, I would say it was required reading for a true party member. Iconoclast would do well to read chapters 5 & 9 of Hóng bǎoshū. lol