Aren't you Americans extremely angry?

Interesting that a " history student " can't see what's going down right under his nose.

What does history tell you about the abuse of power?
What does history tell you about the rise and fall of the Third Reich?

What does history tell you about the quest for power orchestrated in the name of God?

Hey Muaddib,

the iraqi people burnt the oil right before america invaded, i don't know if they burned enough to make a difference though.


And if america took over the oil of iraq im sure it would be done in secracy?



Edited: still got to tell you that i like your avatar hehe

[edit on 7-10-2006 by selfless]

Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree

Interesting that a " history student " can't see what's going down right under his nose.

Oh you mean that history should have taught me that having my own opinion means "i am profeteering from the war or are ignorant"?.....

Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
What does history tell you about the abuse of power?

Abuse of power.... what in the world are you talking about?....

You want to learn about history?.... Read and learn what happened in Sudan when "Islamic extremists are in power and have been left alone to do what they will"....

Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
What does history tell you about the rise and fall of the Third Reich?

....What in the world does the "third reich" have to do about what is going on today?....

The government of the U.S. has people who represent minorities in power, Hitler thought that minorities were a disease and they weakened a country....

I really don't have many words to respond to this sort of..... statement....

Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
What does history tell you about the quest for power orchestrated in the name of God?

What?.... i think you fell from the tree and hit your head too hard...

There are millions of people who follow one faith/way of life, does that mean that these people shouldn't try to stop atrocities happening in the world?....

[edit on 7-10-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by selfless
Hey Muaddib,

the iraqi people burnt the oil right before america invaded, i don't know if they burned enough to make a difference though.

No, that was members of Saddam's regime the ones to burn the oilfields in the 1990s, it wasn't the Iraqi people. It was elements of Saddam's regime.

Originally posted by selfless
And if america took over the oil of iraq im sure it would be done in secracy?

You can't take all the oil from a country without the whole world not knowing about it, and Iraqis still pay pretty cheap for their oil, so where are they getting their oil if it was taken away?

Insurgents/terrorists are making it a lot harder for anyone over there, but even Iraqis have taken arms against insurgents and this should tell you that the insurgents/terrorists do not speak for the regular Iraqi people.

Originally posted by selfless
Edited: still got to tell you that i like your avatar hehe

[edit on 7-10-2006 by selfless]

Well thank you, I was going to put another but it was against the new policies on avatars, i liked this one too and chose it. It was about time for me to change avatars.

Originally posted by Jamuhn

By scaring the US into doing it, or at least the US using them as an excuse to do it.

Examples...Patriot Act, Signing Statements, Terror Alert System, Extraordinary Renditions, International and Domestic Spy Programs, Redefining or Ignoring International Laws and Treaties, Silencing Whistleblowers/Dissidents, etc. etc.

This government is all too often willing to trade little bits of freedom here and there for "security."

[edit on 7-10-2006 by Jamuhn]

Everytime there has been a major conflict and the U.S. was a part of it there have been new laws to deal with some of the problems in those conflicts, and everytime when those conflicts ended the laws returned back to normal.

This conflict is not going to continue indefinetly, but however long it takes i am certain that "leaving Islamic extremists alone to do what their will" is not going to make things better, but far worse.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Examples...Patriot Act, Signing Statements, Terror Alert System, Extraordinary Renditions, International and Domestic Spy Programs, Redefining or Ignoring International Laws and Treaties, Silencing Whistleblowers/Dissidents, etc. etc.

This government is all too often willing to trade little bits of freedom here and there for "security."

Everytime there has been a major conflict and the U.S. was a part of it there have been new laws to deal with some of the problems in those conflicts, and everytime when those conflicts ended the laws returned back to normal.

You think that's going to happen? Many of these new laws and tactis have been made permanent already.

This conflict is not going to continue indefinetly, but however long it takes i am certain that "leaving Islamic extremists alone to do what their will" is not going to make things better, but far worse.

Who are you quoting? Anyway, taking away the freedom of Americans and scaring them with terror warnings does nothing to the Islamic extremists in the world at large, but to show them they have the ability to change our way of life.

[edit on 7-10-2006 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Mdv2

I've been thinking about this for a while, why has the American people not been pressing for the resignation of the government? Whether the Bush administration was aware of the fact that Saddam Hussein did not possess Weapons of Mass Destruction or not, they did fail, and not just a small failure. It's a failure that one should take responsibility for, in this case the Bush Administration.

How do Americans in general think about this?

Interesting point of view. While I do not subscribe to your thought processes, I have asked similar questions.

Why isn't anyone pressing for resignation? Half of the people in this country don't even know who the vice-president is, much less how to speak up for themselves. The people who visit this site are the exception and not the rule.

Our public education system is a failure and we are failing to fill the next generation's mind with knowledge. We, instead, fill their heads full of garbage and nonsense. How Lindsey Lohan needs a sandwich or who Flavor Flav is boinking at the vinyard this week.

The majority of the so-called educated people are zombies who merely parrot information regurgitated by the talking heads. Even a lot of people who think they have a clue only search the Internet for "facts." Their research is lazy and if they cannot find it by doing a google search, it must not be factual. Sound familiar? People say "well, it has been proven." Has it? Proven to whom and by whom? Was their thinking critical? Was their logic sound? I don't know. I wasn't there. Proof is something we ALL must find. No one can find it for us.

The phrase "it has been proven" is nothing more than an opinion. I find it interesting that the same people who say something was proven by science are always finding that science changes its mind. How was the Universe created? Science says one thing today and then tomorrow it will have a new version. Nothing is ever "proven."

Everyone wants you to point out your references which are available on the net. What if the facts are available through human beings who have been there? Sorry, that doesn't count. How do we know they were actually there?

BLAH BLAH BLAH. I read this garbage over and over again. I sometimes wonder if our brains have fallen our of our skulls. I used to read the postings of Vincere7 and he would say that no one uses critcal thinking anymore. I was skepitical at first, but he was absolutely right.

The people who are running the world have some of the best thinkers on the planet on their team. While the majority of us argue about google references, those in power are going about business as usual. Before we can do anything, we must find our brains and come together. We are useless if we do not put aside the silly arguments. This forum is a microcosm of this planet. If we cannot get it together here, how can we expect our world to do the same?

Back to your question about whether or not I am upset. I am upset, but I am trying to do what I can about it by talking to people and encouraging them to turn off the TV, do some reading and try to see the big picture. Being upset or thinking negatively will only turn me into what they want me to be.

Why are we there?

Strategically speaking, I think the US govt was duped by Iran into taking out Saddam. We are there so we are stuck. If we leave, Iran takes over Iraq and then moves on to a bigger prize. Perhaps Kuwait, then Saudi Arabia. Then you will see a push west and south. There is more going on in that region than people think.

What should we do?

Personally, I think we should abandon Iraq again and let Iran take over the region. Let the mases convert or die so that the Saudis, too can reap what they have sewn in their maddrassas so that the US and Europe are not the only ones to bathe in comeuppance. Then, once Isreal is gone and the new Persian empire is knocking on Europe's door, we can watch them fall, too.

Now, I will go too far:

Honestly, I think the US will have converted well before then or atleast have been weakened to non superpower status.

Is it really so bad to kneel down and face the East while we pray? We can all quietly and privately worship whomever we wish while publically, we follow the calls to prayer every morning and evening. Most of the sins will be removed and we will all be so much closer to God.

Crooks and people who are foolish enough to speak their minds publically will be dealt with in the old way. Women will be able to cover their hair for everyone but their husband. The way it was meant to be. Porn, pork, and alcohol will be a thing of the past so that we all can be so much healthier both physically, mentally, and spiritually. Once the entire world follows Islam, there will be no more need for the Shahid to spill their blood and it will truly be heaven on Earth.

Back to reality:

While this is not how I really feel, there are many who do feel this way. Why should we make people mad or go against the grain? Why should we make such a fuss? All that takes so much energy. We all make and shape our world and universe every day by what we think and how we think. Either we come together and decide the way we want our world to be or someone will do it for us. It is up to YOU!

What are YOU going to do about it?

Originally posted by Muaddib

I am not kidding, and you are proving with your statement that "you have not lost your freedom of speech".....

Claiming that i am anti-American because I am stating my opinion does not prove your point...

Didnt you even read what I posted? The very last thing you lose, is your freedom of speech once that happens its too late. We need to stop the government stealing our freedom way before it gets to the point of losing your freedom of speech.

Could you tell us how is the "government of the U.S. instilling fear"?....

Do I really need to answer this? They have exploited terror to take our freedom since 911. Where have you been?

The Islamic terrorists are the ones using fear trying to change people's opinions, not the governments.

Really? What is the president doing then when he goes and make his point that we need wire taps, we need torture, we need to be un-American to fight terror.

Assuming that all human beings are here under the watchful eye of one God or one supreme force,
what then drives one rational human being to fill their heart with enough rage to take the life of another human being?

What motivates us to forget our humanity, our compassion and our decency?

If we are all equal in the eyes of God, then who manages to set us against one another and why?

Who gains from all this bloodshed and chaos?

Why is it that we still allow less than 1% of the world's population to dictate our future?

Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree



Why is it that we still allow less than 1% of the world's population to dictate our future?

Lack of knowledge, power and drive. It's been done though, Russian Revolution, French Revolution, overthrows too numerous to mention.

Quite true, but why is it that we still tear each other apart instead of seeing that we have a greater common
enemy?

Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree

Quite true, but why is it that we still tear each other apart instead of seeing that we have a greater common
enemy?

Are you reading my mind?

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

Exactly what I was thinking man.

We won the war. It is the occupation of Iraq that we are losing. We should never have stayed as long as we have and we should not stay longer. Iraqi people want to fight it out that is up to them.

Our presidents policies/orders have killed more humans including americans than the terrorist have.

I say we pull out and let the Iraqi's do what they want to do. If Iraq becomes a threat someday then we can address that problem at that time. There is no reason to let more Americans and Brits die in Iraq.

If my country were invaded even if I was glad they removed a brutal leader, I would probably eventualy join the resistance to get the invaders out, even if I agreed with the removal of a horrible leader.

Bush policies will only kill even more Americans in Iraq. I bet more americans have died to Bush polices than have died to Al-quida led terror attacks and even more are dieing on a daily basis. I value American soldiers lives as much as any american civilian unlike my current government.

The money being wasted sustaning the occupation could go toward protecting our extreeml;y vulnerable borders and ports. We are talking billions of dollars if use in R&D to develope cargo scanners could prevent any rogue nation in the future from sneaking WMD into America yet we continui this asinine war in Iraq.

On the other hand the Afgan war was the right thing and we shoudl spend money helping those poor people become educated and building a robust infrastruture and economy.

Lastly we should not do buisness with Nations like Saudi Arabia who allow Religeous leaders to teach followers that unbelivers should be killed.

The next step is to build many many nuclear power plants to replace oil use and to develope Hydrogen Cars. The money wasted on wars could easily be used to R&D ways to forget about oil and we wont ever need to worry about Oil ever again.

The path to true peace and prosperity is not contimued war but R&D and border security.

Originally posted by RRconservative


How about these quotes!

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." --Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Letter to President Clinton, signed by: -- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

Strange, but I don't remember us attacking Iraq in 1998 though. Your point would have been taken had we attacked Iraq in 1998 using these statements. Bush and his administration was in power at the time and it was his responsibility as leader of this nation to verify the facts from several years before as well as reports he was being given at the current time. I realize you are looking for a way out but its a pretty desperate attempt to use something that happened several years prior as an excuse and under a totally different administration. It further proves how inept this administration is if it was going by the statements of a former administration from several years prior.

Originally posted by danwild6
How were American soldiers unprotected? Do you have a link to back your claim that the US Army wasn't prepared for NBC warfare?

I had to address this. Cmon now you seriously need linkage to show you how our men and women had to purchase their own Kevlar and the men and women in the field were providing their own armor plating for the humvees from junkyards and other outlets because the humvees were not armored sufficiently for the IED's aas well as attacks from insurgents? Your memory cannot be that short that you forget about our men and women over in Iraq that easily do you? Then again even at the "Town Hall" metting in Iraq where Rumpsfeld was fielding questions from our Men and Women in Iraq , he acted as though he did not know about these things and again vowed to make sure that these things were taken care of immediately even though it was HE HIMSELF who originally made the statements about the humvees and armor to be taken care of months before! Sheesh talk about forgetfullness.


Pie

How do Americans in general think about this?

I'm pissed off, I totally hate what our government has done all over the world.
We have homeless vetrans roaming the streets, healthy strong individuals that have no idea if they'll have dinner today.
We ship jobs overseas to save a few pennies. Why does our government do this crap to us? It's not right. It's also not right what our government does to other countries without our consent. We are the people, but we have no say..... That is not what our country was founded on. It makes me incredibly sad and very pissed off!
I suffer from "lack of information", how exactly do you overthrow the government? I think it needs done, and very soon!

Originally posted by Muaddib

You can't take all the oil from a country without the whole world not knowing about it, and Iraqis still pay pretty cheap for their oil, so where are they getting their oil if it was taken away?

Yes oil is cheap compared to here but then again even .24 a liter is expensive when you have no job, no money and a family to feed so what good is it being cheap when everything else is sky-high!

"I pay 60,000 ID (41 dollars) per month for buying electricity from private generators in my district to gain additional ten-hour electricity supply. The rest of the day I use my small generator," Adnan al-Sarraf, 43, a government employee said.

"This cost most of my salary because I also have to buy fuel for my generator," he said, adding the current fuel price was beyond his imagination.


The war-torn country is sporadically facing a ridiculous oil crisis now. Gasoline in state-run gas stations is sold at 350 IDs (0.24 dollar) per liter, but in short supply. Many people have to purchase gasoline 1,500 IDs (1 dollar )per liter in black markets.

Source

They are at war..I know as much as you'd like to paint this country as being "Saved" by us and that everything is just peachy keen-o cool over there.You can't work if there is a war. Israel shut down everything for over a month because of katayusha rocket attacks..No one worked for over 30 days and here these people have been at war for over 3 years now! You need to remove those rosie red sunglasses and see the real deal. Obviously the Oil profits are not being distributed to the Iraqi people as its supposed to be, so its going somewhere. Surely not into these peoples pockets.


Pie

Originally posted by Beer_Guy

We ship jobs overseas to save a few pennies. Why does our government do this crap to us? It's not right. It's also not right what our government does to other countries without our consent. We are the people, but we have no say..... That is not what our country was founded on. It makes me incredibly sad and very pissed off!
I suffer from "lack of information", how exactly do you overthrow the government? I think it needs done, and very soon!

Thats the thing too, they dont care about us anymore, or they wouldnt allow this terrible trend of shipping jobs to save a few pennies...

You have voted Beer_Guy for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

As an American I am mad about the war yes. I think it could have been won sooner with more boots on the ground. However I know we must have a presence in the ME because of the oil supplies. You can bet your life we will not leave Iraq for a very long time. Its as much of a strategic interest as it is a economic interest. We cannot afford not to have a presence in the ME, especially in this age and time. I am sure in time we will pull all our forces out of the cities and let the Iraqi's handle their own. We will have a permanant ME base there in the desert and we will pay dearly for it ( monetarily ) I am sure.

Originally posted by IThinkTooMuch
As an American I am mad about the war yes. I think it could have been won sooner with more boots on the ground. However I know we must have a presence in the ME because of the oil supplies. You can bet your life we will not leave Iraq for a very long time. Its as much of a strategic interest as it is a economic interest. We cannot afford not to have a presence in the ME, especially in this age and time. I am sure in time we will pull all our forces out of the cities and let the Iraqi's handle their own. We will have a permanant ME base there in the desert and we will pay dearly for it ( monetarily ) I am sure.

Not for nothing but we can have a presence in the Middle East WITHOUT agression. On top of that if we were to play a fair hand in the ME rather then playing favorites and looking the other way when it came to our allies in the ME, not only would we be having an easier time with Oil, we would be having an easier time with the War On Terror as well. We get no co-operation from countries that we got with the first war with Iraq because of this reason. If this administration plays a fair hand in the ME you would see much more favorable outcomes across the board. The ME was always friendly to the USA without agression. With so many Middle Easterners living in the USA, how could this not be possible?

Simply by playing fair we could accomplish a great deal. Pakistan, India, NK and Israel all aquired nuke tech illegitemately, submit to no oversight as well as without signing any NPT ..fine then lets not overlook those 4 and reprimand Iran and NK. We need to look at all 5 and reprimand them all equally regardless of their allied status.

Thats how you will get respect..Not by killing people but by stopping the possibility of it through the use of diplomacy and equality.

No one would respect a Cop that lets a Strip club open on one side of the street while closing another right across the street ,just because its his cousins club. Thats being a dirty cop.