Its gonna kick off in the UK first! *Muslim troubles that is!*, page 7
Pages: <<  4    5    6    7  >>
ATS Members have flagged this thread 0 times


reply posted on 12-10-2006 @ 06:39 PM by Mcphisto
Oh and heres another one for you!!! Now Apple are in for it!

memri.org...

When will it end eh? All they (muslim extremists) can do is look for a reason to protest! Is it in the koran or something?

"thou must burn flags or effigys"
"thou shall not have any understanding of the world"

Over to someone else now who thinks I am a racist.


reply posted on 13-10-2006 @ 02:54 PM by Nygdan
fred3110
where planet are you from!!?? [...]how dare you say that if the people of this country speak out against the injustices and discrimination this goverment endorses they deserve to be branded as racist, where in the uk are you from??

I am from a planet where people actually read and pay attention to someone's comments before making non sequitor responses. I never said that people who disagree with a policy that unfairly favours one race over another is a racist. If you want to have a conversation with people, you're going to have to pay attention to what they are saying, not react to imaginary fantasy.

jimmyscumbag
however if you speak to any of the locals here they will tell you many examples of poor intergration in the east-end of London. Now it is common knowledge that the muslims that inhabit the east of London 'clump together' as it where, you can say what you want, i KNOW it to be the case.

It seems more like the locals are demanding too much. Immigrants don't have to do anything other than obey the law, and most of them make efforts to learn the language and basic culture. In turn, the native population is expected to learn and understand theirs.
In the US, for example, hispanic culture has largely been integrated into 'american' culture, and as a result, hispanics are generally themselves well integrated into america. Thats what assimilation is, its not rigid conformity for immigrants to the local culture, so that they are near clones or indistinguishable from anyone else, its acceptance and tolerance between the two.
I mean i have heard muslims saying that England will become 'New Pakistan', i mean thats not exageration.

Why shouldn't they bring parts of their home culture with them? Miami in the US is like a 'new latin america', and its great because of that. Whats the problem with some parts of england being full of islamic culture?
is that i am physically not allowed to go to Saudi Arabia.

THe pakistanis are hardly responsible for the actions of saudi arabia, and saudi arabia is hardly a 'goal' for england to strive for.
Yet we work around them here, sorry im lost, when was this ok???

Its called basic human civility, its allways been ok. The saudis are intolerant bastards, that doesn't mean the britishers should be.

Originally posted by buckaroo
I dont know , doubt its a lot though otherwise you can damn well sure we'd have heard about it in the press
,
What makes you say that? It seems that the press is just as interested in portraying the muslims as a problem as anyone else.

where am I clamouring for Anti Muslim laws eh ? and if you are insuating that I am actively calling and or hoping for Anti Muslim Riots you are sadly mistaken and Infact I take offence.

Ok, I apologizse. That is the intent of this thread, that there are going to be muslim riots and we need to take action against them.
because of the way that they are seeming to be placed on a pedestal when it comes to there views

I think that the big problem is that that is just a perception, they aren't placed on a pedastal. They permited to do what any other british citizen is permited to do, disagree, vocally and strongly, with their government.

why cant people fly the English flag ?

They can.

this is England , why the police even have to tip off Top Muslim leaders in this country before making anti terror raids

Why not? IT makes sense for the police to try to work with muslim leaders to make sure everything goes smoothyl.
, and theese people do not have to sign the official secrets act

? Huh? Whats that?
, Muslims come accross as arrogant and aloof one law for them another for us as it were

Such as what laws?
Also we see almost on a weekly basis Muslims around the world Burning our flags , threataning to blow us up , rioting over cartoons for goodness sake , we see So called Muslim leaders in this country being aloud to incite violence against us ,do you think theese are giving a good impression ?

Of course they're not. The people rioting in other countries are idiots. The muslim clerics that are calling for the violent destruction of britain should be treated as a criminal, like anyone that does so. British law, however, lets people call for that, muslim or otherwise. I don't know what the hell they are thinking going to england and then saying 'england sux, lets revolt', but, apparently, the british laws permit that. Its their right. If the rest of britain is upset about them exercising their rights, then thats their problem.

, I woulld like to see more stories about ordinairy Muslim subjects renouncing AQ and the like , but they don't seem to be very forthcoming do they ?

You just explained why you don't see those stories, because they're not interseting stories and they don't sell copies or increase ratings. I constantly see muslim groups in the US at least denouncing these attacks, promoting cooperation with the jews, working for better relations, asserting that, yes, they did indeed immigrat because they like the US, etc. But it doesn't sell copy and it doesn't cathc people's interest.


I didn't say I was going to do it , simply stating that whilst the police close off roads arounf Finsbury park so theese folk can do this ,

Why shouldn't the police cooperate with fully legal demonstrations??
I would be in the back of a police van and all over the front page of the guardian being called a racist within hours

What people have organized civil, legal protests speaking out for better relations between muslims and other britishers, and condeming the views of people that want to destroy the west and england, and have been arrested???
As a final note on the police thing , you are saying that racism is right are you because thats what that case racism and that is wrong any way you look at it , or is it alright if it aimed at a whtie Englishman Nydgan?

I don't understand what you are saying. You have story about a guy who wasn't hired because the police wanted to hire qualifed muslims. Whats wrong with that? Its not an example of people suppressing another people, its white police admins opting to hire more muslims, who are qualified anyway, in order to have better community relations.
If you were living in saudi arabia, wouldn't you think that it'd be snart of the authorities to hire anglo police officers to police the anglos, that those officers would understand anglo culture better and because of that be better cops??
in the way that as in modern British society any one who says antyhing that is not 100% pro Muslim or 100% pro "multicultarism" is labeled a bigot , which is both disgusting and disturbing in equal measure in my opinion , Nygdan is a prime example of this sort of person

Oh, so now i'm the bigot for disagreeing with you? Here's a hint, if you don't like other cultures for being different, you are a bigot, thats the damned definition of the word. I never said that because a person isn't wildly pro-muslim that they are a bigot, or that a person must, for example, remove their cross if it offends muslims. I have said the opposite. I have merely additionally said that muslims have every right in the world, as fully equal citizens, to say that they are offended when they are.
Saying that muslims shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinions is bigoted. Is that what you are saying, because you've said that no, you aren't calling for muslims to be suppresed, but then saying that I am saying you are a bigot. I have said that peopel that are taking bigoted actions are bigoted, so are you or aren't you taking bigoted actions?
stifle the legitimate conerns of the ordinary man in the street with a blanket or political correctness

I have done absolutely nothing of hte sort and rather it is you that have called for people, specifically muslims, to be stiffled in the streets. If you disagree with the radical mullahs, go out and say it, you are fully within your rights, and it'd be correct to disagree with lunatics who are calling for jihad against england. Whats I am saying is wrong is to say that muslims aren't allowed to exercise their legal rights, or that they should be forced to live identically to other britons (which others seem to be saying).

retinoidreceptor
The British people have every right to be worried and angry over the Islamic radical infestation that is occurring in their country and all of Europe.

Yes. But they don't have a right to restrict the rights of muslims merely because they have unpopular views. If they are calling for violent revolution agains tthe state, thats one thing, but as long as they aren't breaking any laws, then there can't and shouldn't be any legal action against them.
And so many people are so fast to say America is just violent ignoring the fact that we get millions of impoverished immigrants from poor countries every year.

And because america is able to accept other cultures, there is far less problems in american in terms of immigration than in europe, for example. When there were muslims rioting in paris, there were muslims peacefully co-exisitng with their neigbhors in Detroit. We respect them, and they respect us. If we don't respect the, if we make silly demands on them, like telling them that they aren't allowed to disagree with us, they'd, rightfully, resent us and disrespect us.


malganis
But we could stop these new waves of immigrants who aren't benefiting our country at all.

But the point is that the danes, normans, etc, weren't a benefit to the native population, certainly not at first. Indeed, the Danelaw was never a benefit for the non-danes, and who is to really say that Norman rule, which threw england into war in europe for generations, was a 'good thing'???? Why would violent and invading anglos be a good thing for england, but legal immigration of south asians not be???
There have been loads of posts on ATS about UK going downhill, UK crime rates and UK riot predictions and they've all turned towards immigration.

And I am sure if we had personal records of the average native living under anglo rule, norman rule, or under the Danelaw, that they'd say 'someone's gotta do something about these savages, they're running amuk!" Ultimately, everyone reconciled, got together, and now they don't even recognize the differences between themselves, they're all 'british'. One day, the pakistanis and indians and anglos won't think of one another as such, they will just naturally consider everyone to be british. THe muslims are being presented as some unusual or particularly unique threat, they're not, they're like every other immigrant population, if anything, they are less violent, since they didn't come as conquerors, and certainly they learn the language better than the Normas, for example.
Once again looking back in history, those races living in Britain have all benifited us in some way. Pakistanis leeching off of our Government spending instead of their own doesn't benifit us at all.

The normans, anglos, jutes, danes, all 'leeched' off the system when they arrived, and created special laws for themselves. The muslim immigrants have already more succesffuly integrated themselves into english culture than those other groups did at similar points in their time here.
We don't need to add any more races to British heritage

Too bad, its happening.
especially if it's going to hinder the country

You haven't been able to show that its a net drain on the country, or that pakistanis and the like are somehow incapable of contributing to the country.
and especially if the public don't want it and it can be stopped.

The public doesn't have a choice. If they don't want muslims in their country, they shouldn't've let them in. The UK lets peopel that want to live there come there, thats a pretty reasonable policy.
And it also seems that they don't have to fit in with our religious statements but we have to fit in with theirs.

No, you don't. When the muslims say 'we don't have to worship jesus like these errant idolator british', they are absolutely right, they don't have to. And when a non-muslim says, 'i don't have to follow the silly and errant muslim religion', they are right, they don't have to.
One of my friends sons was made to remove a crucifix necklace because it offended some of his middle-eastern classmates who were sitting there in there big turbans or whatever which they were allowed to keep wearing

Is this someting that you know happened or heard happened?
Who's fault is it if this kid removed the crucifix? THe teachers? The muslims? Or his? Its clearly his fault. There is no law in england that requires the removal of religious items. He was not required to remove the crucifix by the law, and shouldn't have. Its hardly the fault of the muslims that this kid was weak enough to do so. THey are within their rights to say 'i find that stupid cross offensive', and the kid is in his rights to say 'too bad'.
But it's like Brits have to live by the immigrants rules!

But you don't! Its you brits that are deciding that you should do this, no one is forcing you. THe suggestion that a student wearing a cross is offensive is laughable. But rather than laugh at it, the brits comply, and then grumble at their compliance. Thats not the muslims fault, that the brits fault.

k4rupt
No Muslim WOULD DARE even think about causing this kind of trouble in the U.S.

What do you mean 'dare'? You make it sound like he'd catch a beating if he did. THe muslims in the US realize that they don't need to take offense to christians, because the christians aren't telling them that they have to act a certain way or else they'll be seen as a threat.


Mcphisto
Oh and this is the best bit, if it got too cold during the winter, buses were hired for them to sit in, to keep them warm!!!

And this is a problem because????
While around the corner in the hospital people were waiting on stretchers in corridors of the hospital for a bed to become available!

You suggest that the hospital should
How many new rooms for a hospital would the bus money provide? One? Maybe two? Wheres the sense in it. Seems more like you want the non-muslims to be treated better than the muslims, that its better to let, by your count, hundreds of muslims be out in the cold, than to have one or two non-muslims in a bed, in a hospital, but in a hall instead of a room.
Or old folks sitting at home with no heating coz the government wouldnt give them enough pension to buy coalor gas!

Sounds more like the old people are leeching off the state than anything else.
The only way the BNP wont get in within the next 15yrs is because there will be more immigrants than Britons!

Its already been noted that the BNP makes spectacularly small showings at the polls.
memri.org...

Ok, so let me get this straigh, muslims have no right to be upset or speak openly, they have to just keep quite and never complain in order to be 'accepted"?
Apple is building a replica of the Kabba in NYC, calling it Apple Mecca, and selling alcohol in it. Of course some muslims will complain, they have a right to complain.
When artists in NYC took a crucifix and put it in a bottle of piss, christians complained, and it was their right. Whats the problem here?

magicmushroom
In a multicultural society there has to be a balance and fairness to all

And that fairness means that muslims are allowed to keep their culture, wear their clothes, openly disagree with the british government, and be critical of british culture. Jut like any other british person is allowed to do.
are now at a stage where there is no balance or fairness and this spells trouble for the future.

What exactly is going on that there is this supposed 'imbalance'?? If a person jumps up and says 'we've gotta stop these damned muslims, they should adopt the ways of hte rest of us and shouldnt' be allowed to protest in the streets' that person is wrong and peopel are right to say that they are, thats not being a so called 'pc fascist', or 'overly favouring muslims'.

[edit on 13-10-2006 by Nygdan]


reply posted on 13-10-2006 @ 07:39 PM by ewan
Its interesting that the tension that is going on in the world is reflected by the same attitudes on this board.

Being Scottish, and living in Glasgow, i have a unique perspective on inter-race and religious problems, and its nothing new. Athough its not as bad now, there was a time where drinking in the wrong bar, or supporting the "wrong" football team would end up in a trip to casualty.

This is from a part of the world where, generally people are pretty friendly. However, its always the small minded people that end up spoiling things.

I think theres alot of things changing in our understanding of the world, and the way in which we relate with each other is getting faster and more complex. We live in a time of instant communications, where if its not done this second tensions rise very quickly, and people do not like change.

I don't think its necessarly just the muslim issue thats the problem, but more to do with the way that people interact with each other on other levels, and we are seeing groups ganging up.

For example, Gay people in the UK were an underclass until civil partnerships were made legal etc, in the short space of time its now "normal", which a percentage of the population still find hard to accept.

This being said, there does seem to be a whole divide between certain elements of UK communities, and this is growning fast, hyped by an over-active media in the UK.

There is only so much negative influences that you can put on people (count the number of negative words, terror, fear that you hear on sky aka "the sun" news!) before people start feeling it.

The biggest problem with the UK, is we have a vast number of different cultures trying to live together in a very small space, with little time for understanding. At the same time, there are a minority who choose to live here and demand that the uk changes the rules to fit round them.

This is where government needs to step in, if clear boundaries are set for the "rules" of the land are set down, on certain issues they do need to make policys clear, however they seem more frightened of "saying the wrong thing".

Personally I think jack straw was totally right to ask for the removal of head scarfs, in the same way that i would expect to be arrested for wearing a crash-helmet in a post office.

But i totally agree, if there is going to be a flash point over these issues, it will be in the UK.... racial conflict is a big part of our history, don't even start me on Braveheart





reply posted on 14-10-2006 @ 05:47 AM by malganis
Originally posted by Nygdan
One of my friends sons was made to remove a crucifix necklace because it offended some of his middle-eastern classmates who were sitting there in there big turbans or whatever which they were allowed to keep wearing


Is this someting that you know happened or heard happened?
Who's fault is it if this kid removed the crucifix? THe teachers? The muslims? Or his? Its clearly his fault. There is no law in england that requires the removal of religious items. He was not required to remove the crucifix by the law, and shouldn't have. Its hardly the fault of the muslims that this kid was weak enough to do so. THey are within their rights to say 'i find that stupid cross offensive', and the kid is in his rights to say 'too bad'.


I heard about it the day after it happened from the kid's mother, and it's not the sort of thing they'd just make up so yes I believe it.

Obviously the law didn't say that he had to remove the item, but when the teacher tells you to and you have a load of muslims staring at you, you don't have much choice. And it's humiliating that they were allowed to sit there wearing their turbans like they had more rights or something.

If the kid would have said "ok, i'll complain about your religious items and see how you like it!", he would have just been branded racist wouldn't he.


And it also seems that they don't have to fit in with our religious statements but we have to fit in with theirs.


No, you don't. When the muslims say 'we don't have to worship jesus like these errant idolator british', they are absolutely right, they don't have to. And when a non-muslim says, 'i don't have to follow the silly and errant muslim religion', they are right, they don't have to.


The difference is, if we were to say 'i don't have to follow the silly and errant muslim religion', they would take offence and want to behead us or inflict 9/11 type attacks on us, a view which has been displayed in London riots.

Then there's issues like this
(ok it was in Germany, but it wouldn't be surprising to see it in UK). They didn't shut down the play because the law required them to but because they were scared of muslim reactions. Not Christians or Buddhists, who could take offence as well, but muslims

And obviously there's issues like the one that started this thread, where the soldiers house was vandalised, which we've already discussed.


When artists in NYC took a crucifix and put it in a bottle of piss, christians complained, and it was their right.

But the Christians didn't start getting violent and rioting with signs saying 'Behead anyone that insults Christianity' did they? Even though it's only a minority of muslims that take that kind of action, in people's minds they are representative of the whole muslim population. Not because we hate all muslims, but because we can never tell which ones are going to be extremists so we have to be wary of all of them.


quote: I mean i have heard muslims saying that England will become 'New Pakistan', i mean thats not exageration.


Why shouldn't they bring parts of their home culture with them? Miami in the US is like a 'new latin america', and its great because of that. Whats the problem with some parts of england being full of islamic culture?


Britain is a European country and I think that's how it should stay. I don't want to see the day where European countries are all sharing European culture except Britain because we will be 'New Pakistan' or 'New Iran'. And it might just be some parts of England now, but it's just going to spread until there are hardly any European Christians in Britain.


Respect for the long posts and holding your corner btw Nygdan.


reply posted on 14-10-2006 @ 06:27 AM by fred3110
nygdan you quoted someone saying

quote: I think a lot of British think the same but they are too scared to say anything because it would be racist.

this is what you said

"Perhaps they should recognize that it is racist, and that thats a good enough reason to not think that way"

so alot of british disagree with the governments policy on muslims because its inherently bias towards them, but if they talk out about it there branded as racist and a bigot

and in your latest response to me you said

" I never said that people who disagree with a policy that unfairly favours one race over another is a racist"

so do we have your blessing to carry on speaking out against this bias or are you gonna brand us all as racist your responses appear mixed


fred3110
where planet are you from!!?? [...]how dare you say that if the people of this country speak out against the injustices and discrimination this goverment endorses they deserve to be branded as racist, where in the uk are you from??

I am from a planet where people actually read and pay attention to someone's comments before making non sequitor responses. I never said that people who disagree with a policy that unfairly favours one race over another is a racist. If you want to have a conversation with people, you're going to have to pay attention to what they are saying, not react to imaginary fantasy.
Originally posted by Nygdan

you havent answered the main question i asked you though. i asked where in the uk are you from, its important to know because some of us have to see this on a daily basis where as others have the luxury of reading it on the news and in the papers, im guessing that your the news/paper type of person as you branded what i posted as imaginery fantasy, that shows you may think you know alot about this subject but you dont have an ounce of real life expirience in it so plz dont try and form opinions on something you dont seem to understand , you seem to think there is nothing wrong with a different culture coming here and pushing everything out of the way to make way for there belief and rules.

you keep jumping into history which is actually quite interesting
the saxons invaded and took over britain
the jutes raided britain for a while before deciding to invaded britain via the north sea in the 4thcentury
the danes raided and pillaged britain for a long time before some migrated during the danelaw period
now are you telling me that the indigenous popluation wasnt angry at this or do you think they were to afraid.

now lets call the muslims coming here illegally and legally the muslim invasion. the indigenous population IS angry at this but the government which doesnt seem to represent the majority of britons is bending over backwards to accommodate them with political correctness, housing and benefits, everyone who disagrees with this have the fear of being branded as a racist which affects there livelihoods.
the past appears to be repeating its self here but are the population gonna act like there predecessor and not fight for it, regardless or not of what people say if they do nothing then britain will become and islamic state, this is what they have said the want


reply posted on 14-10-2006 @ 05:54 PM by Nygdan
Originally posted by malganis
I heard about it the day after it happened from the kid's mother, and it's not the sort of thing they'd just make up so yes I believe it.

Sounds good. Sometimes you hear these stories and you have to wonder, how directly witnessed was it.

Obviously the law didn't say that he had to remove the item, but when the teacher tells you to and you have a load of muslims staring at you, you don't have much choice.

Of course you do, and that kid should've stood up for them.

If the kid would have said "ok, i'll complain about your religious items and see how you like it!", he would have just been branded racist wouldn't he.

Who the heck would say he was a racist? If anyone did, they'd be an idiot.
The difference is, if we were to say 'i don't have to follow the silly and errant muslim religion', they would take offence and want to behead us or inflict 9/11 type attacks on us, a view which has been displayed in London riots.

Well then arrest them when they are calling for mass murder.

Then there's issues like this

More foolishness on the part of the opera operators, but why shouldn't muslims call something that they find offensive, offensive? Its their right.
In one scene it was to show the severed heads of the Prophet Muhammad, Jesus Christ and Buddha.

Its not unreasonable for a person to be insulted or take offense over this. Yes, the christians didn't call for the production to be shut down, but even they do that sometimes.

And obviously there's issues like the one that started this thread, where the soldiers house was vandalised, which we've already discussed.

I'm talking about instances where the law some how forces britishers to accept muslim practices and gives them special protection. Every keeps saying that the law is favouring the muslims or that its 'unfair that we have to accept their religion and practices'. Where is anyone saying that you actually have to?

But the Christians didn't start getting violent and rioting with signs saying 'Behead anyone that insults Christianity' did they?

No. I am not saying that anyone should be allowed to call for mass murder. I am saying that if something insults the muslims, they have a right to demonstrate against it and even try to get it shut down, just like the christians did in the artshow exhibit.
Even though it's only a minority of muslims that take that kind of action, in people's minds they are representative of the whole muslim population.

I agree, the violent vocal idiots are what people notice, all the more reason to eliminate the violent idiots.
Britain is a European country and I think that's how it should stay.

In your opinion, sure, but thats only your opinion. They are entitled to bring theirs along. In NYC, for example, there is a "little italy' and a 'chinatown'. People love it. If those cultures were suppressed and expected to act like wasps, it'd suck. Peopel are free to practice whatever culture they want.
And it might just be some parts of England now, but it's just going to spread until there are hardly any European Christians in Britain.

How? Are you going to start living like a pakistani? Are any other non-pakistanis going to? Are any indian non-muslims living in britian going to? Any pakistanis that think that england is going to become a 'new pakistan' are kidding themselves or delusional.
holding your corner

Thanks, same to you, nothing like a lively discussion eh!


reply posted on 14-10-2006 @ 07:18 PM by osram
Are you talking about the German Opera production?

If yes, you are utterly wrong.
Because the Production was abandoned due to Police Warnings towards the Leader of that Opera. Afterwards there have been critics.. It was not such a good idea to cancel this theatre piece. (A warning for no obvious reason other than the usual terrorism fear-mongering. And even if there was a reason for such a warning. It is so easy to construct an artificial reason.)

So in fact, it's once again.. the government police-state which creates an artificial scenario of "fear" and controversial religious discussions.

I really hope there are more people who STOP THINKING IN TINY LITTLE BOXES, instead of always letting themselves be distracted by some useless and obsolete topics.

If you complain about muslims who "protest" then i dont understand it.. at least they do something. On the other hand islam often seems very intolerant.. but hey, as i said it's only obsolete topics.. this type of discussion. I mean look at the people who rule this world, and decide what political decisions should be taken.

Are they tolerant towards the citizens of their own country? Are they tolerant towards the people around this globe? Or are they even tolerant regarding Earth? Do they let the earth and all of the life carried by itself.. live?

A clear answer: No. Certainly not...

So look at Switzerland.. the people start complaining at a ratio of 20% strangers. In Italy people got annoyed @ about 5%..

Okay, so what? The differences between UK, USA, Italy, Switzerland etc. are minimal. The problem is not strangers, or how many of them. The problem is government deliberately taking wrong decisions in favor of lobbyists.

If everyone would get an education and job easily.. I guarantee you: Not a single person would care about the amount of strangers. Even @ a total of 49%.

So the tax-paying, dumb.. working citizen is busy with a whole set of problems.
Instead of questioning the true cause for all of this: Abused Democracy, and fake governments.

Think about it.

Do you beliebe in "Reality"?
Pages: <<  4    5    6    7  >>    ^^TOP^^