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Originally posted by mikesingh
Well, I've been studying this since a number of years culling various intell reports and having some 'insider knowledge' that I cannot divulge.
Originally posted by mikesingh
I never asked you to believe it! The basic tenet in the field of intel is never to compromise your 'sources'. So, take it or leave it. The choice is yours.
Originally posted by Pyros
It is a well-know fact that there existed a rogue element within the Pakistani government / scientific community who were willing to sell nuclear secrets to the highest bidder, and North Korea was only one of many customers in line for this product. This element was able to facilitate this technology transfer under the guise of purchased MRBM technology - the delegations that travelled to NK to sell and train them on MRBM technologies also included a contingent of nuclear weapons scientists who (covertly) began selling the Dear Leader the blueprints for his own nukes. All this was undoubtedly going on right under the nose of Mussarraf.
Originally posted by SmallMindsBigIdeas
Knowing about it and being responsible for it are two different issues. Our ally supplied them nuclear parts ... we didn't ask our ally to do it.
Using this logic if I sell my friend a car and two years later he's driving drunk and kills someone then it's my fault. He is my friend after all and he was driving my old vehicle which he bought. I should've known what he was going to do and I must've set this all up. Uhhh ... okay.
Originally posted by Daedalus3
If you have intel sources maybe you can tell me where Rabinder Singh is..
Originally posted by Daedalus3
It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to conceive that technology as sensitive as n-weapons can be proliferated by a single man or a bunch of people for the duration known, w/o knowledge of the same by goeverning bodies. Moreover it is even more ridiculous to believe that a civilian can cary out such deception in a state which is practically ruled by the intelligence services and the army (irrespective of whether there is a democratic elected leader or not).
Originally posted by Pyros
For all we know, Mussarraf may have known the transfer was going on and not been able to stop it, despite his position of power.
Originally posted by Shamanator
Thanks to him country's like Afghanistan and Iraq now have hope of progress and Christianity.
Originally posted by Sri Oracle
Originally posted by Shamanator
Thanks to him country's like Afghanistan and Iraq now have hope of progress and Christianity.
It seems odd that the US, a nation where church and state are so divided, that imperialistic action would bring with it the hopeful spread of Christianity.
Originally posted by maestro46
Yhea, it's not your fault here, but an old car and a nuke aren't exactly the same thing are they? For those of you who still don't get my point - car=vehicle nuke=WMD, don't scale things down to ridiculos sizes.
Face it guys, the Bush new ahead of time, and just because it was Clinton who was around when NK was making their nuclear reactors doesn't mean Bush never new of a possible nuke program there. It would be one of the things he'd be informed of when he entered office if he wasn't exactly mr. currentevents. Instead of taking proper action against this he did nothing. That makes enought to say it is his fault.
He had the power to do this, he simply did not act.
Regards
Originally posted by centurion1211
I just did a google search with the words "bush responsible", and on the very first page there were articles saying Bush was responsible for:
1) Iraq war - OK, this is true.
2) Hurricane Katrina - not the clean up mess, but the hurricane itself!
3) the rise in horror movies -
And that's just from the first page of results.
Man, this pres has his hands in everything! Quite an accomplishment for the dolt many here say Bush is.
Yes, the "Bush is responsible for (fill in the blank)" crowd many of you belong to is quite "interesting", "diverse" and "entertaining" with all your "ideas".
How does the old saying go, something like "If I had a dollar for every electron wasted blaming Bush for ..."
[edit on 10/10/2006 by centurion1211]
Originally posted by SmallMindBigIdeas
So, yes, I've changed my position on this issue ... the administration should've done some more pressuring/posturing with Pakistan to make sure they understood our position on their trading nuclear secrets with NK (or lack of security within their nuclear program that allowed this to occur). But we still can't make the jump in logic to conclude that had we done this Pakistan would've bowed to our will ... the pressuring could just as likely have led to strained relations.
Originally posted by Pyros
Really? And you know this how? The designs, specifications, and insructions on how to build a nuclear centrifuge could probably fit easily on a single hard drive.
It is a well-known fact that the lion's share of Pakistan's nuclear weapons program is directly attributable to the esteemed Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan. Khan obtained much of his expertise and knowledge of centrifuge design primarily via technical interchange with the Europeans in the 1970's. That which the Europeans would not share he physically stole from them. Before the Europeans bounched him out, Khan had built up an extensive network of technicans, scientists, and suppliers who he had become friendly with - in some cases simply by greasing their palms. When he returned to Pakistan he used this network to obtain the necessary materials to re-create European centrifuge designs, which ultimately led to the Pakistani nukes.
What the Pakistanis didn't have was a reliable delivery system. In steps Dear Leader, and a la technology transfer, Kim get his bomb designs and Pakistan gets their delivery system.
Khan's network of black market nuke scientists and suppliers made hundreds of millions of dollars, and we knew it was going on. Whether or not Mussarraf knew of it is debatable. I believe he didn't, or at least if it was happening it was going on against his wishes and orders.
The simple fact is that we knew that this was going on, but we didn't put our foot down because it was more important to gain and keep Pakistan as a valuable ally against the war on terrorism. Calling Mussarraf out could have damaged him very badly, politically, and we could not afford to lose him. There are dozens of less savory characters waiting in the wings in Pakistan just waiting for a chance to take over. Some very sympathetic to radical Islamic ideals. Those kinds of people, armed with nukes and ICBM's, are JUST AS DANGEROUS as North Korea. At least NK is an international pariah with little support from friends. We can keep them isolated. Pakistan is a COMPLETELY different story.
The reality is that at the time, it was (and is) more important to keep Pakistan stable and western-oriented in an effort to limit proliferation from their stockpile, than it was to worry about a half-starved looney with a bad haircut in Korea. If this means that we had to bite the bullet and let Mussarraf off the hook for not controlling his own people, then so be it.
For all we know, Mussarraf may have known the transfer was going on and not been able to stop it, despite his position of power.