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Where have all the possibilities gone??

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posted on Mar, 2 2003 @ 11:16 PM
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The capacity to break bricks can be applied fully and solely to any aspect of the Human form.

And that would include the Brain.




posted on Mar, 3 2003 @ 09:57 PM
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I'm not sure how many forms will view this concept of the "strength of mind." I know psionics and chi are two main ways of understand this. I'll even go out on a limb and say that "the Force" from Star Wars was an elementary attempt to get at this point. Although I have not proof for this, I link up arcane magic with this same concept, as well. Let's not forget Neo on the Matrix.

I've done quite a few mind exercises, but I've almost always failed in my attempts. Once every day or two I try to visualize a new way to move an object across the room. So far, I haven't had any luck. On the otherhand, when I get up and move the object, I feel fulfilled
.




posted on Mar, 3 2003 @ 11:05 PM
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A small joke:

A police officer pulled over a drunk walking along side the road one evening. The officer noticed that the man was pulling a chain over his shoulder. Completely confused, the officer asked the drunk, "Hey Mister, why are you pulling that chain?" The drunk simply responded, "Have you ever tried to push one of these things?"

Now for your post:

"Gut feelings can have access to the Archive and a person properly trained can access this sort of intuitive
Conclusion at will."

But can't a gut feeling be wrong? Wisdom from one lifetime (assuming reincarnation) does not necessarily apply to a new lifetime. Let's say a boy is nervous about dating a girl he likes. Does this gut feeling have anything to do with a past lifetime? Probably not. How does one discern a normal gut feeling from a "spiritual gut feeling?"

"Much like one properly trained can break bricks, at the very least that is the implication of the text."

I can break bricks with a gut feeling? Is that related to chi? Or is that related to "super" confidence? Or are you meaning this in a separate sense?

"Keep in mind that this is not necessarily a reference to ESP."

A question: Similar to what was said in the Matrix (excuse me if I seem hoakey), can an object be manipulated by assuming that it doesn't exist? Or perhaps in a different form? Perhaps using the hologram analogy, the object can be manipulated to any specification the user decrees. What are your thoughts?


"But rather an emphasis should be placed on a heightened capacity as an observer."

Could you go into more detail?

"As an ability which allows the sage, to discern much more than the average person in relation to any particular phenomenon."

I know just a little about this idea. I'm sure this rabbit hole goes deep.


"The ancient masters of the Tao
Had subtle marvelous mystic penetration
A depth that cannot be known.
It is exactly because that they are unknowable
That we are forced to pay attention to their appearance."

I suppose this is the "gut feeling" and ascended knowledge. We pay attention, perhaps, because we do not understand it and believe it to be "magic" of sorts.

"Hesitant, like one crossing an ice-covered river.
Ready, like one afraid of his neighbors on all sides.
Dignified, like a guest.
Loose, like ice about to melt.
Straightforward, like an uncarved block of wood.
Open, like a valley.
Obscure, like muddy water.

Who can be muddled, and use clarity to gradually become lucid?
Who can be calm, and use constant application for eventual success?"

I'll just accept these as traits... perhaps we can come back and pick through them later.

"The one who holds to this path does not crave fulfillment.
Precisely because he does not crave fulfillment
He can be shattered
And do without quick restitution."

Once one has the truth, they have no need for external "fulfillments." A child must have a parent get in the refridge, remove the juice, put the juice in the proper cup, put a lid on the juice, and watch the child with the cup. The adult, however, can drink at his own will. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with this, but it sounds good
.



"This presents the issue of access to the soul archive of knowledge as well as awareness on the part of the sage that death is not defined in relation to an end. This with respect to addressing the issues of life."

This is starting to make sense... scary. Death is what, in your opinion?


"Effect emptiness to the extreme.
Keep stillness whole.
Myriad things act in concert.
I therefore watch their return.
All things flourish and each returns to its root."

Emptiness becomes/is full (has properties).
Once you are still, you can change places with those things that move.
Everything acts together (all things are linked/relativity) and part of the whole (Mother Nature)
This myriad (10,000 things) will live, then die.
They return to the nature(the source) that gave birth to them.

"Returning to the root is called quietude.
Quietude is called returning to life.
Return to life is called constant.
Knowing this constant is called illumination.
Acting arbitrarily without knowing the constant is harmful.
Knowing the constant is receptivity, which is impartial."

This "nature" does NOT change (unlike the myriad).
Once one understands that an aspect of life does not change, they are "illuminated," or perhaps a term for partial enlightenment. This illumination makes you impartial (yin/yang-understanding balance).

"Impartiality is kingship.
Kingship is Heaven.
Heaven is Tao
Tao is eternal."

This impartiality leads to acting with true honor, which leads to divine understanding, which leads to the Tao (or perhaps God). If you become One with the Tao/God, you can live for eternity (?).

"Though you lose the body, you do not die."

You are now One with that which does not change. You are beyond the myriad of things. You are nature. You do not die. You have transcended (?).



posted on Mar, 5 2003 @ 11:39 PM
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The Phenomenon of Chi is extremely unique, both from the standpoint of Biology and Physics. With the proper attention to an object, a person can apply what is considerably more than normal force. To cause an affect upon the object which is observable to all present. The more common examples in fact seem to pertain to a substantial increase in the persons performing these acts, pertaining to structural density. What makes it unique is that this ability more then often requires only specific training, but that is not the only way this phenomenon has been observed. Extreme stress and concern over loved one's seems to as well provoke the same effect under emergency situation for the layman, in certain situations.

In this case we are discussing specifically the application of Chi to intellectual pursuits. While I do want to address more on psionics at present, would like at this time, like to look at the more conventional applications in relation to this quest. It important Protector for one to learn to crawl before they can walk and in relation to the application of Chi to the intellect. Achieving such things as moving objects is best done when more conventional accomplishments are a part of ones past.

---------------------------------------
A small joke....

The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans. On the other hand, the French eat a lot of fat and also suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans. The Japanese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans. The Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and also suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans. Conclusion: Eat & drink what you like. It's speaking English that kills you
---------------------------------------



But can't a gut feeling be wrong? Wisdom from one lifetime (assuming reincarnation) does not necessarily apply to a new lifetime. Let's say a boy is nervous about dating a girl he likes. Does this gut feeling have anything to do with a past lifetime? Probably not. How does one discern a normal gut feeling from a "spiritual gut feeling?"


Intuition is perhaps a better word and in relation to how one relates to differences
these are issues, which we will be addressing with respect to the Tao.



I can break bricks with a gut feeling? Is that related to chi? Or is that related to "super" confidence? Or are you meaning this in a separate sense?


The confidence often applied to gut feelings often exceeds the norm, in relation to confidence with respect to dealing with every day life. We are entering into issues, which on the surface are subjective but with respect to the Tao. We will attempt to find definitions pertaining to an objective response. Protector, with respect to this we need to address the Tao te ching in its entirety. From there we need to look at that entirety, from the perspective of a whole which addresses to Tao. Keep in mind Protector at present the circle is not yet complete.



A question: Similar to what was said in the Matrix (excuse me if I seem hoakey), can an object be manipulated by assuming that it doesn't exist? Or perhaps in a different form? Perhaps using the hologram analogy, the object can be manipulated to any specification the user decrees. What are your thoughts?


Perhaps at this point a set of links would be appropriate....

www.geocities.com...

www.universal-tao.com...


Assuming that something does not exist only represent the glass as half full (that is the analogy applied to a glass half full of water). Originally that was a conclusion in retains to the context of the analogy (when we as a society did not know about oxygen). A far as can (potentially) an object be manipulated beyond what we understand to be its existence, that would depend on what physics existed beyond our understudying. At the very least that is my conclusion in relation to your question. The very purpose of this discussion is to move beyond the point in which what we know today in respect to physics.



Could you go into more detail?


I am referring to the ability to apply more that what is often concluded in relation to a person capacity to apply awareness, often regarded as about 10% on the brains capacity. What I am suggesting is that mankind have an inherent ability to use much more. I would site at the moment a common example expressed by Carl Jung. This in regard to a scientist, who had invested a considerable time of his life. In search of a structure to a particular molecule. During a dream he experienced what he was searching for (I believe the molecule in question was benzene). The detail and memory of the event was all he needed to complete what to him was the culmination of his lifeís work.



I suppose this is the "gut feeling" and ascended knowledge. We pay attention, perhaps, because we do not understand it and believe it to be "magic" of sorts.


In respect to events where there is a murder committed, witnesses who were preset but did not actually see the event are often hypnotized. During which, details they were not paying attention to do come up. We acknowledge that such an application of hypnosis is not magic and in respect to this, neither is such a format in respect to the Tao.



"Hesitant, like one crossing an ice-covered river.
Ready, like one afraid of his neighbors on all sides.
Dignified, like a guest.
Loose, like ice about to melt.
Straightforward, like an uncrated block of wood.
Open, like a valley.
Obscure, like muddy water.

Who can be muddled, and use clarity to gradually become lucid?
Who can be calm, and use constant application for eventual success?"
[/qoute]

Keep in mind that what we are addressing is a process, one in which makes possible the definition of a person as a sage. as an event which takes at least 20 years. Consider that people's life spans were often less in the past.

[quote]
This is starting to make sense... scary. Death is what, in your opinion?


Death is a moment in which the soul/archive has the opportunity to access information about the life that has just been lived. External fulfillments address those issues, which were in fact not related to the development/education of the soul. Whatever is concrete from the perspective of the soul is what is relevant. In respect to this the soul is identified as capable of perception and awareness of his/her surroundings. This in respect to what lies beyond our definition of what is important. Specifically, what I wish to emphasis as important is the issue of emotions, which to the soul can be understood as concrete. To be even more specific, concrete in the sense that from the perspective of the soul they can be perceived as solids.



This impartiality leads to acting with true honor, which leads to divine understanding, which leads to the Tao (or perhaps God). If you become One with the Tao/God, you can live for eternity (?).

"Though you lose the body, you do not die."

You are now One with that which does not change. You are beyond the myriad of things. You are nature. You do not die. You have transcended (?).


In respect to reincarnation it possible one has experienced a million lives, each one supplying information relevant to the survival of the current one. The question becomes, to what extent does or can the archive play a role in ones life? An answer being, dependent on ones training or of desperate need. Personally I prefer training to concern than, at the last minute I will be helped by a guardian angel. In the east the Chi presents that as alternative definition to phenomena, whose conclusions are often described
and explained in different respects (guardian angel).



Look for it, it cannot be seen.
It is called the distant.
Listen for it, it cannot be heard.
It is called the rare.
Reach for it, it cannot be gotten.
It is called the subtle.
These three ultimately cannot be fathomed.
Therefore they join to become one.

Its top is not bright;
Its bottom is not dark;
Existing continuously, it cannot be named and it returns to no-thingness.

Thus, it is called the formless form,
The image of no-thing.
This is called the most obscure.

Go to meet it, you cannot see its face.
Follow it, you cannot see its back.

By holding to the ancient Tao
You can manage present existence
And know the primordial beginning.

This is called the very beginning thread of the Tao.




Read the links carefully Protector and understand this is not a simple subject. With respect to issues which offer alternative definitions but portend to the same solutions. Might I suggest that is it the Tao, which offers concrete evidence.


What are your thoughts?




[Edited on 7-3-2003 by Toltec]



posted on Mar, 9 2003 @ 07:59 PM
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"...pertaining to structural density. What makes it unique is that this ability more then often requires only specific training."

So does chi actually change the structure of the hand (more density)?

"It important Protector for one to learn to crawl before they can walk and in relation to the application of Chi to the intellect."

What's my first step in learning to crawl?

"Intuition is perhaps a better word and in relation to how one relates to differences these are issues, which we will be addressing with respect to the Tao."

Fair enough.

"We are entering into issues, which on the surface are subjective but with respect to the Tao. We will attempt to find definitions pertaining to an objective response. Protector, with respect to this we need to address the Tao te ching in its entirety.... Keep in mind Protector at present the circle is not yet complete."

I understand. Quick question: Is the Yin Yang a circle or a sphere?

I will check out those links later on, when I get a bit more time to myself, so I can sit down and read one or both in its entirity.

"Assuming that something does not exist only represent the glass as half full."

Good point.

"As far as can (potentially) an object be manipulated beyond what we understand to be its existence, that would depend on what physics existed beyond our understudying."

Yes, but parts of us exist beyond our understanding. I'm more interested in understanding how to get beyond the bondage of daily physics and get to that archive you were speaking of.

"The very purpose of this discussion is to move beyond the point in which what we know today in respect to physics."

I hope so, because if we were just following regular physics, I'll just use the information for my degree
.

"Keep in mind that what we are addressing is a process, one in which makes possible the definition of a person as a sage. as an event which takes at least 20 years. Consider that people's life spans were often less in the past."

So becoming a sage takes 20 years? Or just in relation to certain practices (methods)? Such as, a Shaolin monk takes 17+ years to be fully trained.

"Death is a moment in which the soul/archive has the opportunity to access information about the life that has just been lived."

That has some merit, I suppose. There are often references of small moments becoming hours for people who have had NDE's... or hours being a few minutes of a NDE.

"External fulfillments address those issues, which were in fact not related to the development/education of the soul."

Are these even that important? (e.g. Spring Break)

"Specifically, what I wish to emphasis as important is the issue of emotions, which to the soul can be understood as concrete. To be even more specific, concrete in the sense that from the perspective of the soul they can be perceived as solids."

So how do emotions relate to the soul (more specifically)? I understand the "solids" idea, but I'm hung up on why the soul would find emotions to be solids. How do emotions shape or speak to the soul?

"In respect to reincarnation it possible one has experienced a million lives, each one supplying information relevant to the survival of the current one."

Isn't it also possible that the soul is now living its first life? What implications would this have?

"The question becomes, to what extent does or can the archive play a role in ones life? An answer being, dependent on ones training or of desperate need."

I agree. Why does one need training to access this archive? It seems like that would be similar to giving someone a car with no car keys, tires, and an engine that needs a tune-up. Did God slap us silly before we entered this life?


If all else fails, I'll take a guardian angel (if the chi isn't flow'n).

"Look for it, it cannot be seen.
It is called the distant.
Listen for it, it cannot be heard.
It is called the rare.
Reach for it, it cannot be gotten.
It is called the subtle.
These three ultimately cannot be fathomed.
Therefore they join to become one."

Is this a fool's encyclopedia to relativity? This sounds like relativity mixed with theories of Aether and God/Tao. I'm not sure about the "joining" part, as to how it relates to your lessons.

"Its top is not bright;
Its bottom is not dark;
Existing continuously, it cannot be named and it returns to no-thingness."

The Void. The Tao. (conceptually speaking)

"Thus, it is called the formless form,
The image of no-thing.
This is called the most obscure."

Sounds like The Blob.

"Go to meet it, you cannot see its face.
Follow it, you cannot see its back."

But it's there. Where can I meet it? I'd like to talk to it.

"By holding to the ancient Tao
You can manage present existence
And know the primordial beginning."

Ok.

"This is called the very beginning thread of the Tao."

String theory? (I'm just babbling) This chapter was pretty simple for me to follow. I've thought on this information for a couple years now and have come to understand what it means.


"Read the links carefully Protector and understand this is not a simple subject."

I gathered that about the first line or two into this discussion.

"With respect to issues which offer alternative definitions but portend to the same solutions. Might I suggest that is it the Tao, which offers concrete evidence."

So if life is made of matter, but emotions are what is truly concrete, then emotions DO make up life? Or CAN make up life? What are your thoughts?



posted on Mar, 11 2003 @ 08:20 PM
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So does chi actually change the structure of the hand (more density)?


I feel that however what is made possible by training, that allows for example, the breaking of 10 cinder blocks with ones forehead is inherent. The training simply allows for the observer to realize there potential. Its really not different than learning how to walk or gain a skill. The potential was already there and with the proper education it was made apparent. Pertaining to gaining skills or walking most people can accomplish these goals. I feel the same applies to developing capacities known to relate to Chi.




What's my first step in learning to crawl?


Martial arts are a very good way to gaining this type of understanding as well as is meditation. Being at peace with yourself as well as your surroundings (this includes those who interact with you in those surroundings is also important. Learning a little bit about everything helps this in respect to those vocations that do not necessarily apply to your specific interests. And finally the most important thing is to have patients, developing Chi ability does not come overnight it is the natural conclusion

to having developed symbols of meaning which the mind/brain can understand.

Itís important to remember that human language and all the forms of non-verbal communication we are accustomed to. Merely scratch the surface when it comes to comprehending the gamut of human mental capacity and the symbols, which have developed since creation. They specifically (the ones we know well) are guidelines not absolutes. Which are by definition generalization of a meaning, which is both very specific and very generalized. An example in respect to how this can be defined is with regards to the molecular structure of an object in respect to function.



I understand. Quick question: Is the Yin Yang a circle or a sphere?


The Tao is a circle, which is and aspect of a sphere, which is an aspect of what lies beyond the sphere, and what can be defined as beyond that.... Ad infinitum. Each term representing a structure which is both specific and generalized in relation to defining what is before and after. Consider that the entirety of curved space-time is actually represented in what we normally acknowledge as reality.



Yes, but parts of us exist beyond our understanding. I'm more interested in understanding how to get beyond the bondage of daily physics and get to that archive you were speaking of.


consider that what we accept as the differentiation of our physical structure is in reality, representative of space-time curvature. This presenting that space-time is curved equally and is so represented, not just on a cosmological scale but also on a quantum scale. We define ourselves as being made entirely of flesh but at the same time a factual conclusion is that our bodies are made entirely of subatomic particles.

Archive is that aspect to of us which is alive and aware of reality, from the perspective
Presented just above, with regards to the latter.




So becoming a sage takes 20 years? Or just in relation to certain practices (methods)? Such as, a Shaolin monk takes 17+ years to be fully trained.


Agreed



Are these even that important? (e.g. Spring Break)


Our discussions include to date the relevance of every moment from the perspective of a cosmological whole. Each action/decision is part of a process alternative to how we understand life. The answer to your question is yes, everything is important (Even spring break).




So how do emotions relate to the soul (more specifically)? I understand the "solids" idea, but I'm hung up on why the soul would find emotions to be solids. How do emotions shape or speak to the soul?


One way of understanding this is from the perspective of Christianity from the context of the Holy Bible. In it a reasonable definition of God is Love, for Jesus Christ Peace seem the best word and with regards to the Holy Spirit Happiness, is the term which comes to mind. Therefore to experience true peace or true happiness, one must experience true love. In defining the Holy Trinity in this way pertains to a realm in which, the emotions we feels exist as concrete from the context of the existence of the Holy Trinity as one. Will be more than happy to address the Tao in this context, but in respect to this response. With relation to what has been offered in this post how does this quantify for you as an answer.



Isn't it also possible that the soul is now living its first life? What implications would this have?


A response to this pertains to dogma in respect to religious systems of belief. Perhaps though more in relation to misinterpretation over the natural progression and development of a soul. Those who accept reincarnation do not necessarily acknowledge a human incarnation as first or for that matter the last. To be honest my personal tendency is to see the human incarnation as the higher form, but since I am not perfect the answer in reality may be different. in respect you our conversation I have applied an understanding which I feel is accepted generally and with a reasonable amount of a conservative ethic. Nonetheless the Archive is a vast storehouse of information which does no need to be regulated by any opinion.



I agree. Why does one need training to access this archive? It seems like that would be similar to giving someone a car with no car keys, tires, and an engine that needs a tune-up. Did God slap us silly before we entered this life?
[/quote]

Here we get back to the idea of learning to crawl before one can walk.



Is this a fool's encyclopedia to relativity? This sounds like relativity mixed with theories of Aether and God/Tao. I'm not sure about the "joining" part, as to how it relates to your lessons.

So if life is made of matter, but emotions are what is truly concrete, then emotions DO make up life? Or CAN make up life? What are your thoughts?


Take a 1000 people put them in a room large enough to seat them comfortably and ask them to prepare a 1000 word (minimum) SA on there individual definition of the word Love. Carefully read each report and what you will notice, is the complexity which pertains to ascertaining a clear meaning (this applies to every emotion a person is capable of feeling). Begin organizing the various SA's in respect to issues in
common and you will find that what we call love can be broken down into at the very least 20 other words (probably more). An assesement of those words and there definitions brings greater clarity. In respect to finding an ultimate meaning in respect to how love can be defined from a perspective alternative to ours.

My alternative response is that to God, feelings are what pay the bills


What are your thoughts?



posted on Mar, 11 2003 @ 09:25 PM
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"The training simply allows for the observer to realize there potential. Its really not different than learning how to walk or gain a skill. The potential was already there and with the proper education it was made apparent. Pertaining to gaining skills or walking most people can accomplish these goals. I feel the same applies to developing capacities known to relate to Chi."

You became a politician! Wow! Such a nice, descriptive, looooong answer that did not answer my question to the slightest degree
. I know what you mean about developing potential. The question still remains, "Does chi actually make the hand more dense?" You answered with ideology, but I was more concerned with the specifics on this one. Chi is more of a bioelectrical energy, but that does not mean that it can't increase pressure to an area, creating greater density. Looking from another angle, chi may only be a result of a changing perception (perhaps something I cannot yet understand).

For example, uranium ore will make the handler sick from radiation, but to a nuclear engineer, that same uranium can power a submarine. The only way to go from victum to victor is to have the knowledge of the specific processes involved. Thus, whether chi actually creates density, or if chi is just a biproduct of another process... the answer to the specific question becomes important. A wrong answer can forever hamper a student. Imagine telling that handler to eat the rock for good health. You just killed him. Catch a fish, eat for a day. Learn to fish, eat for a lifetime. Have someone drown you while fishing, you're dead. See my point?

I want to make one last example before I go on. Imagine your first grade teacher told you: 2 + 2 = 5. For the rest of the year, you "know" that 2 + 2 = 5, but that next year you get numerous bad grades because you are wrong. The same applies to knowledge about chi, from my perspective. If I start assimilating bad information, which I believe I have, then I will be practicing the wrong things time and time again. Thus, it is not good enough to have a teacher, but to have a teacher who is right and causes you to be right.

"And finally the most important thing is to have patients, developing Chi ability does not come overnight it is the natural conclusion"

Fortunitely I have a good supply of patience. I'm in no rush to move a mountain, but learning to fly would be fun
.

"Itís important to remember that human language and all the forms of non-verbal communication we are accustomed to. Merely scratch the surface when it comes to comprehending the gamut of human mental capacity and the symbols, which have developed since creation. They specifically (the ones we know well) are guidelines not absolutes. Which are by definition generalization of a meaning, which is both very specific and very generalized. An example in respect to how this can be defined is with regards to the molecular structure of an object in respect to function."

Huh?

I gather that the first part is you saying "words cannot describe what you need to know specifically." I don't have a clue as to what that example means, nor do I understand how to relate your paragraph to my question.

"The Tao is a circle, which is and aspect of a sphere, which is an aspect of what lies beyond the sphere, and what can be defined as beyond that.... Ad infinitum."

I thought, from previous posts, that the Tao was without boundary, therefore infinite. If this is so, how is the Tao part of an infinite array of systems?

"Each term representing a structure which is both specific and generalized in relation to defining what is before and after."

I'm not following.

"Consider that the entirety of curved space-time is actually represented in what we normally acknowledge as reality."

But this is just one small part of the Tao... so how does this tie in?


"consider that what we accept as the differentiation of our physical structure is in reality, representative of space-time curvature."

ok... so the universe is shaped like a human?

"This presenting that space-time is curved equally and is so represented, not just on a cosmological scale but also on a quantum scale. We define ourselves as being made entirely of flesh but at the same time a factual conclusion is that our bodies are made entirely of subatomic particles.

I'm following this one... where's it going?

"Archive is that aspect to of us which is alive and aware of reality, from the perspective Presented just above, with regards to the latter."

So is this archive individual, or does it have a direct line to "infinite knowledge" (God).


"In defining the Holy Trinity in this way pertains to a realm in which, the emotions we feels exist as concrete from the context of the existence of the Holy Trinity as one. Will be more than happy to address the Tao in this context, but in respect to this response. With relation to what has been offered in this post how does this quantify for you as an answer."

I'm still confused.

"My alternative response is that to God, feelings are what pay the bills"

Because you use psychology?

Let's not go on just yet... I think I just hit a tree, head first. Maybe it's the tree of knowledge and I just don't know it



posted on Mar, 12 2003 @ 01:53 PM
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In relation to our conversation to date we have discussed a more specific definition in respect to "crawling before you can walk".

This with respect to Bells Theorem and the ability of
sub-atomic particles to react instantaneously despite distance.

The matter that makes up the human form is not immune from this effect, though it is not generally accepted as perceivable. This inherent aspect of matter brings up the question of what effect does patterned thought, actions and activities have on matter as a whole (this in respect to us).

Furthermore it pertains to a physical component of human existence (no different than how we define appendages or senses) which while not readily visible. Does exist and presents a vehicle for instantaneous communion with everything in this universe, created at the same time.

Consider the more common manners the soul is defined, this in respect to not an organ but a functional equivalent to the human form. Innate to the soul are the capacities to perceive and interact and well the ability. To overcome many of the issues about reality we accept as unreachable in our present tate.Chi therefore can be defined in this context, as the ability, which allows access to inherent capacities, which can be best, defined as dormant.

As such the limited manner in which I presented this response was so as not to repeat information I had already provided. Admitedly I did not specifically relate to the Chi (I did however include a phrase, which was presented then and defined in detail).



I gather that the first part is you saying "words cannot describe what you need to know specifically." I don't have a clue as to what that example means, nor do I understand how to relate your paragraph to my question.


As well we have discussed the issue of the brain/mind and how symbols of meaning which developed over time (evolution for example) are not translatable in respect to words, an example being thoughts related to emotions. When presented with a request to define an emotion what is often regarded are experiences.



I thought, from previous posts, that the Tao was without boundary, therefore infinite. If this is so,
how is the Tao part of an infinite array of systems?


It would probably depend upon if you are considering infinity from the context of a wave or from the context
of finite but boundless. In respect to that we have discussed the matter before.



Each term representing a structure which is both specific and generalized in relation to defining what
is before and after."


Same as in my prior response but to elaborate further in respect to what has been presented in this post so far. A two dimensional form does pertain to it having a third dimension of we acknowledge it is real. If it is real then it has a temporal existence (4th dimension) and so on. I define the human form as infinite much because of this issue.



But this is just one small part of the Tao... so how does this tie in? ok... so the universe is shaped like a human? I'm following this one... where's it going?


Often times a way to define space-time curvature is to say we have the ability to observe 4 dimensions of space and time and the others our curved out of our ability to perceive. My point is one of how that curvature is defined these in terms of a curvature, which is Omni-present, equal for all points in space and time. This is akin to saying that for instance, if reality is visualized. With all the differences inherent in looking at it from the context of say 8 dimensions (as in an image). One would be looking at reality from the context of the world of quarks. Conversely the reality and fundamental rules which allow quarks to interact the way they do (this including issues for instance of time reversal) is reality in 8 dimensions.

If memory serves we have discussed this as well before and I do not really mind re-discussing as it has been a while and this is not at all an easy subject. Would ask that you do indulge the nuances with respect to how I present it




I'm still confused.


A standard Shamanic response to this would be "Because you want to learn about the sky but have not yet understood the roots of the trees".


In respect to the Paragraph for which this most recent quote pertains to it presents that with respect to how God can be defined, Emotions are not at all subjective. They relate to substance this being the substance and form of God. To say that 'God is Love" is then no different than to say a table is made of wood. From the context of higher states of being, which by definition. Act to allow the visualization of more dimensions than we are capable of visualizing/experiencing as readily observable.

Emotions are therefore described in this context (i.e...Love) as primary in respect to cause and effect (i.e....creation). To an extent that if one were to visualize creation as a whole (all dimensions) and as well oneself in that context. One would have with respect to a response to the question, what is love. Visualization rather than a set of stories relatable to what one has experienced with regards to this feeling.



Let's not go on just yet... I think I just hit a tree, head first. Maybe it's the tree of knowledge and I just don't know it.


I agree Protector in preparing this very text I find myself wanting to say much more.

Actually this is about Life


What are your thoughts?





[Edited on 12-3-2003 by Toltec]



posted on Mar, 14 2003 @ 05:27 PM
link   
This link applies specifically to Tai Ch'i, It is a part of an internet book which can be accessed at the site.

www.consciousevolution.com...



posted on Mar, 17 2003 @ 06:13 PM
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"This is your mind on the Tao"

Can I get a visual
.

"crawling before you can walk".

Most children try to run before they can walk... that way they keep their balance better with their legs constantly in motion.

"Bell's Theorem...sub-atomic particles to react instantaneously despite distance."

Yes, I remember it now.

"The matter that makes up the human form is not immune from this effect, though it is not generally accepted as perceivable.

I read that site on Tai Chi that you gave in your last post. It said that the human form is just an extention of Chi (solidified, if you will). I find that interesting.

"what effect does patterned thought, actions and activities have on matter as a whole (this in respect to us)"

I'm not sure what you mean by patterned thought.

"appendages or senses) which while not readily visible. Does exist and presents a vehicle for instantaneous communion with everything in this universe, created at the same time."

I see why you are applying Bell's Theorem now. I'm not sure that Bell's Theorem is the best way to explain the phenomena, but it is interesting.

"Chi therefore can be defined in this context, as the ability, which allows access to inherent capacities, which can be best, defined as dormant."

Interesting.

"It would probably depend upon if you are considering infinity from the context of a wave or from the context
of finite but boundless. In respect to that we have discussed the matter before."

I still need to finish rereading this.

"A two dimensional form does pertain to it having a third dimension of we acknowledge it is real."

How does one add 3-d information to a 2-d form?

"My point is one of how that curvature is defined these in terms of a curvature, which is Omni-present, equal for all points in space and time. One would be looking at reality from the context of the world of quarks."

How are quarks curved?

"A standard Shamanic response to this would be "Because you want to learn about the sky but have not yet understood the roots of the trees"."

Ummm... ok? That's a very odd relativistic relationship. Care to elaborate?

"Emotions are not at all subjective."

Not at all? I believe they are. The emotion itself may be the same, but the context which that emotion is used can vary. On the same token, emotion can even be confusing. I have had different levels of emotional "love" (used loosely) for all of my ex-girlfriends. Most of the experiences varied from girlfriend to girlfriend. My definition for each instance of love (at whatever minute level) is still different for each of them. Therefore, I can hardly say that other people experience the same emotions that I do, when even my emotions are not consistent.

"They relate to substance this being the substance and form of God."

Overflowing love, yes.

"To say that 'God is Love" is then no different than to say a table is made of wood."

So I can throw a tablecloth on God and eat right off of Him? Cool. It is still hard for me to transfer emotion to physical form.

"allow the visualization of more dimensions than we are capable of visualizing/experiencing as readily observable."

Sounds funky. So life is a giant hide-and-go-seek game with the higher level beings?

"(i.e...Love) ... cause and effect (i.e....creation)."

Interesting. Sex causes creation (w or w/o love) so where does the flaw come in? To say that God had sex with the universe would probably not be a good way to describe creation. My jury is still out on this one.

"if one were to visualize creation as a whole (all dimensions) and as well oneself ... what is love. Visualization rather than a set of stories relatable to what one has experienced with regards to this feeling."

I think we have discussed this idea. Again, it is hard to say that there is a concrete definition of love, but perhaps this is what the Tao is trying to say about the un-named Tao. I'm still confused on a personal level
.


---------

As a side note, I was visualizing the development of a child. I realised that a fetus looks like a pre-sprout as it develops inside of the seed. This realization brought a wild sense of understanding of natural development. I was reminded of the movie "Ferngully: The Last Rainforest." The Great Fairy Woman said that all of life exists within a single seed and that others needed to "make it grow." I used to be a rainforest buff when I was in the 4th grade. That was long, long ago, but I still remember my interestings in the rainforest. Maybe it was this relationship (unknown at the time) that made me so passionate about it.

Well, that's all for now. Tell me what ya think.



posted on Mar, 20 2003 @ 09:43 PM
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I'm not sure what you mean by patterned thought.


The manner in which human thought is organized as opposed to say other life forms which specifically
Are observably less apt at complex communication, social organization and the application of technology
to an extent we have developed it.



How does one add 3-d information to a 2-d form?



Very carefully 



How are quarks curved?


What I am implying is that the aspects of Quarks, which are not obvious. To our inherent capacity to observe are portraying the same inherent qualities often referred to when discussing how curved space-
time is represented. For me this is more than just an analogy, it presents a perspective. In which dimensions
outside of the four we are accustomed to, may in fact be represented. Quarks are an aspect of human structure but it is also apparent that their ability to interact with each other goes far beyond what we accepts
in everyday life as real.



Not at all? I believe they are. The emotion itself may be the same, but the context which that emotion is used can vary. On the same token, emotion can even be confusing. I have had different levels of emotional "love" (used loosely) for all of my ex-girlfriends. Most of the experiences varied from girlfriend to girlfriend. My definition for each instance of love (at whatever minute level) is still different for each of them. Therefore, I can hardly say that other people experience the same emotions that I do, when even my emotions are not consistent.


Let begin in relation to the context that statement was presentedÖ

In respect to the Paragraph for which this most recent quote pertains to it presents that with respect to how God can be defined, Emotions are not at all subjective. They relate to substance this being the substance and form of God.

This does not mean God is made of quarks but rather that an aspect to what can be applicable to the
Structure of God is in respect to those elements of reality, which to us are not readily visible. The in reference to that element of reality, which presents, that matter has despite distance. The ability to
communicate with other matter information as to its condition, instantaneously. When we sit back
and consider the nature of this phenomenon with respect to our day to day lives. There is a tendency to
regard such issues as inherently subjective and by far prior to the discovery that this phenomenon is
inherently a fact of reality more so.

Human evolution could potentially be defined as an event, which causes consciousness to in time reflect to a greater and greater degree, the realities of its structure (i.e. matter). With the fact that emotions are the most recent development in that evolution. A conclusion can be drawn, one which offers the idea that
emotions are not in fact based upon merely subjective connotations. Rather they are an inherent aspect
of the matrix and a part of what makes matter present itself as solid. Taken this from the standpoint
emotions existed before human beings (as we understand them) walked the earth We have evolved to have them because they are fundamental to structure.

Yes this subject can be very confusing and of course we can continue dissecting it. But at the same time it would be prudent to continue addressing the Tao Te Change as it is relevant to this conversation.



To speak little is natural.
Therefore a gale does not blow a whole morning
Nor does a downpour last a whole day.
Who does these things? Heaven and Earth.
If even Heaven and Earth cannot force perfect continuity
How can people expect to?

Therefore there is such a thing as aligning one's actions with the Tao.
If you accord with the Tao you become one with it.
If you accord with virtue you become one with it.
If you accord with loss you become one with it.

The Tao accepts this accordance gladly.
Virtue accepts this accordance gladly.
Loss also accepts accordance gladly.

If you are untrustworthy, people will not trust you.


What are your thoughts?


[Edited on 21-3-2003 by Toltec]



posted on Mar, 22 2003 @ 04:19 PM
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"How does one add 3-d information to a 2-d form?

'Very carefully'"

Sounds like the old game "Operation." Still, this does interest me. The only way to understand the next diminsion is to understand how the others are mathematically tied together... I'll think on it.

"...a perspective. In which dimensions outside of the four we are accustomed to, may in fact be represented. Quarks are an aspect of human structure but it is also apparent that their ability to interact with each other goes far beyond what we accept in everyday life as real."




"This does not mean God is made of quarks but rather that an aspect to what can be applicable to the Structure of God is in respect to those elements of reality..."

So what quarks are made of, or what they represent, relate to the structural form of God.

"This in reference to that element of reality... that matter has despite distance."

A connective force of instant communication, because there is no distance between connected objects.

"When we sit back and consider the nature of this phenomenon with respect to our day to day lives there is a tendency to regard such issues as inherently subjective... [yet are real]"

So you are relating issues of emotion with issues regarding communication (the physics of). Interesting. So the movement of emotion is equal to the varying waves of communication. Hmmm.

"Human evolution could potentially be defined as an event, which causes consciousness to in time reflect to a greater and greater degree, the realities of its structure (i.e. matter)."

That's understandable. The ideas we are studying in Philo of Religion are attempts of God to understand Himself... as well as for us to understand ourselves. If God never had a physical form, there is no way for God to truly understand himself in a physical aspect... therefore the universe was created (from His love) so that he could understand both himself and allow us to understand ourselves.

This also relates to qualities. If you take away all qualities of an object, that object no longer exists. To exist, in itself, is not a quality and therefore not real. Think of it in terms of "soul slaying." If a soul is plastered to the walls of the universe for trillions of years and cannot understand itself, it is the equalivalent to being the walls of the universe. If something has no qualities of its own, then "it" is not "itself," but merely something else.

Similarly, trees have rings that represent each year that it was alive. If a soul was the equivalent of a ring, it would merely be part of the wood, although separate, it really has NO outstanding defining characterists; therefore, a single ring is of no real importance. If you have a notch in the wood, however, the notch stands out as a defining characterist in the development of the tree, so while both the ring and the notch are a part of the wood, only a notch shows individual characteristics.

I'm not sure what my analogy has to do with anything, but it sounds convincing in my head. I'm attempting to define existence as a unique set of events that separate the thought of "empty, nothingness (no uniqueness or existence of self/entity)" compared to "self-realization, self-knowledge, group consciousness, and defined 'single vs whole'." Anything by itself, surrounded by nothing, is nothing. But when that same "thing" surrounds itself with "full nothingness," the "nothing" is no longer "real," because "something" now negates the existence of "nothing." Nothing can only exist without something being present. Since something is present, nothing does not really exist. Therefore, the Tao is everywhere and God is everywhere.

I'm reminded of "The Neverending Story." "The Nothing" swallows existence because people stop believing, dreaming, creating, and imagining. My addition is, if "something" were to forget itself, then it would once again become nothing. So if "matter" does not attempt to find its higher purpose, it will be re-integrated with the fabric of the universe, effectively becoming "nothing" in itself.

Interesting.

"With the fact that emotions are the most recent development in that evolution."

So emotions, being a type of communication, send unique signals of individual of "self." In understanding itself, "matter" uses emotions to vibrate a personal communication of its unique viewpoint.

Again, interesting.

"A conclusion can be drawn, one which offers the idea that emotions are not in fact based upon merely subjective connotations. Rather they are an inherent aspect of the matrix and a part of what makes matter present itself as solid."

But does that assume that communication is solid? I suppose it is. If you look at a desk... you aren't looking at the atoms, you are looking at a shadow of their movement. This shadow is actually a display of energy (communication in a raw form) that propels the atomic components. So, "knocking on wood" is applying force to the shadows (energy fields) of atoms, causing them to vibrate in patterns (that result in the applications of force).

On a martial arts level, understanding how this force works can help you to better understand how to break the wood, without breaking your hand. Using both the initial response of the blow (hammer-fist strike) and the feed back response (wood exerting force on the hand), which is the returning communication of the wood (or "REaction"), one can harmonize motion (communication) with other objects' harmony. If one can communication (on a peaceful level) with the object (emotional vibration), one can not only make their hand harder, but also make the wood softer. ... actually making this happen is the trick... but I think I may won half the battle at least.

"Taking this from the standpoint that emotions existed before human beings (as we understand them) walked the earth, we have evolved to have them because they are fundamental to structure."

Which now makes sense.

"Yes this subject can be very confusing and of course we can continue dissecting it. But at the same time it would be prudent to continue addressing the Tao Te Change as it is relevant to this conversation."

Maybe I just saved us the trouble of "dissection."


"To speak little is natural.
Therefore a gale does not blow a whole morning
Nor does a downpour last a whole day."

I'm not sure if I can draw a unique meaning from this. Maybe this is a sort of "conservation of energy" concept.

"Who does these things? Heaven and Earth.
If even Heaven and Earth cannot force perfect continuity
How can people expect to?"

My book actually refers to the "continuity" as "eternity." If Heaven and Earth don't make things last eternally, why would man want them to. This seems like a way of making the idea of change positive (good). Don't spend your life doing the same thing over and over. Do not stagnate. Move on. Action and reaction. Move and be still. Perhaps this refers to the "flow" of life. High tides vs low tides. Rain vs sun. Dark vs night. Each should have balance. There is probably more, but it isn't coming to me.


"Therefore there is such a thing as aligning one's actions with the Tao."

Again, balance. Yin and Yang. The Wheel of Karma.

"If you accord with the Tao you become one with it.
If you accord with virtue you become one with it.
If you accord with loss you become one with it."

Seems straight forward.

"The Tao accepts this accordance gladly.
Virtue accepts this accordance gladly.
Loss also accepts accordance gladly."

They balance with "that which is." A personal choice is accepted by all fates.

"If you are untrustworthy, people will not trust you."

My translation has, "He who does not trust enough, Will not be trusted."

This is "give and receive." Yield to force, apply force when they yield. If people want trust, give them a fair amount and they will return that. This also reminds me of Karma, where a good deed will be returned with a good deed (and vice verse).

Any comments?



posted on Mar, 24 2003 @ 07:55 PM
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Sounds like the old game "Operation." Still, this does interest me. The only way to understand the next dimension is to understand how the others are mathematically tied together... I'll think on it.


Will be interested in your conclusions




So what quarks are made of, or what they represent, relate to the structural form of God. "This in reference to that element of reality... that matter has despite distance." A connective force of instant communication because there is no distance between connected objects.


Yes and furthermore God is defined as an aspect of everything in respect to this Issue. Am not trying to claim that this is the definitive aspect of everything that God is but rather that is a part.



So you are relating issues of emotion with issues regarding communication (the physics of). Interesting. So the movement of emotion is equal to the varying waves of communication. Hmmm.


No the capacity of feel emotions has evolved in man because it is an aspect of matter. What we have discovered to date in respect to physics presents the fact that instantaneous communication is valid. With respect to our conversation to date instantaneous communication on the scale, we know to date. Would be a prerequisite for the existence of such awareness known as God.

I submit that beyond such capacity to communicate there is more.



That's understandable. The ideas we are studying in Philo of Religion are attempts of God to understand Himself... as well as for us to understand ourselves. If God never had a physical form, there is no way for God to truly understand himself in a physical aspect... therefore the universe was created (from His love) so that he could understand both himself and allow us to understand ourselves.


Here your presenting that God may have a limitation (correct me if I am wrong) my tendency is to consider what was presented prior by me in respect to the
perfection and imperfection (the infinite and finite).



Similarly, trees have rings that represent each year that it was alive. If a soul was the equivalent of a ring, it would merely be part of the wood, although separate, it really has NO outstanding defining characteristics; therefore, a single ring is of no real importance. If you have a notch in the wood, however, the notch stands out as a defining characteristic in the development of the tree, so while both the ring and the notch are a part of the wood, only a notch shows individual characteristics.


Keep in mind that the Tao in respect to defining creation and those elements within it regard all as interconnected. As such those aspects of the human form which are related to the interconnectivity inherent in matter can be understood as an aspect of the soul.



Since something is present, nothing does really exist. Therefore, the Tao is everywhere and God is everywhere.


Nothing is something.



So if "matter" does not attempt to find its higher purpose, it will be re-integrated with the fabric of the universe, effectively becoming "nothing" in itself.


Impressive and from something that was taught to me a very long time ago (in respect to consciousness) a definition for hell.



So emotions, being a type of communication, send unique signals of individual of "self." In understanding itself, "matter" uses emotions to vibrate a personal communication of its unique viewpoint.


Can you elaborate on your point?



Maybe I just saved us the trouble of "dissection."


The four paragraphs which preceded this does in fact establish that which is in quotation above




"To speak little is natural.
Therefore a gale does not blow a whole morning
Nor does a downpour last a whole day."


It talks about nature and offers advice in respect to paralleling it in regards to ones behavior.



"Who does these things? Heaven and Earth.
If even Heaven and Earth cannot force perfect continuity
How can people expect to?"

My book actually refers to the "continuity" as "eternity." If Heaven and Earth don't make things last eternally, why would man want them to. This seems like a way of making the idea of change positive (good). Don't spend your life doing the same thing over and over. Do not stagnate. Move on. Action and reaction. Move and be still. Perhaps this refers to the "flow" of life. High tides vs low tides. Rain vs sun. Dark vs night. Each should have balance. There is probably more, but it isn't coming to me.


When you think about defensive and offensive strategies with respect to martial arts many of the techniques do present the movements of animals, as a basis for there creation. What is being presented here is that the earth and heaven are as well living things. And as such the movements we observe have equal validity in respect to understanding not only methods of defense and offence, but also the Tao.



"Therefore there is such a thing as aligning one's actions with the Tao."
Again, balance. Yin and Yang. The Wheel of Karma.


Yes


My translation has, "He who does not trust enough, Will not be trusted."

This is "give and receive." Yield to force; apply force when they yield. If people want trust, give them a fair amount and they will return that. This also reminds me of Karma, where a good deed will be returned with a good deed (and vice verse).


Exactly but again realize that nature presents an example which is subtle but pervasive.

What are your thoughts?



posted on Apr, 4 2003 @ 08:58 PM
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"Will be interested in your conclusions [on tying diminsions together]"

Without specific mathematics, I have tried to mentally break down diminsional influence. The in order to travel a distance, one must be able to travel halfway, and half of that, and half of that, and half of that, to infinity. Integration solves this problem by stating that an entire area or volume can be span mathematically, but you are still travelling (virtually) an infinite distance between any two points, depending on your scale of relative measurement. So in essence, a line is a group of dots melded together with zero space in between. A plane is a group of dots (lines) stacked with no space between. A 3-d object is a group of planes stacked with no space. Time, as a whole, is the integrated movement of an object through established stages of space. The "present" is a way to establish a 3-d object at a single point, such as taking a "dx strip" on an integration. Assuming this is all true, we (humans) are infinitely dense, mathematically.

The problem comes down to the subatomic level where there is massive amounts of space (probably filled with energy). This removes the ability to integrate with the certainty that an object is completely full. Thus, no human embodies the actual basis for mathematical definitions of a plane or 3-d object, because we are loose, distortions of such a creation... a half-existence, if you will. If mathematics still works with such high accuracy for half-definitions, the rules must still hold on lower and/or higher levels. So energy must either be the equivalent of mass, as well as the space between 'not' being "empty," and/or mass is a biproduct of space and the problem is not a line, plane, or 3-d object, but density of space itself. The shape or mathematics of that density of space is what elludes me at this point.

I am either on the wrong track, or just need some more time to ponder it. Despite the information on black holes distorting spacetime, the spacetime mentioned is always considered to be a "plane," but how do you get a 3-d plane... noting that a plane is 2-d, not 3-d? Again, this could be a matter of density. This would mean that from the perspective of a plane in the area surrounding a black hole, the volume is condensed in a 3-d motion, using a 2-d model for a single aspect. The ability to picture this is quite difficult... I'd almost argue that our perspective is still flawed by considering spacetime a 2-d plane.



"I submit that beyond such capacity to communicate there is more [emotions as aspects of matter and relation to God and instantaneous communication]."

So how does one communicate emotions to matter and vice verse? If this is a good beginning, I wish to know where to begin
.


"Here your presenting that God may have a limitation (correct me if I am wrong) my tendency is to consider what was presented prior by me in respect to the perfection and imperfection (the infinite and finite)."

It may be a limitation to say that God "must create" to understand Himself, but then why would a man create tools, art, 'magic,' architecture, science... if it would not help him to understand his nature (to create). If a creator does not create, then he/she is going to suppress part of his/her soul. Thus if God does not create, He is suppressing His omnipotence. Conversely, if God does not create, that does not necessarily mean He is not omnipotent... just lazy, perhaps. The aspect of potential and kinetic energy could be applied here. Potential energy is not useless, because of what it can become in time, but kinetic energy is certainly useful in the present moment.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since something is present, nothing does really exist. Therefore, the Tao is everywhere and God is everywhere.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Nothing is something.


Typo. I meant, "nothing does[n't] really exist"

...thus, nothing is something and something is a part of everything (The Whole).


"Impressive and from something that was taught to me a very long time ago (in respect to consciousness) a definition for hell."

Interesting. I'd assume higher conscious thought would be removed if matter was removed/reintegrated with the universe. If this is the case, Hell could not be experienced, except as a part of life (when mislead)... on the other hand, if a soul is without a form, it could not express itself, going back to the idea above (about creators creating), and thus would be restricted (enslaved) by the universe.

Hmm... side note... I just thought of an idea for conservation of potential mass/energy. I'll try to write something on it soon.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So emotions, being a type of communication, send unique signals of individual of "self." In understanding itself, "matter" uses emotions to vibrate a personal communication of its unique viewpoint.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you elaborate on your point?


Well, if all creations have a specific viewpoint, it must communicate that viewpoint to those around it, so that others may understand. It is like the saying, you must walk a mile in someone else's shoes to understand them. Well, to communicate that, matter vibrates at unique frequencies in order to display "emotion," aka. a particular understanding of their viewpoint. Let's say that I'm at a student protestor. I yell out, "Stop the war!," then others know my emotional viewpoint and respond with cheers or boos. Matter does the same thing, but with vibrational frequencies and varied energy levels of electron clouds, magnetic alignment, overall charge, and atomic weight. Thus, when certain particles collide or come within a respectable distance, a reaction may or may not occur by their viewpoints (emotions) or communication with one another. Respectively, you could say that fusing is Love, while fission is War... on an emotional scale at the atomic level.

I should note that I am unsure of how instantaneous communication would fit into this model, at present.



"When you think about defensive and offensive strategies with respect to martial arts many of the techniques do present the movements of animals, as a basis for there creation. What is being presented here is that the earth and heaven are as well living things. And as such the movements we observe have equal validity in respect to understanding not only methods of defense and offence, but also the Tao."

I like my answer better
.


"Exactly but again realize that nature presents an example which is subtle but pervasive."

Could you elaborate?



posted on Apr, 10 2003 @ 03:45 PM
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Without specific mathematics, I have tried to mentally break down dimensional influence. The in order to travel a distance, one must be able to travel halfway, and half of that, and half of that, and half of that, to infinity. Integration solves this problem by stating that an entire area or volume can be span mathematically, but you are still travelling (virtually) an infinite distance between any two points, depending on your scale of relative measurement. So in essence, a line is a group of dots melded together with zero space in between. A plane is a group of dots (lines) stacked with no space between. A 3-d object is a group of planes stacked with no space. Time, as a whole, is the integrated movement of an object through established stages of space. The "present" is a way to establish a 3-d object at a single point, such as taking a "dx strip" on integration. Assuming this is all true, we (humans) are infinitely dense, mathematically.


You are presenting calculus, whose assesement presents the potential conclusion. That with respects
to the difference between 2d to 3d, either folded space or some variant. With regards to what is known at present is responsible for the existence we accept as real. This is an interesting point, as the alternative would pertain to reality as an illusion beyond 2d.

To settle upon such a theory (illusion beyond 2d) is at best archaic and not realistic, given human experience.




So how does one communicate emotions to matter and vice verse? If this is a good beginning, I wish to know where to begin.


Its to say we feel because the Universe feels, we see because the Universe sees and so on our existence is a translation and work in progress. Alternative to that is our capacity to be aware is inherently a reflection of a reality, which is inherently aware.

As we evolve that reflection becomes clearer and better defined.

I hope that answers your question.



Potential energy is not useless, because of what it can become in time, but kinetic energy is certainly useful in the present moment.


I can live with that.



I should note that I am unsure of how instantaneous communication would fit into this model, at present.


If the Universe is aware (we discussed before) that instantaneous communication is possible makes
for an efficient system, from the context of concluding the universe can think and therefore experience awareness.



Could you elaborate?


From the standpoint of the following context we were addressing the processes of nature are for the most part very subtle but like the creation of the Grand Canyon pervasive (as an example)

Lets continue


These in the past have attained wholeness:

Heaven attains wholeness with its clarity;
The Earth attains wholeness with its firmness;
The Spirit attains wholeness with its transcendence;
The Valley attain wholeness when filled;
The Myriad Things attain wholeness in life;
The Ruler attains wholeness in the correct governance of the people.

In effecting this:
If Heaven lacked clarity it would be divided;
If the Earth lacked firmness it would fly away;
If the spirit lacked transcendence it would be exhausted;
If the valley lacked fullness it would be depleted;
If the myriad things lacked life they would vanish.
If the ruler lacks nobility and loftiness he will be tripped up.

Hence
Nobility has lowliness as its root
The High has the Low as its base.
Thus the kings call themselves "the orphan, the lowly, the unworthy."

Is this not taking lowliness as the fundamental? Isn't it?



posted on Apr, 10 2003 @ 10:16 PM
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"You are presenting calculus, whose assesement presents the potential conclusion."

More like a logical basis to compare infinities within my scenario.

"That with respects to the difference between 2d to 3d, either folded space or some variant."

The respects of dimensions are somewhat relative. 2d visuals are the building blocks for those things that are 3d, but 3d cannot be seen when only analyzing 2d information. You should not ask a blind man what color he sees after he feels an object. See my comparison? *sorry for the punn* The vital details and complete picture are lost, so each level must be assessed to their fullest potential.... 3d, 2d, 1d, time, and each branch of physical science (and maybe some bioscience as well).

"This is an interesting point, as the alternative would pertain to reality as an illusion beyond 2d."

Well, an illusion existing is still possible. If infinite density still exists on some level, we are composed of infinite components. There are various sizes of infinity and infinities vary with certain dimensions... again, this is why you want to understand the building blocks for dimensions. An illusion can be created at the zero dimension and would propogate throughout the others (being their (1d, 2d, 3d) basic building block). Regardless of whether this is the Matrix or not, I'm still interested in finding out how it works.

"To settle upon such a theory (illusion beyond 2d) is at best archaic and not realistic, given human experience."

True. I know a physicist (not personally) who believes time and depth do not exist. I believe this is like denying that you are staring at a computer screen. You can come up with excuses, but you are probably missing obvious factors. On the other hand, I suppose anything is technically possible at this point.



-----------------------
So how does one communicate emotions to matter and vice verse? If this is a good beginning, I wish to know where to begin.
-----------------------

Its to say we feel because the Universe feels, we see because the Universe sees and so on our existence is a translation and work in progress.


That is a very interesting way to interpret things, but I'm not sure if this covers the whole picture, either. I think of it along the lines of, you exist (in this body)because the universe exists, you are expressed physically because the universe expresses itself physically, etc. Assuming that our maximum ability to evolve is related to that of the universe's ability to evolve seems somewhat limiting to the "infinite" potential of the individual.

An example would be to say that the universe creates a star (assuming this is the first major step beyond heated gases). You would not be able to have the knowledge of a blackhole until that star had collapsed into one. Basically, you cannot discover future potentials before the universe experiences them. I'm not sure that I would buy that methodology, being heavy into mathematics.

"Alternative to that is our capacity to be aware is inherently a reflection of a reality, which is inherently aware."

That's a brain twister. Our awareness comes from the universe, yes... but is our universal awareness only the 5 senses? To be aware is basically to understand that you, yourself, exist. Just because I know I exist doesn't mean I know how my endocrine system works. See my initial problems with that statement?

"As we evolve that reflection becomes clearer and better defined."

So are we an attempt of the universe to understand itself? That is not without merit and has been discussed in philosophical circles for probably centuries. Maybe it is a matter of evolving beyond our macro-external vessel (the universe). Of course, the idea is as relevant as saying that one of your blood cells has created a spaceship that is going to fly out of your ear any second now... talk about Chaos theory.



----------------------------
I should note that I am unsure of how instantaneous communication would fit into this model, at present.
----------------------------

If the Universe is aware (we discussed before) that instantaneous communication is possible makes
for an efficient system, from the context of concluding the universe can think and therefore experience awareness.


Fair enough, but that still doesn't put a face to the physics. The body has extremely complex protein strands, but that doesn't mean I understand how they wrap together. The point of this thought experiment was to compare to some sort of real-life basis in physics, math, or whacky theory. Assuming the answer is in the universe's awareness is assuming that the issue is not in my hands. I am currently looking at oddities among certain types of fluids to see if I can find the answer.

"From the standpoint of the following context we were addressing the processes of nature are for the most part very subtle but like the creation of the Grand Canyon pervasive (as an example)"

Interesting analogy. The bad part is that I'll never live long enough to see another grand canyon form, so I need to get crack'n
.

From the Art of War??:

"These in the past have attained wholeness:

Heaven attains wholeness with its clarity;
The Earth attains wholeness with its firmness;
The Spirit attains wholeness with its transcendence;
The Valley attain wholeness when filled;
The Myriad Things attain wholeness in life;
The Ruler attains wholeness in the correct governance of the people. "

Knowledge, solidity, completion, wholeness(full), experience/exploring are all great things that one should strive for on a personal level.

"In effecting this:
If Heaven lacked clarity it would be divided;
If the Earth lacked firmness it would fly away;
If the spirit lacked transcendence it would be exhausted;
If the valley lacked fullness it would be depleted;
If the myriad things lacked life they would vanish.
If the ruler lacks nobility and loftiness he will be tripped up."

Lacking these things removes that wholeness and therefore one is needing by their own faults... it is a certainty in every aspect of the universe and beyond (yin vs yang).

"Hence
Nobility has lowliness as its root
The High has the Low as its base.
Thus the kings call themselves 'the orphan, the lowly, the unworthy.'"

Foundations are important... as was discussed earlier in this response. This, of course, applies to the dimensional level as well.

"Is this not taking lowliness as the fundamental? Isn't it?"

That is a good way to think of it. The bottom portions are the fundamental building blocks for the upper levels. Maybe this is why you always see young monks sweeping.

"In this way you can bring about great effect without burden.
Not desiring the rarity of gems
Or the manyness of grains of sand."

Give up both quantity and quality for the true substance of the universe (perhaps science/knowledge). Possessions will not fill the void where knowledge needs to be placed and those "wholenesses" above need to be addressed. When one becomes whole, it will not be so hard to weather a storm, just as a building with a strong foundation stands up to the storm.



posted on Apr, 13 2003 @ 07:23 PM
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I was just wondering if you wanted to say anything about reincarnation. I'm currently studying it in my philosophy of religion class and wanted to know if you had any odd opinions on the matter. I figure that reincarnation also has a place within this discussion, so why not add the topic now.



posted on Apr, 15 2003 @ 10:10 PM
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Assuming that our maximum ability to evolve is related to that of the universe's ability to evolve seems somewhat limiting to the "infinite" potential of the individual


Unless the Universe as we understand it is simply a point of origin and beyond that is for lack of a better word a reality which is “infinite.” Offering a conservative response, then for instance from the context of a Universe being “boundless”.



You should not ask a blind man what color he sees after he feels an object.


Yes that is true in respect to disabilities but when no such problem exist motivation is a factor as you have presented Biosience is an issue



That's a brain twister. Our awareness comes from the universe, yes... but is our universal awareness only the 5 senses?


I sincerely doubt that and would site the paranormal inclusive of religious experiences, which often reflect a capacity to interact beyond the five senses. Would further add that chi presents more concrete evidence of the ability to interact well out of the frame of normal experience.

My position is that we are evolving still and the manner we can observe today, as compared to how it may be at sometime in the future has the potential to be much more sophisticated in respect to the future. In respect to prophets many systems of belief (for example the Buddhist as well as American Indian systems).

Regard them as guides, which ease all of us in the right direction. an implication being that awareness is more than the sum totals which is defined in an individual.



Of course, the idea is as relevant as saying that one of your blood cells has created a spaceship that is going to fly out of your ear any second now... talk about Chaos theory


My presentation to date has been to suggest that the Universe has already evolved well beyond the point in which Man is necessitated. To be specific my impression is that the expansion of the Universe as we understand it, by in nature points to expansion upon all levels we at present can observe. With regards to this issue a theory has been postulated which offers the conclusion best described as Quantum expansion.

Would as a reuslt suggest that once a very long time ago what we today call a Universe. Was but a combination of protons and electrons (and in respect to the Neutron we have not yet turned that corner).


You will find that to an extent we have discussed this matter as well as has a link to the issue of quantum expansion been provided at this thread.



Lacking these things removes that wholeness and therefore one is needing by their own faults... it is a certainty in every aspect of the universe and beyond (yin Vs yang).


Look closely in respect to the term “Myriad” with regard to the Tao Te Ching but you are on the right track.



That is a good way to think of it. The bottom portions are the fundamental building blocks for the upper levels. Maybe this is why you always see young monks sweeping.


Agreed but as well no matter how sophisticated one feels one has achieved it is important to always remember

that one is still a part of the foundation.



Give up both quantity and quality for the true substance of the universe (perhaps cience/knowledge).

Possessions will not fill the void where knowledge needs to be placed and those "wholeness" above need to be addressed. When one becomes whole, it will not be so hard to weather a storm, just as a building with a strong foundation stands up to the storm.


Excellent Protector




I figure that reincarnation also has a place within this discussion, so why not add the topic now.



Ok lets begin with some ancient text



Holding to the Great Form
All pass away.
They pass away unharmed, resting in Great Peace.

It is for food and music that the passing traveler stops.

When the Tao appears from its opening
It is so subtle, it has no taste.
Look at it, you cannot see it.
Listen, you cannot hear it.
Use it

You cannot exhaust it


As well as a link…..

Tibetan Book of the Dead

[Edited on 15-4-2003 by Toltec]



posted on Apr, 28 2003 @ 04:21 PM
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"Would as a reuslt suggest that once a very long time ago what we today call a Universe. Was but a combination of protons and electrons (and in respect to the Neutron we have not yet turned that corner)."

I would be interested in what you think is responsible for the neutron, or neutral particles in general.

"Holding to the Great Form
All pass away.
They pass away unharmed, resting in Great Peace.

It is for food and music that the passing traveler stops."

Life is a break from the grind of immortality?

"When the Tao appears from its opening
It is so subtle, it has no taste.
Look at it, you cannot see it.
Listen, you cannot hear it.
Use it

You cannot exhaust it"

The idea of the singularity (what caused the big bang) would fit these qualities.


[Edited on 28-4-2003 by Protector]



posted on May, 5 2003 @ 09:33 PM
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I would be interested in what you think is responsible for the neutron, or neutral particles in general.


Potentially the origin though I feel 15 billion years is not enough time to make that possible. My impression is that the time line of reality is on a scale we have not yet invented numbers for. As well is its size a measurement beyond our conception, what we know today is not even a grain of sand perhaps it is though an atom.



Life is a break from the grind of immortality?


With this comment it is very possible you have presented what the phrase in its totality can be defined as, but not from the context of it being better or worst just different.

At this point would ask you to pick an aspect of the Tao Te Ching we have not covered and interpret as you see fit.



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