Chemtrails brainstorm.

Fine, I give up.

I came to this thread to look at why Chemtrails are real. Allot of so called 'evidence' in this thread is incorrect, giving me the impression that Chemtrails are fake.

Now I get told:

To go away for correcting them?

To go away for asking for real evidence?

To have a look at a two year old debate?

To prove that Chemtrails are fake? The real question is are Chemtrails real?

Then I get told I'm getting brainwashed for producing evidence. I havn't even bothered to read the last 4 pages, as page 1-10 was all the same...

Bye.

[edit on 11-10-2006 by PisTonZOR]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
This is why I was so disappointed when Sceptic Overlord came and and gave the green light to trash this thread.

I think you need to re-read my posts.

Collaborative debate is never one-sided.

ATS is dedicated to collaboration and discussion from all vantage points.

I did provide a recommendation to begin anew within an ATS forum that encourages more pure speculation and discourages knee-jerk debunking. However, the recommendation seems not to have been followed.

While do well refuting my pics by showing similar photos of aircraft, you seem to be ignoring every other point I made. This is what is called "cherry-picking" and it is a tactic used to ill effect for both skeptics and believers.

I also submitted U.S. code regarding human experimentation, the plane that appears as just two orbs spraying a heavy cloud, two sites with extensive documentation if YOU decide you would like to take your own advise and vet information from OUR assertions, as well as two photoraphs of chemtrails simply cutting off, then starting again. Remember those?

You may be scrambling to retrieve (or doctor) photos/evidence to refute that. I would say that's great! The more energy put into this subject the better - from both sides. That's all we're asking. But be careful, and be honest with yourself - are you just arguing to argue, or do you have a sincere interest in debunking this? Because it looks like you are repeating pat answer, ignoring certain assertions and engaging in personal attacks.

For selfless and others who know this is a real phenomenon, I would like to add that our research as civilians can continue on this subject. I'm including more links below. People are seeing weblike, fibrous material from the U.S. to Africa. We need to bring more attention to this. And selfless mentioned that some are finding a connection to the increasing cases of Morgellon's Disease. Instead of wasting breath and time sharing plane photos, it's time to move on with this.

People have had success seeing barium and other odd properties in this weblike material under a black light. Remember that. People are also sending samples to police labs and university labs of this material and finding very odd characteristics, such as the fibers move on their own as if alive. The fibers move toward living tissue, and seem repelled by metallic instruments.

Also, I will include a link of a device that someone has created that he claims (and has photos showing) clears the chemtrails in the skies above it. There's a possible stopper right there (on a personal note, when you see citizens making devices you start to get the "mad scientist" response, so it's up to individuals to decide. Because scientists are ignoring this, we really don't have a choice but to initiate research and suggest protection on our own).

Fibrous material captured in jar

See fibers with black light and microscope

Another black light experience

Report of weblike material in Illinois

More chemtrail fiber photos - they look just like Morgellon's
fibers

Message board thread:sending fibers for lab analysis - where to send these things

Device created to clear chemtrails from the sky

Report of chemtrail fallout, drought and loss of livestock

These fibers have been shown to reduce the immune system so that a broad chemical or biological attack could spread quickly, necessitating martial law. If the effects of this spraying is to reduce the immune system of a large segment of Earth's population, then we're in trouble. At the very least the spraying is affecting weather (drought), people and animals in a negative way.

Las Vegas Tribune
Another good site with great testimony
Another good site

Keep going...

[edit on 11-10-2006 by OnTheDeck]

I think the Chemtrail believers need to move away from contrails .....

Whatever claims you make, 99.9% of pictures of alleged chemtrails appear to those who know about aeronautics and meteorology to be normal contrails. And besides, other than because they form under the same conditions that persistent contrails form, why should chemtrails be visible?

However, this does not mean that some form of chemical spraying does not take place in some areas. This is where, I think, you should concentrate your efforts.

Contrails are not evidence. Nor is cirrostratus. Nor is irridescence in clouds. And nor are rainbows. By constantly raising such well known, well documented, and totally normal, common, phenomena, you simple discredit yourselves.

However, as OnTheDeck points out, there may be real evidence which does not have better, more convincing, mundane explanations.

No airliners sprayed chemtrails on me from 30,000ft yesterday. Although persistent contrails did again form at times. But that doesn't mean that somewhere or other the US Govt is not indeed carrying out some sort of chemical spraying experiements.

But you'll never convince the world of that by photographing pretty skyscapes .....

Cherry picking has, unfortunately, been the main tactic of pro-Chemtrail fellows out there, whilst failing, until the fifteenth page of this thread, to provide any scientific evidence as to their own claims-- Meanwhile, minstranslating and twisting the words of myself, 'Zor, AffirmativeAction, and the adminsitrator-- SkepticOverlord, Howard, and Es'.

If you wonder why the 'attack' seems to have shifted forces, it is because, largely, as said this thread is dead. You have been discredited almost every page, your claims turned out false, and often two or three pages later, you'll ask a question, or refute an argument that was all-ready answered.

It was never a matter of win or lose-- Skeptics will very rarely agree with those of us who can apply our minds to things, and find the reality of the subject. However, through the consistent bickering, name-calling, insulting, manipulation-of-words, then daring to pin the same crimes on the opposite party, you have in-effect destroyed your own thread.

Further more, as to your first set of 'scientific links'?

Orgone generators have the ability to focus life-positive orgone energy and break up areas of noxious, life-draining energies of DOR"

Life-positive.. life-draining... Ah, I love Dungeons and Dragons marketing.



[edit on 11-10-2006 by Iblis]

Originally posted by Iblis

Life-positive.. life-draining... Ah, I love Dungeons and Dragons marketing.

[edit on 11-10-2006 by Iblis]

Damnit, I was drinking coffee when I read that.
You owe me amonitor clean up.

Originally posted by Iblis

It was never a matter of win or lose-- Skeptics will very rarely agree with those of us who can apply our minds to things, and find the reality of the subject. However, through the consistent bickering, name-calling, insulting, manipulation-of-words, then daring to pin the same crimes on the opposite party, you have in-effect destroyed your own thread.

[edit on 11-10-2006 by Iblis]

Im sorry Iblis but it is you who destroyed this thread along with your other debunker fanatics.

I clearly stated the intentions of the thread was a brain storm to gather ideas on how to stop chemtrails or how to inform more people about it.

I also stated that if you use the search button there are many threads on ats that is about proving or disproving the phenomena of chemtrails.

The fact that you came here anyways to insult us and to divert the attention of the brainstorm into a bickering argument that i wanted no part of, proves to me that your intentions were nothing else but to ruin this thread.

You still don't understand after i said it like 20 times that this was a brainstorm for ideas. You are too wrapped up into causing arguments to realise this.

Now iblis, further evidence that your only intentions is to argue and ruin this thread is that you didn't even post on howard's thread. He started a thread about chemtrails science. Now what does that say about you? You continiue to post on here to cause debates while there is a thread created that supports your ideas 100% but yet you didn't even post on it. So why don't you go there insted of coming here? Because you only want to argue that's why. Well incase you didn't see the thread here is the link,

www.abovetopsecret.com...


I give my coutersy to those who took into account that this was a brainstorm and understood the concept of it.

To those who did not come on here to have senseless arguing and actually wanted to help this cause (you know who you are).

Also i would like to point out that the only post of pistonzor on the chemtrails science thread he asks me to come on there and prove to him that chemtrails are real therefor trying to provok yet another argument.

What does that say about him??

This thread was not posted, according to selfless, as a debate. However, a link was provided in this thread to a debate held on ATS in which the pro-chemtrail debator received the majority vote by the ATS mods for presenting the best argument. Period.

Links abound on this and other threads to information and documents proving government "chemtrail" and other spraying projects, information and specimen research regarding chemtrail fallout, dedicated organizations, credible witnesses, national and local news media reports, and a still growing, years' long and far-reaching investigative body has been weeded through the ATS threads that deal with this subject. Yet despite moderator opinion, prevailing logic, and tangible proof you are still maintaining a position that is anti-chemtrail to the utter disbelief to all who are following this phenomenon.

That is your prerogative. I understand that we're all skeptics, and that belief systems determine to what degree. Truly. People who see and know something is wrong, and people who choose not to believe are seeing things according to their own belief systems with regard to aircraft and contrail/chemtrail photos (I don't know how that happens with the photos I just submitted of two seperate chemtrails being cleanly broken, but it just proves how powerful our belief systems are). But when you dig a little further, the evidence and information paints a picture that is not debatable and is not susceptible to multiple translations. This is why I have been providing links to information.

I cannot debate this issue, nor can anyone else in these threads to your satisfaction. Any thorough, penetrating, broad and powerful presentation cannot happen in a matter of some message board threads. All we want to do as people witnessing something we can't understand is point it out and make that information available. We do not have an agenda, save for getting information out we believe will better serve our community. We are sincere and well-intentioned. That's all. We are also voicing concern to an issue we feel is being dismissed by our government and health organizations, and we are not accepting of that response. And the more we are met with this stonewalling, the harder we push.

I think you're right, Essan. The time of looking at photos of planes and contrails/chemtrails is over. We're spinning our wheels with regard to still photographs. There is enough convincing photographic evidence and it's time to move on. People can make up their own minds. Iblis, you can use the term cherry picking with regard to the pro-chemtrail posters, but it is misapplied. We're not selective in what we show, or respond to. We understand weather phenomena exists. Our own eyes and the facts convince us. I don't understand where your assertion applies.

Nothing we have presented has been discredited. No one against this phenomena has discredited anything, but merely stated a contradictory position. Howard has presented a couple of photos refuting the close call photo I presented, and a possible explanation of streams coming from a plane in another photo, but by doing that he has in no way undermined or disproved a phenomena that is happening, but has simply pointed out that a photograph is open to multiple translations (except for the trails that just cut off).

We are not scientists. We're just civilians. And our purpose here has not been to scientifically prove the existence of a phenomena which has already been validated (don't ask me to prove it. follow the links). Our hope is to point to the sky and evidence and urge people to follow it and make up their own minds. Oddly enough, people have come here prompted by their own questions, and not because our assertions had to convince them.

It's only a matter of time that more of this comes to light. We will continue to promulgate links and access to information not to prove, but to bring information to light. That's all. Everyone can decide for themselves.

[edit on 11-10-2006 by OnTheDeck]

selfless, instead of complaining about people questioning your basic premise that chemtrails are real, why don’t you just go ahead with your ‘brainstorm.”

I do have one question for you, however:

Before you can stop something, don’t you have to know what it is?

I took some pics today of these chemtrails in my sky, it was not prety.

They turned a beautifull blue sky with no clouds in the sky to a big mess of weird looking particles and now it's gonna rain very soon.

The weather literally went from no clouds to rain clouds in a few hours and i saw it all happen before me.









And then all that turned into this weird thick layer.







I took more pics but these 3 here tells the story of what went on...


Now this just don't look right to me.


It's gonna rain very soon and im not gonna go outside, i don't want that stuff to rain on me.


I think this has to stop...

About me not 'getting' the subject of your thread; I refer, for the second.. perhaps third time, to SkepticOverlord's response.

As for not moving onto his thread? Why should I do? Then my attention is split between multiple places.

Originally posted by OnTheDeck
Iblis, you can use the term cherry picking with regard to the pro-chemtrail posters, but it is misapplied. We're not selective in what we show, or respond to. We understand weather phenomena exists. Our own eyes and the facts convince us. I don't understand where your assertion applies.

Unfortunately, the opposite is true. This is why until page thirteen, or perhaps fourteen, there was never a true discussion. Just revolt, and general insults from the Pro-Party.
As for the latter commentary, that is why this debate exists in the first place. By asserting it exists, and saying you've seen it, and there are hard-facts, you imply it is real, and by that, you make it an open topic.

Think of it as the equivilant of moving into a 'Religion' forum, and starting a thread with, 'Look, we all know the Christian God exists..'.
While I'll admit readily the analogy between science and a religious being are is rather.. crude.. it is an apt one, and hopefully will be used to see why we have reacted in this way.

Howard, you can take one look at selfless' pics and tell why selfless is concerned. That is not some neat weather phenomena. Those pictures are very concerning. If those were simply condensated air they should have dissipated.

This is irrefutable. I can't imagine how someone can look up to the sky, see that oily, hazy, rainbow-colored mist and think that is a natural phenomena. Just looking at that gives one pause. How can something obviously chemical in nature, and covering the whole sky not arouse an ounce of suspicion from a single health organization? I bet if it has, then they are meeting the same resistance the average person is when asking about these trails.

Selfless, I feel for you. That is disgusting, and is definitely pouring down onto you. Those planes are clearly spraying some kind of chemical aerosol over your head, and it IS dumping onto you and the ground. Undeniable.

If Howard and others want to look at those photos and still believe that these are just air condensation, it will be very sad. It's clear that true condensation appears whitish, exists for a couple of seconds or moments until it warms, then vanishes.

These streams are dripping, and spreading a rainbow-colored sheen that is spreading across the sky, and from consecutive shots, clearly covering the entire sky. Since when did contrails cover an entire sky until nothing left was seen?!

Selfless proved his/her own case as far as I'm concerned. I feel sick looking at those photos. And anyone who sees that as clean, condensation and would enjoy breathing that in, your belief system has you trapped in denial. We aren't going to stand by and let this happen.

Good for you, selfless. You should send those photos somewhere as proof that you are fed up with spraying, and won't tolerate a dismissive response. Anyone with eyes can see something is wrong there!


[edit on 11-10-2006 by OnTheDeck]

Originally posted by Iblis

As for not moving onto his thread? Why should I do? Then my attention is split between multiple places.

Yeah why should you? because it would stop some pointless arguing on this thread.

Originally posted by Iblis

I refer to the second...perhaps third time, to Skeptic Overlord's response.....

Iblis, are you hiding behind the teacher's skirt? Stop quoting SO's response, he didn't really say all that much except that all subjects are open for debate. Fact is this isn't a debate, it is several concerned citizens trying to make sense of possible phenomena without scientific documentation to present for making a case. At the same time several members are making a joke out of the fact that the thread is considered "brainstorming" instead of fact sharing.

You mentioned that Selfless ruined his own thread. Well all in all I think the thread has been quite effective. It has shown several of you to have an agenda, therefore IMO your credibiltiy is ziltch, not only in this thread, but when you post in the future, and at the same time, nearly 300 replies later there have been many links provided where those of us who choose to can pursue the subject. Actually you "debaters" have kept life breathing in this thread by motivating some of us to work harder to find others on the web who are interested in this subject.

Thanks for all your time, as you have increased my desire to learn more

Whoever is responsible for this spraying worldwide has not only put large populations at risk from their reckless and unchecked spraying, but they are also playing with nature and risking the delicate ecological balance as an experiment. Guess what happens when that experiment fails? The civilian population suffers. And if the damage is extreme enough, that suffering could turn into death for countless numbers.

I am going to mention some possibilities that are being associated with chemtrails, but in no way have proof of these assertions. I am only aware that others have information that has convinced them of the possibility.

First, planes are spraying chemical above our heads, and above the heads of those in other countries. Second, the government and health institutions are lying about the project, denying it, or are responding with silence. Period. Third, the disturbing fact of this lack of response to our inquiries means that we won't like the real answer. If this was for our benefit, either to shield us from the sun, or to create moisture in the atmosphere, then it would presented as such, and would not involve the impenetrable silence and secrecy it does now.

If this were an experiment, it would be held over a small, unpopulated area, without risk to public health, and would follow legal restrictions with regard to testing with human subjects - not the least of which is notifying the test subjects.

The fact that this has moved from said isolated area to cover the entire planet means a couple of things. One, the experiment is done. But we don't get the benefit of knowing what it was, or why it is now being sprayed over our heads. Two, if you have children, family, friends or loved ones that are susceptible, or sensitive to particulate matter, chemicals, or other aerosol particulates that exist in these hazy clouds guess what? Yeah, I didn't have to tell you. If they get sick, that is an unfortunate side effect. Our government's apologies.

Humans and animals alike seem to be affected by this spraying. Horses have been found to have their reproductive capabilities affected (i.e., they are not producing offspring). People have reported sickness after heavy spraying, as well as with their children. Even if this were a matter of national security, or this was some sort of atmospheric protection, the risk to ourselves and our children, the health problems that seem to already be manifesting, and the bizarre atmospheric effects proves that this is dangerous.

That said, I wanted to include some theories regarding these chemtrails. One, it is being suggested that there are elements in the fallout that weakens, or attacks our immune system, making us susceptible to illnesses, in particular, viruses. If there were a pandemic of any kind, you can bet you'll be infected quickly, and badly, and be rounded up. This means a national emergency, and you could end up in a FEMA or military detainment facility with your family - for your and everyone's protection. That's one theory.

Another is that these metals and chemicals are seeding the atmosphere to be used in conjunction with the HAARP antennas to allow the owners to not only manipulate the atmosphere, but also to create hurricanes, tsunamis and earthquakes. If you want another national emergency there's one. You can see photos of rippling in clouds, strange holes in clouds, and other strange atmospheric phenomena and imagine that this stuff is in use. Again, up to the investigator.

I can include links later. It's reported that there are underground cities - and I admit this is speculation - that exist that people involved in these surface experiments can retreat to should things become dire. There are government underground facilities. There's a big secret one out near Chantilly, VA, so it wouldn't be a surprise if there were others. There are around 7-15 levels below Wash./Dulles International Airport (just for air traffic?). Feel free to investigage those on your own.

The point here is that something is going on. It's past the experimental stage, and is operating without regard to any detrimental effects to the unwitting people below it. This really is a big f**k you to the people under these streams. And it's not right...

There's so much information out there that it would take days to scratch the surface...I'm sure I've missed a lot, but it's a starting point..

OntheDeck, you have done your homework.
I feel a sense of bonding with some of my fellow ATS'rs after we have fought our way through this thread. I appreciate the U2U, also.

If you find a place to join up for the cause I would be willing to invest time in the cause. The potential (although speculative) link to Morgellens scares the bezebez out of me!

www.chembuster.us... check this out ..... might be your answer

I've followed this thread with great interest - not because I'm particularly interested in the truth/otherwise of chemtrails, but because of the venom involved on both sides!

I think the problem with Selfless' initial 'brainstorming' call is that how can you get a fair, unbiased position without involving skeptics?

Thesis - Antithesis - Synthesis and all that.

You guys want to start using the methods of sinister multinationals and excluding personalities from the issue if you want to get somewhere

Rand

Still....fascinating stuff, keep up the good work!

TD


[edit on 11-10-2006 by TaupeDragon]

Originally posted by OnTheDeck
Howard, you can take one look at selfless' pics and tell why selfless is concerned.

See the other thread for an explantion of this.