Bush responsible For the North Korean Mess!! Read on!

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posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 10:44 AM
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When you qualify your posts with statements like these:


Originally posted by mikesingh
Well, I've been studying this since a number of years culling various intell reports and having some 'insider knowledge' that I cannot divulge.


and then, when called out to specify or clarify your "sources", you respond with,


Originally posted by mikesingh
I never asked you to believe it! The basic tenet in the field of intel is never to compromise your 'sources'. So, take it or leave it. The choice is yours.


you should not be surprised when you receive an acerbic rebuke. In the future, if I were you, I would preface your statements with "in my opinion", unless you are prepared to qualify your assertions with hard evidence and facts that support your claims. Especially something as outrageous as our current president being presonally responsible for North Koreas current nuclear capability.

By the way, your basic premise that Bush knew about the transfer of nuclear technology by Pakistan to North Korea and did nothing to stop it is flawed and incorrect. It is a well-know fact that there existed a rogue element within the Pakistani government / scientific community who were willing to sell nuclear secrets to the highest bidder, and North Korea was only one of many customers in line for this product. This element was able to facilitate this technology transfer under the guise of purchased MRBM technology - the delegations that travelled to NK to sell and train them on MRBM technologies also included a contingent of nuclear weapons scientists who (covertly) began selling the Dear Leader the blueprints for his own nukes. All this was undoubtedly going on right under the nose of Mussarraf.

And with the Clinton policy of "Lets try to reason with these people. If we get get some food in their bellies and convince them we aren't out to knock them off, they'll cooperate", the North Koreans secretly expanded their nuke research. The CIA sniffed this out, but hard evidence was lacking, and it certainly wasn't enought to convince the Clintonians to take a hard line, seeing that we had China looming in the background, wagging their finger at us, telling us not to mess around on their back porch. Clinton send Jimmy Carter to meet with the Dear Leader, and came home with a signed agreement that Kim would not pursue nuclear weapons. I wouldn't wipe my worst enemy's butt with that piece of paper, it's that worthless.

So, we proceeded to feed them and heat their homes, believing that we could get through to them with good will. In return, the North Korean regime starved their people nearly to death while simultaneously spending billions to develop ICBM and nuke weapon technology. By most accounts, more than a million North Koreans have starved to death since this "landmark" agreement.

911 changed so many more things than people realize. Talk about a "deer in the headlights" look on someone's face - GWB was already in way over his head, and 911 iced it. But he did not dig this hole we have gotten into. If anything, he is guilty of being distracted by lesser threats that are more politically appealing, but thats it.




posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 11:04 AM
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Originally posted by Pyros
It is a well-know fact that there existed a rogue element within the Pakistani government / scientific community who were willing to sell nuclear secrets to the highest bidder, and North Korea was only one of many customers in line for this product. This element was able to facilitate this technology transfer under the guise of purchased MRBM technology - the delegations that travelled to NK to sell and train them on MRBM technologies also included a contingent of nuclear weapons scientists who (covertly) began selling the Dear Leader the blueprints for his own nukes. All this was undoubtedly going on right under the nose of Mussarraf.


This is where the problem starts.. The whole concept of the source of proliferation being 'rogue' and being only and 'element' itself is flawed. And the US knows it. The rogue element theory has ulterior motives linked to success in the war in Afghanistan.
It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to conceive that technology as sensitive as n-weapons can be proliferated by a single man or a bunch of people for the duration known, w/o knowledge of the same by goeverning bodies. Moreover it is even more ridiculous to believe that a civilian can cary out such deception in a state which is practically ruled by the intelligence services and the army(irrespective of whether there is a democratic elected leader or not).
There is no ROGUE element.. He is a scapegoat. its a shame.. w/o him they (Pakistan)would have been nowhere on the N scene and now they use his name to save faces and names of many who control Pakistan today. Makes me wonder how many such 'Al-Qaeda' terrorist scapegoats exist, that Pakistan has captured and turned over.

The first line and the last line of the above quoted para are contradictory themselves. Musharraf was the DGMO (Director General military Ops)during the period of proliferation. He went to North Korea on those C-130s..

[edit on 10-10-2006 by Daedalus3]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 11:16 AM
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So what if NK sells a nuke to Iran? They need the money and know that the Iranian pres. will jump at the chance to wipe Israel off the map what do the Iranians have to lose If they think USA is going to bomb them to the stone age anyway. The Iranian pres. thinks its his duty to Allah. Hell with all the UN sanctions Kimmy will be selling the nukes like hot cakes to keep his war machine going and just guess who will be buying them. NK knows full well nobodys going to F*** with them even if they sell nukes and make it public, but I doubt they would until Israel is nuked. This is my guess I'm sure it could pan out a hundred ways but I think we are in for one f***** up ride are you ready for WWIII.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 11:20 AM
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Originally posted by SmallMindsBigIdeas
Knowing about it and being responsible for it are two different issues. Our ally supplied them nuclear parts ... we didn't ask our ally to do it.

Using this logic if I sell my friend a car and two years later he's driving drunk and kills someone then it's my fault. He is my friend after all and he was driving my old vehicle which he bought. I should've known what he was going to do and I must've set this all up. Uhhh ... okay.


Yhea, it's not your fault here, but an old car and a nuke aren't exactly the same thing are they? For those of you who still don't get my point - car=vehicle nuke=WMD, don't scale things down to ridiculos sizes.

Now isn't this the SAME reason the US went into Iraq for guys? Lets try some logic here. Operation Iraqi freedom (was unofficialy about oil yes) was officially about disarming Saddam was it not? The CIA all of a sudden had reports of Saddam having chem weapons and what not (I won't be surprised if they now say "look, NK has them, they shipped them there!" if they were going to attack), and heard of a possibility of those weapons getting in the hands of AQ. The actions taken against this are now-a-days known as the iraqi war. Now most people will say "true, but there were no WMDs in iraq". Yes, there weren't - but now applie the same scenario to NK. Catch my drift? We know dam well (and other people on this thread including the lovely person that posted the post i'm quoting seem to agree) that the US (befor or during the Bush administration) knew of a possible nuclear program going on in NK.
Maybe this is just me but I see a nuke a much bigger threat than a chem weapon. instead of carrying out any sort of responses to this threat Bush chose to run after the oil jackpot. Now even you Bush supporters can say that CIA didn't know about this. If they didn't then what is even the point of having them around? They're counted as one of the best in the world yet you're saying they can't detect even spot this out?

Face it guys, the Bush new ahead of time, and just because it was Clinton who was around when NK was making their nuclear reactors doesn't mean Bush never new of a possible nuke program there. It would be one of the things he'd be informed of when he entered office if he wasn't exactly mr. currentevents. Instead of taking proper action against this he did nothing. That makes enought to say it is his fault.
He had the power to do this, he simply did not act.

Regards



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3

If you have intel sources maybe you can tell me where Rabinder Singh is..



Virginia or Jackson Heights, New York. Go get him!!

And here's something from the horses mouth...

Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf, in his book 'In The Line of Fire', has provided sufficient evidence to hold Pakistan’s nuclear scientist, Dr A.Q. Khan, responsible for the clandestine development of the North Korean nuclear programme.

President Musharraf, in a very candid admission of the parallel nuclear network being run by Dr Khan, has written:“Dr Khan transferred nearly two dozen P-1 and P-11 centrifuges to North Korea. He also provided North Korea with a flow meter, some special oils for centrifuges, and coaching on centrifuge technology, including visits to top-secret centrifuge plants.”

In 1999 itself President Musharraf said Pakistan had entered into a government-to-government agreement with North Korea for the purchase of conventional ballistic missiles, including transfer of technology for “hard cash”. (nuke secrets?)

He also was aware that some North Korean nuclear experts, under the guise of missile engineers, had arrived at Khan Research Laboratories and were being given secret briefings on centrifuges, including some visits to the plant. And Pak's Inter Services Intelligence wasn't aware of it?

President Bush will now be facing flak for not insisting on interrogating Dr Khan and getting more details of Pakistan’s proliferation activities.


[edit on 10-10-2006 by mikesingh]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to conceive that technology as sensitive as n-weapons can be proliferated by a single man or a bunch of people for the duration known, w/o knowledge of the same by goeverning bodies. Moreover it is even more ridiculous to believe that a civilian can cary out such deception in a state which is practically ruled by the intelligence services and the army (irrespective of whether there is a democratic elected leader or not).


Really? And you know this how? The designs, specifications, and insructions on how to build a nuclear centrifuge could probably fit easily on a single hard drive.

It is a well-known fact that the lion's share of Pakistan's nuclear weapons program is directly attributable to the esteemed Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan. Khan obtained much of his expertise and knowledge of centrifuge design primarily via technical interchange with the Europeans in the 1970's. That which the Europeans would not share he physically stole from them. Before the Europeans bounched him out, Khan had built up an extensive network of technicans, scientists, and suppliers who he had become friendly with - in some cases simply by greasing their palms. When he returned to Pakistan he used this network to obtain the necessary materials to re-create European centrifuge designs, which ultimately led to the Pakistani nukes.

What the Pakistanis didn't have was a reliable delivery system. In steps Dear Leader, and a la technology transfer, Kim get his bomb designs and Pakistan gets their delivery system.

Khan's network of black market nuke scientists and suppliers made hundreds of millions of dollars, and we knew it was going on. Whether or not Mussarraf knew of it is debatable. I believe he didn't, or at least if it was happening it was going on against his wishes and orders.

The simple fact is that we knew that this was going on, but we didn't put our foot down because it was more important to gain and keep Pakistan as a valuable ally against the war on terrorism. Calling Mussarraf out could have damaged him very badly, politically, and we could not afford to lose him. There are dozens of less savory characters waiting in the wings in Pakistan just waiting for a chance to take over. Some very sympathetic to radical Islamic ideals. Those kinds of people, armed with nukes and ICBM's, are JUST AS DANGEROUS as North Korea. At least NK is an international pariah with little support from friends. We can keep them isolated. Pakistan is a COMPLETELY different story.

The reality is that at the time, it was (and is) more important to keep Pakistan stable and western-oriented in an effort to limit proliferation from their stockpile, than it was to worry about a half-starved looney with a bad haircut in Korea. If this means that we had to bite the bullet and let Mussarraf off the hook for not controlling his own people, then so be it. For all we know, Mussarraf may have known the transfer was going on and not been able to stop it, despite his position of power.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by Pyros
For all we know, Mussarraf may have known the transfer was going on and not been able to stop it, despite his position of power.


What you've said in your post was well analysed.

But I disagree with your contention that Musharraf may have known the transfer was going on but not been able to stop it, despite his position of power.

Because you may not be aware of sub continental dynamics especially where India - Pakistan relations and psyche are concerned. It goes back to 1947 and the single minded Pakistani quest for grabbing Kashmir from India, whatever the cost. But unfortunately for them all three wars ended in disaster. Especially in 1971 when Pakistan lost East Pakistan (now Bangladesh). It was an ignominous defeat for Pakistan wherein 90,000 Pakistani troops surrendered to the Indian Armed Forces. And they are still smarting under this disaster.

So much so that Musharraf as the Army Chief, planned and executed the Kargil war which again ended in disaster. He was a rabid India baiter.

The Pak Generals were (and are) baying for revenge and determined to get Kashmir whatever the cost. But there was huge force asymmetry where conventional forces were concerned. The only way out was to obtain offensive capability by having a nuclear arsenal. They finally got it. But no delivery systems were in place.

So what do they do? Enter into a quid pro quo with North Korea. 'You give us the delivery systems and we give you the secrets and equipment for manufacturing the bomb'. The rest is history.

But in this sordid tale, which the CIA knew full well, nothing was done to stop this clandestine trade.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 01:46 PM
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Ok, I like your post pyros. You have a great point, logical one too. I hate to be the one saying this though, seeing as no one else is;

The reason for not doing anything about this (as you yourself said the US did nothnig) is only credible if you are an American.

If it was not for the way Bush does politics this would not have happened. I'm very sure other countries around the world were aware of this going on, but would not do anything cause it was the US who had interests in a country who markets nukes. THEN WHY THE # DO YOU GO INVADING IRAQ AND NOT PAKISTAN THEN HUH??? According to you the US is trying to keep a leader in place who literally can't do jack about what his country does, or atleast not as much as needed. Why not overthrow him then instead of Saddam huh? A valuable asset to a "war on terrorism", LMAO, and the frontline for that is where by the way? Just don't say Iraq. What asset is Pakistan for that conflict anyways. If the US would have even issued the order for SF to go after Osama he would have been caught. Weather or not things would be over no one know. Personally I doubt it but i'm sure you see my point.

If it wasn't for Bush's foreign policies there would not be an issue between Ukraine and Russia, nor between Georgia and Russia. JUST like if the bush wouldn't be preaching world freedom and democracy while backing Saudi Arabia. Matter of fact, I'll go as far as saying if the US would stop being "friends" both India and Pakistan at the same time who hate each other there wouldn't be as much crap between the two. This is a common thing in US politics now-a-days. They claim to be great friends with Russia and supporters Ukraine while pumping more and more $ to the anti-russian gov. in ukraine.

That would sum up the view of someone living outside the US. If it's in the US interests it's not exactly in the entire worlds interests. So over all if the US wouldn't go oil hunting, actually respond to real instead of imagenary friends while yelling at other countries for intervetion I think this whole thing might have gone in a diff direction.

Regards

[edit on 10-10-2006 by maestro46]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 02:25 PM
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Maestro46,

Good questions....I wish I had good answers.

I guess the point to take away from this is that when choosing your leaders, those who demonstrate forsight, wisdom, and an acumen for geopolitics deserve great consideration......versus those leaders who lobby for office by simply catering to those brain-washed people who vote on single topics.....like abortion.

GWB has become a reactionist. His approach to geopolitics is akin to "herding cats". He is beholden to people with blinders on their heads. He has failed to demonstrate any proficiency is the subtle game of geoplotics.

That being said, Kim and his cronies had best not push too hard. GWB just might get that "message from God" look in his eyes and call for the B-2's.........



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 02:29 PM
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I just did a google search with the words "bush responsible", and on the very first page there were articles saying Bush was responsible for:

1) Iraq war - OK, this is true.

2) Hurricane Katrina - not the clean up mess, but the hurricane itself!

3) the rise in horror movies -


And that's just from the first page of results.

Man, this pres has his hands in everything! Quite an accomplishment for the dolt many here say Bush is.

Yes, the "Bush is responsible for (fill in the blank)" crowd many of you belong to is quite "interesting", "diverse" and "entertaining" with all your "ideas".

How does the old saying go, something like "If I had a dollar for every electron wasted blaming Bush for ..."

[edit on 10/10/2006 by centurion1211]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by Shamanator
Thanks to him country's like Afghanistan and Iraq now have hope of progress and Christianity.


It seems odd that the US, a nation where church and state are so divided, that imperialistic action would bring with it the hopeful spread of Christianity.




posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by Sri Oracle

Originally posted by Shamanator
Thanks to him country's like Afghanistan and Iraq now have hope of progress and Christianity.


It seems odd that the US, a nation where church and state are so divided, that imperialistic action would bring with it the hopeful spread of Christianity.



The word "imperialistic" denotes the conquering and holding of territory. Show us all, please, where the U.S. has done that since the beginning of the 20th century.

The U.S. is not "imperialistic". Any country defeated by the U.S. in a war has been returned to its own rule, many times with massive aid.

Imperialistic. Nice big word many here like to throw around - apparently without a clue as to what it really means.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 03:57 PM
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[sarcasm] Some kid in Wyoming got a splinter in his pinky toe.. GW DID IT!!! GET HIM!! [sarcasm]

I love how everything is blamed on GW



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 05:08 PM
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Humorously the individual who posted this thread claiming that the only reason NK has the nukes is because we let Pakistan give them to them so we could invade NK. He is upset over the potential for war with NK, but let me posit this: Would you rather we had invaded Pakistan? A country with known nuclear capabilities. We would still have gone to another war, which could have easily set a clearly volatile part of the world into complete chaos. It would have meant war either way.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by maestro46
Yhea, it's not your fault here, but an old car and a nuke aren't exactly the same thing are they? For those of you who still don't get my point - car=vehicle nuke=WMD, don't scale things down to ridiculos sizes.


Face it guys, the Bush new ahead of time, and just because it was Clinton who was around when NK was making their nuclear reactors doesn't mean Bush never new of a possible nuke program there. It would be one of the things he'd be informed of when he entered office if he wasn't exactly mr. currentevents. Instead of taking proper action against this he did nothing. That makes enought to say it is his fault.
He had the power to do this, he simply did not act.

Regards


The vehicle quote was meant to be tongue-in-cheek reference to the fact that these components were transported between Pakistan and NK using old US C130's that had been sold. As if they added to the culpability for the US administration.

I did some more reading into the matter at hand, probably should've done that before posting my smart a** remark. I can see the other side of the argument now but not sure I would still say this is 100%' Bush's "fault".

Yes, Pakistani nuclear components made their way into NK. The official story from the Pakistani government is that this occured without their knowledge or permission and was coordinated by Abdel Qadeer Khan, a top Pakistani nuclear scientist. He's been removed from Pakistan's nuclear program but for some reason was pardoned and lives under house arrest ... seems a light sentence for someone accused of such crimes. However, one article I found said that he is considered a state hero for his work on Pakistan's nuclear program and they may have done that to appease the general populace.

Here's and interesting article on the general issue: Washingon Post Article on NK-Pakistan

With Pakistan denying any direct government involvement in the trade I'm not sure what political pressure would be appropriate to put on a country that is not only a nuclear power but also considered an ally. Obviously some pressure was exerted in their lead scientist was removed from power and placed under house arrest.

I will agree that with the information currently at hand it seems strongly their might be some Pakistani government involvement in the trades with NK. I mean how exactly are nuclear components not being kept under a tight lock and key and subject to strict government control. I can agree that for Pakistan there is either involvement or wide-spread corruption that their government allowed to continue.

So, yes, I've changed my position on this issue ... the administration should've done some more pressuring/posturing with Pakistan to make sure they understood our position on their trading nuclear secrets with NK (or lack of security within their nuclear program that allowed this to occur). But we still can't make the jump in logic to conclude that had we done this Pakistan would've bowed to our will ... the pressuring could just as likely have led to strained relations.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 08:58 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211


I just did a google search with the words "bush responsible", and on the very first page there were articles saying Bush was responsible for:

1) Iraq war - OK, this is true.

2) Hurricane Katrina - not the clean up mess, but the hurricane itself!

3) the rise in horror movies -


And that's just from the first page of results.

Man, this pres has his hands in everything! Quite an accomplishment for the dolt many here say Bush is.

Yes, the "Bush is responsible for (fill in the blank)" crowd many of you belong to is quite "interesting", "diverse" and "entertaining" with all your "ideas".

How does the old saying go, something like "If I had a dollar for every electron wasted blaming Bush for ..."

[edit on 10/10/2006 by centurion1211]


I just did the same and i found people saying bush is responsible for Mad Cow, Sars and Monkey pox.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by SmallMindBigIdeas

So, yes, I've changed my position on this issue ... the administration should've done some more pressuring/posturing with Pakistan to make sure they understood our position on their trading nuclear secrets with NK (or lack of security within their nuclear program that allowed this to occur). But we still can't make the jump in logic to conclude that had we done this Pakistan would've bowed to our will ... the pressuring could just as likely have led to strained relations.


But let me say that aftrer 9/11, Bush warned Musharraf that he'd be 'bombed back to the stone age if he did not stop his active support to the Taliban'.

He stopped pronto. And the Taliban were routed. It's another thing they've regrouped now, what with massive injection of arms supplies and the resumption of logistics support by Pakistan. NATO is livid and have warned Pakistan indirectly to 'lay off'. You see, the Pakis want a pliable government in Afghanistan because of their so called misplaced need for 'strategic depth' against India. What better way to do this than the Taliban?

Another thing that amuses is that GWB said yesterday that North Korea has indulged in the worst kind of missile proliferation by tranferring missiles and related technology to Syria and Iran. But why has he shied away from naming Pakistan? The plot thickens!

[edit on 10-10-2006 by mikesingh]



posted on Oct, 11 2006 @ 03:24 AM
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In the doctrines of war an important tactic is to spin the smoking gun into the hands of whom you want to have it.

Everybody knows - at least in Europe - that American policies for a decade or more has been to let NK get the bomb. Just in case, "if fire them we're forced to, then fire them we must", there would be a nice little target unable to retaliate when first struck (and China won't bother that much if they get properly conpensated).

I'm not able to contribute much facts over what's already brought forward, commen knowledge among Europeans and a strong believe prevails there, that the script has been long written, so for Gods sake keep Pakistan out of it, they're on our side. When all hell is to break loose, George double trouble have already taken care that the technology required for India to deal with Pakistan, has been transfered from US. Much the same way it allowed Pakistan to transfere it to NK.
But I can give you a slightly sarcastic poem I've written on the subject (please forgive me, I just couldn't help it):

Oh America, you haunted and beautiful
Land of the rich, governed by freedom rule
You are mislead by power and deluded by conceit
Still we owe you everything we ever did need

You saved us from ourselves, our own glorification
After you had choked a few in firestorms of Dresden
You took us out of the rubble, and without any regret
Commanding all of our needs should be met

Who can blame you? you never wanted world power
You humbly unselfish only wanted to be the light shining from the freedom tower
And whomever tried to extinguish that light was sure to feel your anger
Any little commie rotten dirty wanker

But freedom for one is suppression for another
You can take what you want but there'll always be someone who bothers
That's your policy, a game with many names
But who is to blame? I think the one who another frames



In preparing for war great deligence is put on sowing fear and hate in the heart of people. It's done by misinformation, which in turn to get accepted takes ignorance.
That's what makes it hard to watch many of these warmonger threads - as they appear on ATS. There're threads now seriously discussing how to survive, and - God grieve - win a nuclear war. That's beyond ignorance, that's arrogance.

I try not to contribute to such threads, but sometimes I can't help amidst all the ignorance and self glorification to try to point out consequences of detonating nuclear devices in the atmosphere. Little does it help. Maybe you can deny ignorance, but when people are deprived proper information you cannot fight it. This is a more factual thread so I give it another try here, but before I do let me say, except for two or three early posts, this thread is highly disposionate and serious, but still reveals little thought as to the mechanisme that triggers a war. Actually they are quite simple.

Not even Hitler could have startet a war if he didn't have had the German people to want it. When people want the war, it will come. That's the trick, to make people want the war. And I see more and more the frustration and hate getting a voice by this neo-con spin, talking about "useable nukes" and NWO.

My dear American fellow-citizens, you're losing your dream and now you think you can win it back by war. You can't! At the "best" you can solve the problem of overpopulation - and create numerous new ones.

Duck, dive'n hide just won't work.



posted on Oct, 11 2006 @ 04:24 AM
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Originally posted by Pyros
Really? And you know this how? The designs, specifications, and insructions on how to build a nuclear centrifuge could probably fit easily on a single hard drive.

True..I'm not debating the data size constraints here..

I'm talking about the impossibility of governing bodies(read: intelligence services and the army) being supposedly 'unaware' of the very proceedings of proliferate activities.
If that were the case then the adversaries of Pakistan would have bought Khan out much before he was coerced into his supposed unilateral proliferation activities. The nuclear activities of Pakistan were highly monitored and closely guarded by the Pak army and intellignece services. If they weren't (and supposedly allowed individual action w/o ogverning consent), then the likes of Mossad and Raw would gotten in long ago.



It is a well-known fact that the lion's share of Pakistan's nuclear weapons program is directly attributable to the esteemed Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan. Khan obtained much of his expertise and knowledge of centrifuge design primarily via technical interchange with the Europeans in the 1970's. That which the Europeans would not share he physically stole from them. Before the Europeans bounched him out, Khan had built up an extensive network of technicans, scientists, and suppliers who he had become friendly with - in some cases simply by greasing their palms. When he returned to Pakistan he used this network to obtain the necessary materials to re-create European centrifuge designs, which ultimately led to the Pakistani nukes.

Khan left the Netherlands on his own free will and on an invite by Z Bhutto to take control of the Pak nuclear program afer India's peaceful tests in 1974. The Dutch tried to convict him for stealing information but the case failed on some technicalities.



What the Pakistanis didn't have was a reliable delivery system. In steps Dear Leader, and a la technology transfer, Kim get his bomb designs and Pakistan gets their delivery system.

No arguements here. Obviously the trade-off could not have happened w/o Pak military/intelligence/government backing. AQ Khan wasn't earning the quick buck so to speak.



Khan's network of black market nuke scientists and suppliers made hundreds of millions of dollars, and we knew it was going on. Whether or not Mussarraf knew of it is debatable. I believe he didn't, or at least if it was happening it was going on against his wishes and orders.

Really? And you know this how?



The simple fact is that we knew that this was going on, but we didn't put our foot down because it was more important to gain and keep Pakistan as a valuable ally against the war on terrorism. Calling Mussarraf out could have damaged him very badly, politically, and we could not afford to lose him. There are dozens of less savory characters waiting in the wings in Pakistan just waiting for a chance to take over. Some very sympathetic to radical Islamic ideals. Those kinds of people, armed with nukes and ICBM's, are JUST AS DANGEROUS as North Korea. At least NK is an international pariah with little support from friends. We can keep them isolated. Pakistan is a COMPLETELY different story.

True... but look at it this way.. N Korea would not have been where it was today w/o Pakistan N support. You make the calls and you take responsibility for the compromises..
A Nuclear North Korea or a badly spanked Musharraf with a beaten ego..
Looks like you made your choice..



The reality is that at the time, it was (and is) more important to keep Pakistan stable and western-oriented in an effort to limit proliferation from their stockpile, than it was to worry about a half-starved looney with a bad haircut in Korea. If this means that we had to bite the bullet and let Mussarraf off the hook for not controlling his own people, then so be it.


Severely reprimanding Musharraf would not have compromised any objectives in the war on Terror, only made him realise that you meant business.
Now he plays it as he hears, meaning he makes big statements for public consumption while NATO/US ground forces along with afghanistan are facing a resuregent taleban....AND you have Nuclear North Korea.



For all we know, Mussarraf may have known the transfer was going on and not been able to stop it, despite his position of power.

Really? And you know this how?
And what higher authority would have prevented his actions?
Maybe a recap of the Pak Army hierarchy and its control on Pakistani politics is required.



posted on Oct, 11 2006 @ 09:43 PM
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I am far from an avid die hard Bush supporter, but . .. .

FACTS are FACTS ..... . ..

1) Technically America has been at war with North Korea since the 1950s. We have only had a "cease fire" aka "amnisty" (sp?) with them, the war with North Korea NEVER ENDED!!!

2) George W. Bush was not even poddy trained when it started.

So, are you totally sure he is totally responsible?

i mean, america has already overthrown the goverment of Afghanistan in the past 5 years, something that has not been accomplished since Alexander the Great a couple thousand years ago.

and we .... . . well whatever we did in iraq . ... .. .

far be it from me to point out the extent of military cutbacks made by George Bush's predicesor .. .. . .

to blame one man for North Korea having the nuclear bomb is .. well .. .

obsurd, considering President Bush has never even been to North Korea.

i concede he shares in the blame, but certainly not all of it.





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