Bush responsible For the North Korean Mess!! Read on!

So let me get this straight- you're blaming Bush for something Pakistan did. pakistan, who has been harassing India for years. Pakistan, largest supplier of men and materiel to AQ and the Taliban. Pakistan, teetering on the brink of economic and social collapse.

He may have known, but what's he gonna do to a SOVEREIGN COUNTRY?

Oh, liberals. So, you don't want him interfering with horrible dictatorships like Saddam's, yet you want him to somehow magically stop another dictatorship from giving its own technology to a third, sovereign country? Would you not scream 'illegal war'?

Are you lessez faire, or just very very selective?

DE

Originally posted by kozmo

Originally posted by DickBinBush
Yes, I was under the belief that it was DENY IGNORANCE here at ATS as well..

So tell me..if you support Bush or claim he's the best president ever..aren't you embracing ignorance there? I was also under the assumption if you EMBRACE bush..then you're embracing ignorance..just a thought..

I bet creating that overly circuitous fallacious argument gave you a headache, didn't it? Ever hear of a Non-Sequitur??? You just committed one! Nowhere in my post did I state that I support Bush, yet you insinuate as much - hence my diagnosis for what ailes ATS... Ignorance, far too much of it.

Again, a history book, some timely and reputable periodicals and the ability to use that lump between your ears for something more than a hat stand might yield some useful information on the matter. Thank you.

Look at this guy trying to save himslef. To me it seems like this guy spends more time memorizing the dictionary instead of reading history books.

At least kozmo doesn't use those irritating smiley faces. Okay, maybe that was a little childish. Seriously though maestro, you're one of those people who would blame Bush for ANYTHING and EVERYTHING (bad). It's becoming the sad, sad liberal cope-out.

Here is a link to a cnn article that has a chronology of events. It seems to me that Clinton was the president that allowed two reactors to be built by Americans in NK

cnn article

Bush may have agraveted the situation when he basically refused to be blackmailed by North Korea.

It's an interesting read.

I'll also be curious how China regards being slighted by North Korea. China asked that North Korea not proceed with the test but North Korea went ahead with the tests anyway.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people believe that the policies and actions of Bush & Co are the root of all world evils. While the man most certainly is a political dolt, he is not responsible for North Korea's nuclear capability. That country has been pursuing nukes for many, many years......long before GWB came into office. Nor is the United States the sole stakeholder or responsible party in the North Korean issue.

These rantings, to me, are typical of a generation of young, uneducated, and inexperienced people who believe that bad things done by bad people must be the fault of someone else. Personal responsibility for one's actions, whether on an individual level or on a national level, seem to be a lost concept. It's always easier to blame the problem on someone else - especially some big, easy target - because facing the problem directly takes courage, determination, and force of will.....something that much of today's generation sadly lacks.

North Korea chose to obtain nuclear weapons because they are ruled by evil men who only understand the concept of power through violence, threats, and aggression. This concept has served them well for 50 years, as they have been able to hold off their westernized enemies while simultaneously enslaving their own population. The possession of nuclear weapons is the next logical step in the natural progression of solidifying their power through the terrorizing of their neighbors and their citizens.

Normally, in a situation like this, one would hope that the general populace would rise up against their oppressors (and, believe me, "oppressors" is putting it mildly) and cast off their chains of oppression. This can be facilitated by putting military, politcal, and economic pressure on the regime, while simultaneously providing tacit support to the general population and resistance movements, either in the form of real support or moral support. However, seeing how the NK regime is so utterly repressive and violent, I fear the general NK population simply lacks the strength and the will to rise up. In the mean time, the rest of the world must now live in the shadow of the nuclear-armed despot who is by all accounts is off his rocker and in bad need of psychotherapy.

If Bush is responsible for ANYTHING, its for getting us so deeply involved in stupid quagmires like Iraq (and Afghanistan, to a lesser extent) that we are now physically unable to make credible threats against the likes of Iran and NK, who now possess or are attempting to posess those same WMD's that were the original boogeymen of our current follies........

...for lending credence to all of my posts in this thread. You have done a marvelous job of supporting my claim that ATS has been beseached by ignorance!

Still no links or anything of that sort from Kozmo. I don't know about you people, I've already lost faith in him. I'm not taking a stab at you beacuse I "think" you're a bush supporter, but because your argument lacks any fact and is merely hating on everyone, so I guess it's you who misunderstood my post. If you're so big on history or periodicals say something besides "ATS IS FULL OF IGNORANCE, NA NA".
So far your claim is the most baseless one, that and you're just name calling, grow up. I'd ask you for the author of that quote of your's but i'm afraid you wouldn't be bothered again to post any proff of your answer seeing as i'm just another ATS ignorant idiot.

kozmo,

I never once designated you as the target of my post. Why you brought it upon yourself to make yourself the target, I have no clue. You mentioned denying ignorance, and I took it the opposite way that you said, but then directed it at Bush supporters.

If you embrace Bush, you embrace ignorance, end of story.

I,for one,dont care whos to blame for this,Im more interested in what happens now and how to prevent things from getting out of hand.Hind sight is always 20/20,and looking back at what started this,isnt gonna bring about an end.

Originally posted by DickBinBush
kozmo,

I never once designated you as the target of my post. Why you brought it upon yourself to make yourself the target, I have no clue. You mentioned denying ignorance, and I took it the opposite way that you said, but then directed it at Bush supporters.

If you embrace Bush, you embrace ignorance, end of story.

The end of the story is that your argument is a non-sequitur. It is a fallacy of the highest order. It holds no water.

And Meastro, I don't believe I need to provide links to substantiate my claim that political hacks and ignorance have permeated ATS - I can simply refer to your posts as evidence. Good day!

Originally posted by kozmo
...for lending credence to all of my posts in this thread. You have done a marvelous job of supporting my claim that ATS has been beseached by ignorance!

Yup, and the world is being overrun by the mole people. For crying out loud, I wonder how far I would get if I was running around calling every person who doesn't agree with me an ignorant idiot. The point of a forum is to provide feedback, and you're not doing that.

PS: It's hillarious how short your posts are and the amount of big words they contain.

[edit on 9-10-2006 by maestro46]

Originally posted by undecided2
At least kozmo doesn't use those irritating smiley faces. Okay, maybe that was a little childish. Seriously though maestro, you're one of those people who would blame Bush for ANYTHING and EVERYTHING (bad). It's becoming the sad, sad liberal cope-out.

Does putting smilies in my post make the post any worse, not really. Personally i don't care if you like them or not.

Have you seen me posting on in other threads about bush responsible for anything and everything? I doubt you have even if I was. For the record I don't, but if someone blames him for alot of things doesn't mean he simply labels all the man's actions an act of evil.

I like what pyros is saying. My only argument to that is; if US UK and Russia have special forces (plz plz plz don't start arguing about who has better) that are capable of destroying countries infrastructures, assasintaing, causing revolutions in countries, or sabotage of any target anywhere in the world (and they have proved themselves more then capable in the past) one would drop out the thought of "they couldn't, or it would be impossible" and assume that they simply weren't given the order. I have absolutely no doubt in US intel. There's no way they would have missed this (matter of fact like i said earlier news of this started shortly after the "Operation Iraqi Freedom").

[edit on 9-10-2006 by maestro46]

Here's a novel idea .. how about we start blaming the whacks and the criminals for their own actions instead of blaming everyone else??? N. Korea is to blame for it's OWN problems and for it being a problem.

Blame North Korea.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Here's a novel idea .. how about we start blaming the whacks and the criminals for their own actions instead of blaming everyone else??? N. Korea is to blame for it's OWN problems and for it being a problem.

Blame North Korea.

My friend, now one here is letting NK get off the hook or saying they're inocent little blue-eyed angels who had a detonator placed in their hands by the US. In world politics quite often there is always more than one person to blame, keep that in mind. The reason the US is getting so much blame is because they new about this and did nothing (considering the fact that they're all about stopping communism and world peace). You have a good point though.

Sorry people but it looks like that even if the cooperation between Pakistan and Korea is true it goes since 1997. Yes, it's true it was during Clinton administration. Also NK withdrew their promise to not make nukes sometimes in 2002, just one year after Bush took office and it looks like their covert nuclear programme was alive long before. So although I think that GWB is disasterous president in almost all aspects, he is hardly the fault in this case.

Now it is no secret that I don't like Bush, nor the new right in general. However, as someone pointed out ultimately the blame can not be on Bush, or America or China - but on N. Korea. They are the ones that did it, they should take the blame....

That said though, no action exists alone. Every action produces other actions. So how can anyone blame Bush???

Bush and N. Korea - 2005

"On Sept. 19, 2005, North Korea signed a widely heralded denuclearization agreement with the United States, China, Russia, Japan and South Korea. Pyongyang pledged to "abandon all nuclear weapons and existing nuclear programs." In return, Washington agreed that the United States and North Korea would "respect each other's sovereignty, exist peacefully together and take steps to normalize their relations." Four days later, the U.S. Treasury Department imposed sweeping financial sanctions against North Korea designed to cut off the country's access to the international banking system, branding it a "criminal state" guilty of counterfeiting, money laundering and trafficking in weapons of mass destruction."

But still the blame must be laid at N. Korea's feet - Bush and thm may not be directly responsible or to be blamed for the Nukes, but they are clearly not innocent in any stretch of the imagination.

Well I hate to say this but I'm going to have to be the Devils Advocate:
North Korea started doing nuclear research in the late 90's hence if anyone is at blame Bill clinton deserves as much blame as anyone else.


There I said it.

But George Bush has wanted to have 6 party talks for more that a year now so i guess he's been wanting to stop Kim.

i didn't even know that Pakistan was our Ally in this or am I mistaken.


TRw

Greetings...

perhaps this earlier post in another part of the forum will be of interest...

D. Rumsfield, North Korea, and the nuclear reactors!

Originally posted by D4rk Kn1ght
money.cnn.com...


Damn will you just have a look at this above link.... read it all the way to the end, and it will choke you with shock the sheer duplicity of the Americans! It goes way back to the early 1990's - and just look at what they were doing just 3 days after september the 11th....talk about a buried news story!!

heres a snippet from the article

Two months later the DOE, after consulting with Rumsfeld's Pentagon, renewed the authorization to send nuclear technology to North Korea. Groundbreaking ceremonies attended by Westinghouse and North Korean officials were held Sept. 14, 2001--three days after the worst terror attack on U.S. soil.

[edit on 9-10-2006 by D4rk Kn1ght]

Wow, big claims, no evidence.

The N Korea issue is a problem, I feel if Bush doesn't do something about it he will have admitted we never went to Iraq for WMDs and we are not pestering Iran over them either.

To say Bush gave them nukes, wants them to have nukes, even flew the parts there through a 3rd party is sad and I think the poster needs to come back down to the real world and stop worrying about political involvment.

Just keep going on about homosexual scandles in the house or some other crap like that, I seem to be hearing more about homos in the house of reps then I do news over N Korea, do not try and politicize this.

Kozmo
you dolts will find just about anything to blame on Bush and parrot it around like the morons that you are.

Typical.


When you wake up one day and the constitution no longer exists and it all becomes clear who all was behind it 'all' we will see who the dolts and morons really are.





At this point I will not go as far as placing ALL the blame on Bush but he deffininitely aided and abetted, albeit perhaps unwittingly (Hopefully) because of his failed policies. Like Pyros said:

If Bush is responsible for ANYTHING, its for getting us so deeply involved in stupid quagmires like Iraq (and Afghanistan, to a lesser extent) that we are now physically unable to make credible threats against the likes of Iran and NK, who now possess or are attempting to posess those same WMD's that were the original boogeymen of our current follies........

Again.. I don't think I can blame Bush directly for the NK's nuke test but he deffinitely sped things up with this whole pre-emptive doctrine. The other day Bush said the only way to fight terror was to 'take the fight directly to it's doorstep' and 'spread democracy' to the whole world I do not agree with this. We have and can win battles and wars but to truly 'win' a war on terror you have to 'conquer' the entire world which AIN'T gonna' happen. Looks like we are going to try but I'm pretty sure what the outcome of that is going to be... It's written in the good book of Revelations.

My other questions is why on earth did we not attack N. Korea before Iraq? It was competely self evidently obvious that they were a MUCH greater threat...

Just read this on infowars.com

www.infowars.com...

Kim-Jong-il may be a mentally unstable lunatic but he's not short of geopolitical nous. He knows that the Bush war machine only targets defenseless tinpot dictators and leaves real members of the nuclear club alone.

So why is that? Why does the Bush war machine only target 'defenseless tinpot dictators'?

Surely he knows that taking out ONLY the 'defenseless ones' is not going to fix the whole situation right?


Will leave it at that for now.

[edit on 9-10-2006 by ViewFromTheStars]