The Deity Of Christ Conspiracy

This is madness. But it sure aint new madness.
Come on guys, if the Bible is the LITERAL word of the lord then surley its meaning and interpreatation would be crytal clear and indisputable.

If the bible is a divinely inspired work then how come it is so easily subject to so much conjecture and disagreement, e.g. the divinity of christ, the nature of the trinity, eating pork etc.?
This thread (and 2000 years of christian history) has just demonstrated this. Seriously, the notion that god wrote an autobiography is ridiculous. Responding to deep, theological questions like these with quotes from dusty scripture is quite frankly pissing into the wind. It only serves to highten confusion.

What kind of all omnipotent, all loving God would play a sick lottery with his children and their salvation? Christians claim the bible hold the key to salvation. If that is true then God, in his wisdom, would make sure his children knew how to interpret it, lest they draw wrong conclusions about it and end up in, well, hell.

The Lord sounds little apathetic to me in this case

TheSilentProtagonist-

( I would have quoted your entire post but to save space I did not)

I just ask you this question. Why couldnt an all powerfull omnipitnet omnicient etc... God do thoes things? Why couldnt that God insipre scripture? What makes you so sure you can read the mind of God and tell what God did or didnt do? Howmany times have you analyzed YOUR life and been wrong about the future, you proablly are in a position you never thought you would be in today 10 years ago.

Secondly, you state what kid of loving God would do Etc.... to his people. You fail to understnand the ultimate joy that will come from serving God and doing Gods will. You man never realize it in life but when God's Infinite capablities and love is revealed to you no suffereing you endured on Earth and in life will compare to the joy you have received to doign God's will.

You think in the mind of man and God is not a man nor is the the spirutal world one of matter.

Originally posted by Terral

a host of credible witnesses who all agree that Jesus Christ is the “Son of God.”

You forgot one,
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

There is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. All the same God in 3 distinct aspects.

Terral

I think you have some good ideas, but for the life of me I can't seem to follow your threads. Good subjects, but the way the presentation is made has left me in the dust. If you would like for more people to participate I would suggest that you lay things out more clearly. You are throwing too many ideas in too close together or something. Usually I love these debates, but I just can't comprehend the message.

This is just my opinion, for what it is worth.

Mizar,

sorry, bit wordy a response, u might wanna grab a coffe or sumthing.

Its not so much why he couldnt do these things, but why WOULD he? Why, if he had a genuine desire to save his children from damnation, would he go down the convoluted route of inscribing the key to salvation in a book? a book written by not one, but many different people. A book written in a vague, wooly, incoherent and inarticulate fashion, in a way the often repeats itself, and that is generally unclear about its message!?

why would god communicate to his children in this ham-fisted manner?

why not communicate directly with them? there have been untold numbers of mystic traditions in many different religions, including christianity, that stressed that the divine is something that can be experienced directly. The Christian church has spent a good few centuries opposing this idea, stating that God has only revealed himself through scripture.

But surley this cant be the case? If the bibles message was indisputable, You and i would not need to be having this discussion would we?!

This is our salvation were dealing with here. If The bible WAS the key to such a hugley important question, then it would be beyond doubt. I would like to think that God is merciful enough to make the route clear to us, wether or not we decide to take it.
If God is omnipotent, he has no need to commnictae with us through the falliable hand of man.
If God i Loves us, he would not leaves us stricken here in this world with nothing but flimsy faith to cling on to.

Me? Read the mind of God? If anything friend, it is you who try do so.

You try and bring god down to your level by putting him in a doctrinal box; "he is a trinity/he inspired the bible/the bible is his word/he only had one son/ etc" Who are you to say what god did or didnt do, what he is or what he isnt.
I dont claim to know anything about god. i cant, im just a man, and as you said thats the only way i can think.
If i cant read scripture with a logical, rational mind, and i cant try and experience god for myself, what other option do i have? You are restricted by human thought as much as i am.





[edit on 8-10-2006 by TheSilentProtagonist]

Silent Protagonist-
On the first part of your post I just ask again Why not?

Originally posted by TheSilentProtagonist


Me? Read the mind of God? If anything friend, it is you who try do so.

You try and bring god down to your level by putting him in a doctrinal box; "he is a trinity/he inspired the bible/the bible is his word/he only had one son/ etc" Who are you to say what god did or didnt do, what he is or what he isnt.
I dont claim to know anything about god. i cant, im just a man, and as you said thats the only way i can think.
If i cant read scripture with a logical, rational mind, and i cant try and experience god for myself, what other option do i have? You are restricted by human thought as much as i am.





[edit on 8-10-2006 by TheSilentProtagonist]

I aggree entirely, the fault is also mine.
I believe the Pope sumed up this in a perfect phrase in a talk he gave to Theologians on October 6th

Recalling an experience of St. Thomas Aquinas (1221-1274), the Holy Father explained: "In theology, God is not the object of our speech. This is our normal conception. In reality, God is not the object; God is the subject of theology."

Room for God

"He who speaks in theology should be God himself," said the Pope. "And our speaking and thinking should only serve to have him heard, so that the world of God can find room in the world."

Terral mate, I hardly understood your reply. You have a physical body no? jesus had a physical body no? He had a physical birth, Mary's egg was fertilised no or she was implanted artificially with another egg? Jesus was a mortal man no? She had no memory of how she got pregnant. You seem to think in terms of the spirit realm and forget that things had to physically take place as well mate. BTW scientists could do a virgin birth today, just artificial insemination on a virgin right?( just wanted to throw that out there)

Originally posted by interestedalways
but for the life of me I can't seem to follow your threads.

I agree with you.


10 easily said words on a subject are far more informative than 1000 words that ramble on and on in confusion.

You know, while interesting, I often find such discussions often detract from the points that God was trying to convey.

I have never seen the Trinity broken down to a point that its forms are under such scrutiny. For the most part, how one views the different forms of God through the Trininty is not all important as one gets the basic jist. God has 3 forms, that can exist at the same time. A simple (but wierd) way to think of this would be like imagining someone with 3 personalities that were entirely consistant but used for different situations.

The important part is John 14:6 Jesus answered "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. no one comes to the Father, but through Me".

I while the specifics are interesting and important, they are also semantics.

Like evolution vs creation. Believers and non Believers get all wrapped up in that argument, and in the end it really doesn't matter. Maybe God created the world in 7 litteral days, as the Word says. Or maybe this is an allagorical story and it was a process of evolution that was started by God. Either way it doesn't change who God is. It makes for interesting discussion, but the important thing is who are you going to chose the World, or God.

As far as the Bible, it isn't contradictory or filled with untruths. In fact consider these points from www.whoheis.info

2. How can I be sure the Bible is really the Word of God?


A number of facts make it reasonable to believe the Bible is accurate and reliable. Jesus, the Son of God and the greatest spiritual authority of all time, attested to the accuracy of the Bible, even to the "smallest letter or stroke."(Matthew 5:18) Archaeology has affirmed its historical accuracy. Biblical manuscripts number in the many thousands and, in some cases, date less than 30 years from the actual occurrence of the events that they describe – giving us by far the best attested historical document civilization possesses.

The Bible’s amazing unity – even though composed of 66 books written over a period of 1,500 years by more than 40 authors from widely different cultures and parts of the world – attests that there was divine superintendence over its writing. The Bible not only claims to be the Word of God, (2 Timothy 3:16) but through the minute fulfillment of prophecy and the miraculous transformation of individuals (even skeptics) who have believed its message, it has proved itself over and over to be exactly that.

The bottom line is whether you will choose to believe the Bible is God’s Word or not. Moreover, if you choose to believe, will you obey what it tells you to do? True ‘saving faith’ is shown by a growing desire to please God out of love. Jesus stated, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me …"(John 14:21a) A true believer will demonstrate love towards God as he chooses (with God’s help) to bring increasing numbers of areas of his life into obedience with what the Bible teaches.

Got a second point but I'll need another post.......

2nd Point

www.greatcom.org...

A question which is raised occasionally is, "Since the New Testament was written so long after Christ’s death, how can anyone trust the Gospel accounts of His life?" The fact of the matter is that eyewitnesses or people who recorded firsthand testimony wrote the Gospels.

Again from www.whoheis.info

Hopefully these two points will give some of your the gumption to at least think about the Bible rather then dismiss it, based on what some one who was wronged by a church or Christian, or just doesn't like the message says. Any percieved incorrectness, contradiction, or misinterpritation is by man, not God.

people have spent their lives (or at least there Doctorates
) studying and essentially proving the accuracy and legitamacy of the Bible.

You may not like it, or want to hear it, but it is the Truth. The reason people try to disclaim it, vilify it or other wise discard it is if it isn't true, you don't have to worry. If' it's true, then you have to take actuion that does determine your eternity...and people generally don't like to be told what to do. Problem is, God's not saying, "let's make a deal", but rather, "This IS the deal". Luckily it's rather simple, believe in Christ, and He will take care of the rest.

[edited to use 'ex' tags and provide alternate working citation, -nygdan]

[edit on 9-10-2006 by Nygdan]

Really did he really say that or was it written that he said that. Can you prove to me that Jesus said those words? And no contradictions eh? Did Judas hang himself or did he trip in a field and burst his stomach spilling his intestines? which one was it? both are in the book with no contradictions.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by Terral
How are you using this verse?

Jesus is God. That's what the verse means.

In the bible it clearly states that Jesus prayed to his FATHER. Now, unless you are going to be ridiculous and say that Jesus was his own Father, I suggest you back away from the whole Jesus is God argument.

Ok, ONE MORE POINT I'll leave it at that and go look at the alien posts

Also from www.whoheis.info

www.greatcom.org...

It is truly amazing how often this question is asked. It contains the assumption that the Bible is filled with many obvious discrepancies – which, if true, would make it impossible for someone to believe that the Bible has a divine origin.

[edited to cut down size of quoted portion, provide working link to material, and use 'ex' tags to quote -nygdan]

[edit on 9-10-2006 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by Elijio
Really did he really say that or was it written that he said that. Can you prove to me that Jesus said those words? And no contradictions eh? Did Judas hang himself or did he trip in a field and burst his stomach spilling his intestines? which one was it? both are in the book with no contradictions.

OMG is this not a contradiction?! one book says he hung himself and another says he tripped in a field bursting his abdomen spilling his intestines! Mate can you see with your own two eyes or are your eyes given to you by that website?

Originally posted by Elijio
Really did he really say that or was it written that he said that. Can you prove to me that Jesus said those words? And no contradictions eh? Did Judas hang himself or did he trip in a field and burst his stomach spilling his intestines? which one was it? both are in the book with no contradictions.

Ok, couple of questions.

Could you please "prove" to me, that Plato said anything that is attributed to him?

Or how about Shakespear. "Prove" his plays were his words. How about any of Homer?

Newsflash, there are more original ancient manuscripts of the Bible, then any of those, yet people take them at face value, but not the Bible.

But my other question is, please tell me (book chapter and verse) where it says Judas tripped in a field and eviscerated himself. I just scanned through the sections of all 4 gospels and the beginning of Acts and didn't find anything about this. Nor can I find mention of it in a Biblical concordence. I have never heard this before. I also asked my wife, who has a Christian school education which required many Bible courses, and she couldn't recall that being said. I am not saying it isn't in there, as I don't have the Bible memorized, but don't recall that anywhere. So tell me where this is.

If it is, ok, that's a contradiction on how he died, but not that he died. It doesn't change anything the Bible says about who Jesus is, and what he did. Also, Judas was a common name during Biblical times (which span thousands of years) are you perhaps refering to two different Judas's??????

Originally posted by Elijio

Originally posted by Elijio
Really did he really say that or was it written that he said that. Can you prove to me that Jesus said those words? And no contradictions eh? Did Judas hang himself or did he trip in a field and burst his stomach spilling his intestines? which one was it? both are in the book with no contradictions.

OMG is this not a contradiction?! one book says he hung himself and another says he tripped in a field bursting his abdomen spilling his intestines! Mate can you see with your own two eyes or are your eyes given to you by that website?

No my eyes are not from the website. In fact I only found that today on a link from a bible study cd-rom I am reading. Copying and Pasting that was quicker and more eloquent then me typing it!

I am still waitng for you to tell me the Judas eviseration story?

I would not make such an error on my quest for the truth mate
here you go:

According to Acts (Luke)
[Peter stood up among the believers and said concerning Judas] [1:15-16] "He was one of our number and shared in this ministry." [1:17] (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. [1:18] Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) [1:19]

and

According to Matthew
When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. [27:3]
"I've sinned," he said, "for I've betrayed innocent blood."
"What's that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." [27:4]
So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. [27:5]
The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It's against the law to put this into the treasury, since it's blood money." [27:6] So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. [27:7] That's why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. [27:8]

So jesus is a liar then mate? BTW i wish not to upset your beliefs you seem happy with them and I am happy that you are happy

BtW if you read the bible like the bible you will see nothing but if you read it like a textbook you go" oh wait a minute why would a perfect god tell people to kill..." etc and you see things clearly. BTW the two versions are taken from the New International Version (NIV) of the Bible. The word of God is edited so much these days. perhaps you have a different version?

Originally posted by Elijio
I would not make such an error on my quest for the truth mate
here you go:

According to Acts (Luke)
[Peter stood up among the believers and said concerning Judas] [1:15-16] "He was one of our number and shared in this ministry." [1:17] (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. [1:18] Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) [1:19]

and

According to Matthew
When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. [27:3]
"I've sinned," he said, "for I've betrayed innocent blood."
"What's that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." [27:4]
So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. [27:5]
The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It's against the law to put this into the treasury, since it's blood money." [27:6] So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. [27:7] That's why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. [27:8]

So jesus is a liar then mate? BTW i wish not to upset your beliefs you seem happy with them and I am happy that you are happy

Ok, read it (I did recall that after you pointed it out, but I have never deconstructed and study ACTS, so it didn't come immediately to mind).

1st, Jesus isn't a liar, because as you yourself pointed out, Matthew and Luke wrote/said these things.

2nd, while this seems a contradiction I would say it is a difference, and not necessarily a contradiction (even if it is, its' about a trival point, not a main event).
I have never taken Greek or Aramaic, but since portions of the English translation don't always convey the exact meaning as the original languages, it could explain the possible contradiction.

I think there are also two other possiblities.

1. In John 13:27, you must remember that Judas is actually possessed by Satan. So while this is only conjecture, it is possible that he hung himself while possessed, but it didn't actually kill him, and he later died on his property.

2. More likely then that, perhaps he hung himself on his property, failed, or fell out of the noose (or was cut down) and, like any corpse that has been bloated in the sun, split upon falling down spilling his guts.

Fomally, while Peter makes it pretty clear we are refering to THE Judas. There is another Judas in Acts 5:37 that was slain during a rebellion, so along the way there may be a translational error here to confuse the events of the two. Even so, one fairly minor detail having a contradiction does not mean the entire Bible is to be discarded. Find me a contradiction on that main points of the Bible (like who God is, who Christ is, the tennents of salvation, etc.) and then your argument might carry more merit.


Without futher research (and if I look around I might find it), while this looks like a contradiction, it likely is not.

Originally posted by Elijio
BtW if you read the bible like the bible you will see nothing but if you read it like a textbook you go" oh wait a minute why would a perfect god tell people to kill..." etc and you see things clearly. BTW the two versions are taken from the New International Version (NIV) of the Bible. The word of God is edited so much these days. perhaps you have a different version?

I use a New American Standard, although I have occasionally looked up versus in other translations if I am confused or curious about somthing.

I read the Bible as both the Bible, the word of God, and like a text book, while I have my beleifs and faith, I feel I am pretty open as far as most Christians go.