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School Massacres. Why?

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posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 06:27 AM
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Alrighty then...Bullying as a cause?Not a recent phenominom.

We've allseen the reports in the news this week, and in the past few years. School shootings. Some child, or adult, with a problem decides the only way to address said problem is to shoot everybody even remotely connected. As we've seen it isn't always a child that goes off the deep end.

Why? Does society bear some, or all responsibility? The parents? Do they own ultimate responsibility? The shooters? Are they just plain evil? Is there some deeper more nefariously sinister plot afoot? These are some of the questions that occured to me over the past few days as I looked further into it.

I must say, I really am not any more enlightened now then I was when I began looking into it. All that really changed was the realization that this sort of thing has happened for a looooong time...I came across references of this sort of thing dating back to Scotland in the Middle Ages.

I was, as a child, a victim of bullying. Tall, skinny, quiet, smarter than most of my contemporaries (modesty?), and not much of an athlete. In short, a geek, before there was such a term...I understand only too well the sometimes unholy desire to strike back at ones tormentors, or even ones who might not be involved except as witnesses. To the mind of a ten year old kid (me), everyone nearby was picking on me. Only too well, do I understand.

What I don't understand is what makes these people cross that line, the one I never crossed beyond learning, finally, to defend myself.

What can we do to prevent such occurances? Afterall, it does little good to initiate security after an event such as this. Kind of like locking the barn after all the horses have escaped.

Historically, this seems an all too frequent event to blame a certain style of culture or society. After all, society in the Middle Ages was much different than our own culture today. Any thoughts on this?

I suppose that my main purpose here is to ask the questions that many others have asked: Why? How?

Those are 3 links, not just one. Didn't space them.



[edit on 4-10-2006 by seagull]




posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 08:22 AM
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Bullying is indeed a major cause of lashing out at the world. I don't know why some people do and others don't, except for the fact that everyone has a different tolerance level, or is more or less sensitive, to being bullied.

The support systems that a person has outside of school are also a factor, I would guess. But I think that most schools minimize the impact of bullying. Bullying is a direct attack on a person's self-esteem and integrity as a human being. It should not be tolerated at all, imo. Schools are largely at fault, but not entirely.

And believe it or not, there are some parents who tolerate bullying, as long as their kid is not the one receiving it. They seem to think... I don't know what they think, to be honest.

Society also bears some responsibility. Attitudes that say a person needs to buck up and accept bullying as the way of the world are not the answer.



posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 11:22 AM
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How many of us have heard, "Boys will be Boys"

Or how about, "There just kids!"

Or lets try everyone's favorite, "Sticks and Stones..."

Whomever tagged the sticks and stones phrase was obviously never bulled in school. They are not just words, these comments made my school mates and really affect who we become in life. Alot of people are not able to overcome the people they become in grade school.

There is no one person or thing to blame when it comes to these tragedies. Bullies are a main contributor, along with the education system for not creating a stronger stance for bullies. The parents of the bully, the parents of the victim can be to blame. Not always, but certainly there are several scenarios when the trail can be traced back to these people.

It can be tough to say someone who was indirectly involved is to blame, but the fact remains if the parents had of dealt with the child who was knowlingly bullying another student, it is possible this could of been avoided.

When a child is bullied, they confide in noone and keep to themselves. It would be rare for the parents not to be aware of this, and through discussion the name of the bully would be uncovered. It is here and now that the parents of the bully would be contacted and would either deal with it or say, "Boys will be Boys!. Choosing not to deal with it, puts the blame on these parents.

Profiles for School Shootings

I do believe the shooters can for the most part fall into a profile. Very rarely is bullying not directly involved in the factors that pushed this child over the edge.



posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 07:16 PM
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I will propose the most outlandish conspiracy theory this thread will likely yield (even tho this thread doesn't really seem to be about conspiracy). We Americans have endured 3 school shootings in the span of one week. The world must think we're mad. Mad with gun wontonery. Let me assure any of you from outside our borders, this is not(!) a regular occurence; at least not the way it is now portrayed in the media.

This is all about shock value and exploitation.

That's the curious thing. There is nothing more headline-grabbing in America than the violent deaths or disappearances of our children.

At least until this week. This week (which really started Friday afternoon) was momentous, news-wise. First there was the beyond much-belated truth telling book "State of Denial" by Watergate superhero Bob Woodward. Then came Foleygate. Now ex-Florida Republican Congressman Mark Foley resigned in disgrace after cyber-horndogging hot, underage male pages.

It seems the GOP House of cards is about to collapse.. just five weeks from the midterm elections.

What if.. what if those heinous murders were something far more sinister? How could they be more abominable than they already are? What if I told you that the evil is more nuanced and deep-rooted than already imagined? How could that be?

My theory is that those school shootings could well be connected to Republican operatives seeking to obliterate and bury bad Iraq coverage, "State of Denial" and Foleygate. In each case, the predator/shooter has rounded kids up, blown them away mercilessly and then turned the gun on himself. No killer. No evidence. No prosecution. Such massive violence just out of the blue.

Normally, news like that would dominate the headlines. But not now. Not with this page sex-scandal going on. Its kind of amazing. Hopefully the media will cover it honestly and vigorously (for a change); and those responsible for allowing Foley access to those kids will held accountable - to the fullest measure.



[edit on 10/4/06 by EastCoastKid]



posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 07:46 PM
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That is an interesting thought.

Tracing incidents back to the true culprits would be quite the feat.

Members like yourself, and posts like that, one are the type to really open our minds.



posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 07:50 PM
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Originally posted by chissler
That is an interesting thought.

Tracing incidents back to the true culprits would be quite the feat.

Members like yourself, and posts like that, one are the type to really open our minds.


Thx Chissler. I hate to even suggest it; but it keeps nagging at me.

There are some very evil, powerful people out there who do things that we normal folks.. or somewhat normal folks (
) cannot even begin to imagine.



posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 09:16 PM
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Originally posted by EastCoastKid
My theory is that those school shootings could well be connected to Republican operatives seeking to obliterate and bury bad Iraq coverage, "State of Denial" and Foleygate. In each case, the predator/shooter has rounded kids up, blown them away mercilessly and then turned the gun on himself. No killer. No evidence. No prosecution. Such massive violence just out of the blue.


This is the Social Issues forum at PTS, not ATS. Here, we don't throw around words like theory wantonly. A theory is the product of testable hypotheses, which are statements of relationships between variables.

What you have posited in no way, shape, or form resembles a theory, unless you have some evidence to present, and has no place on Social Issues.

Here, we strive for a higher standard than petty, irresponsible accusations.



posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 09:22 PM
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I too am shocked at all the shootings in schools lately.What suprises me even more is not all the shooters are teens.The latest shooting was done by a man in his 30s.We live in very bad times and it seems to be getting worse.I look for all kids to be home schooled in the near future.It can all be done by computers and the internet.I have 3 small children,the oldest starts school next year.I am very worried



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 04:56 AM
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The most interesting aspect of this is the historical. I found that this sort of thing has happened well back into the past. Scotland in the Middle Ages was the earliest that I found (although that link no longer seems to work, mores the pity). What, if anything does this say about the societal aspect of this sort of event. Does society bear less responsibility than we think? As societies and culture have changed this sort of thing still occurs. Maybe instead of the society being the blame worthy, perhaps instead we should look at the climate of change within the culture...the Middle Ages were a time of great upheaval...as are the past decade or so in our own century. People left behind, or less able to adapt to the change, would seem more likely to react badly to things changing around them. Not saying this is the sole reason of course, but it may be a contributing factor.

"Boys will be Boys" God, I get so tired of hearing that as an excuse for bullies doing what they do. Having been on the recieving end of this, I can safely say it pisses the victim off. Attitude of the people who supposedly know best looms very large to my mind, an attitude of "boys will be boys" could lead to grave events, an attitude of "we'll put a stop to this sort of behaviour, right the F*** NOW" would go a long way towards stopping events before they go south. The laisse faire attitude of many school officials is a very large contributing factor, maybe even larger than the parents role, particularly in this age of both parents working, and latchkey kids.

Not to say parents are without fault...after all they've got the kids for a large portion of the time, and should notice changes in behaviour that could indicate something is troubling them.

What's to do? Teach the kids to defend themselves, not just physically, but verbally as well. A well placed word or two can work wonders. Of course, there's a lot to be said for a well placed kick to the groin, too. Both worked for me...
. But seriously, kids need to learn at an early age how to defend themselves in situations, and the best place to do that is on the playground at school. Not every lesson is learned in the classroom, maybe not even the most important ones...

In this era of schools being offensively PC, its the kids who are different who pay the price for their non conformity. That very non conformity is what leads them to seek nonconventional means of retaliation. Not to say its right, but it is understandable, at least to me.

That still leads back to one of my questions, what makes them cross that line that most don't cross, even in their wildest, most bloodsoaked fantasies. What makes a Dillon Kliebold do what he did? Evil? Just so angry, he snaps? A scream for attention? I've given this some thought, and I simply lack the expertise to form an opinion that makes any sense.



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 05:03 AM
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www.breitbart.com...

blame it on harry potter!!! and bring the bible back into the schools....that'll take care of it!!



of course, we could give every kid a computer, adapt our curriculum for online instruction and well, save alot of money (not to mention the kids would probably actually learn more)....that would solve the problem!!!



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 05:05 AM
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How do the adults factor into this? Are they merely adult versions of Dillon Kliebold? Or just evil?

The guy who did the Pennsylvania shootings was obviously a very troubled man, who, apparently, harbored a deepseated grudge for almost 20 years. What finally triggered him? What does this portend for the future? Is the age of enforced PCness creating more monsters like this? People who harbor such deepseated anger, and percieved injustices, and will do this sort of thing to address their misperceptions?

That is a scarey little scenario, isn't it? Hundreds, maybe thousands, of brainwashed angry maybe-killers out there. With no recourse to MK-Ultra, or other supersecret organizations required. Just a bunch of braindead teachers and school administrators without a jot of common sense between 'em.

I hope, no pray, I'm wrong...but it just seems all too plausible.



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 06:19 AM
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Originally posted by seagull
How do the adults factor into this? Are they merely adult versions of Dillon Kliebold? Or just evil?

The guy who did the Pennsylvania shootings was obviously a very troubled man, who, apparently, harbored a deepseated grudge for almost 20 years. What finally triggered him? What does this portend for the future? Is the age of enforced PCness creating more monsters like this? People who harbor such deepseated anger, and percieved injustices, and will do this sort of thing to address their misperceptions?

That is a scarey little scenario, isn't it? Hundreds, maybe thousands, of brainwashed angry maybe-killers out there. With no recourse to MK-Ultra, or other supersecret organizations required. Just a bunch of braindead teachers and school administrators without a jot of common sense between 'em.

I hope, no pray, I'm wrong...but it just seems all too plausible.


This is a valid point, and I want to add a bit to it.

There are, in my mind, two major aspects to this issue of School Violence. I grew up and went to school in a time when nothing like this ever occurred anywhere. Oh, trust me, we had our share of Bullys, but the thought of anything going beyond "picking", pushing, and a little extortion for lunch money, never occurred. Nobody shot or stabbed anybody, and any rumor of that was promptly dealt with, as were fights.

The first aspect is that we no longer have a System of Education in America. It has rather devolved into a system of indoctrination which abjectly fails to teach kids to Think, and just teaches them to Submit. The second aspect is the failure of the Spiritual Community to instill a foundation of positive and dynamic belief in it's following.

In the case of Columbine, you had 2 upper middle class kids of carreer parents, both with severe mental problems partially undiagnosed, both with a fixation on violence in all forms (News, TV, and Video Games), and both of whom were taking prescribed behavior modification drugs. I surmize that since these to kids were those of career parents, that they "learned to live" in Child Care facilities, and Home became a place they slept.

Kids these days have little self-discipline, and what is worse, parents who don't have a clue how to raise children. In recent years, I have yet to go to a resturant and NOT see at least two sets of kids running around all over the place and playing in the isles, or throwing some kind of tantrum. The parests are discussing news or something and not playing a lick of attention. These same people ar always the ones who hotly question authority when the teacher sends bad discipline messages home.

This last shooting at the Amish School is the oddest--a 32 year old man with the false idea that he abused his younger cousins--when he was 12. That is, aparently, a dilusion. The Durham shooting is a young man who is flat Nuts, and should have been institutionalized long ago--the same holds for the Columbine Shooting. Most of the other shooting involve shooters who suffer Mental Illness. Why are these kids in School or loose on the streets? Family Denial? Bad Medical Practice? Failure of the system to recognize potential problems? Lack of supervision? Pushing children toward excellance beyond their capability for it?

I don't know, but I think each is a factor in each case.



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 07:02 AM
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from my experience teachers, are involved as much as pupils. the teachers have access to things that are in social services today, that can destroy any ones life.

but the school shootings in america are definately to some sort of plan. i am just amazed there is not more shootings in schools in america.



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 11:28 AM
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I've given this much thought. I believe in some cases the children being bullied may indeed play a role. However, I don't believe it is the defining factor for outbursts of violence. Seagull, as you know I too was the target of bullies especially at Sager middle school and I remember all too well what you went through. So what causes some of us to handle bullying differently; could be that we were emotionally stronger. I believe that the shooters in these cases are mentally ill. The question is however, how do we spot them? In most cases loved ones noticed changes in behavior prior to the outbursts but attributed them to something else. Blaming parents isn't really very productive as their reactions to the changes are normal human reactions. None of us want to believe that our loved ones could possibly behave in such an evil manner.

I do believe that bullies should be stopped. Parents shouldn't refuse to take action when their child bullies another. Also, if your child is a victim of bullies you as the parent need to take action. When my child was assaulted by two of the schools football players I went to the school breathing fire and informed the principal that should this behavior against my child continue I would press charges against the offenders and file lawsuits against not only the parents but against the school and the school officials themselves. I also informed them that my child had my backing and would defend herself and certainly had the ability to do so. My child knew beyond any doubt that I supported her. That is important knowledge for the victim. I also called the offenders parents for all the good that did.

It is a sad fact bullying happens we need to address it strongly and also support the victim and ensure the victim has a positive outlet in our case it was horse 4-H. Parents must be involved in their child's life; I know it can be difficult but it needs to happen. I'm a single parent but I volunteered at school, 4-H and any other activity she did. Heck, I even learned to coach soccer but believe me if Seagull had been in town I would have tried to get him to do it. He was an excellent soccer player.

In some cases the bully also has needs that should be addressed; perhaps they have low self-esteem or the misguided belief that they have the "right" to treat people as they please. In cases where the bully continues to attack others perhaps they should be required to attend counseling and receive mental help. Also they should be required to make amends to the their victims.

Seagull, I believe you to be correct you were the target because you were different. Differences in schools aren't celebrated they simply cause the different kid to become the target.

As an aside Seagull was smarter then the others; he also player soccer instead of football and player the cello. All that equaled target.

[edit on 5-10-2006 by gallopinghordes]



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 03:10 PM
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I really don't think that the fact that parents are both working has much to do with it.....
there's we're plenty of kids when I was in school who also had both parents working, we never shot up any schools.

our attitudes towards children may be alittle different. when I was grown up, there were small towns, everyone knew who your momma was...and well, if you were spotted doing something you weren't susposed to be doing, the person KINDLY informed your parents, who KINDLY thanked them for their watching out for you....and you got heck!!!
maybe todays kids are so much different because we aren't as kind as our parents about things??

they had something on the news the other night about the drugs that are being used for depression and such....they gave the numbers but I just don't remember. the are hundreds of millions of people on these drugs in this country, and well, out of that number a percentage will develope mania...and well, according to what they said, there's a god aweful number of maniacs running around, like ticking time bombs....
that would be my guess as to what is going on.....we have way too many kids drugged with drugs we have really very little idea what the effects are with them....and those effects aren't good!!

but, to those of you who are so quick to blame it on mom and dad, and well, to the fact that they both have to work to be able to support them....um...do you support and increase in the minimum wage so they don't have to?? didn't think so.



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 03:31 PM
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Although I've never married and I don't have kids, but I'm going to say this anyway.

When we wonder what is making the kids and society so crazy, we need to look in the mirror. I am a deep believer in a sociological perspective. It is a useful tool, but ultimately society is defined by individual behavior. It is the collective result of individual behavior that defines sociological phenomena. Put more concisely, the relationship between society and the individual is both reflexive and reciprocal.

Few can argue that the family institution is in great shape, just as our marriage institution is not in great shape. That the children would begin to reflect this should not be difficult to understand.

However, we must be astute enough to realize that this week there have been two school shootings that do not necessarily reflect the effects of the dynamics of the family or marriage.

School shootings have been occurring often enough and for long enough for copycat phenomena to occur. That is, when some nut decides to act out his personal problems, choosing a school to do so may speak more about an individual nut's perception of the effect his acts may have by choosing a school to be the location of his crimes.


[edit on 2006/10/5 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 03:41 PM
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One might not discount the idea that copycats happen, however the track record of these things almost invariably indicates 1.) Psychiatry and its drug culture 2.) An Armed Forces connection in the family dealing with psyops or psychological operations.

Since anyone can Google the various "school massacres," and compute the above notions, one could also recognize how these things turn themselves on an off too much like a faucet to ascribe it all to sociological and independent premises.

Therefore if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it it probably a duck. I am sorry most people have too selective a vision on the topic and other current events, to even open the door to the fact of malevolent components existing in the illusion of a warped political, social, and scientific concept of "power." These ideas indicate the usual Hegelean replay, followed by more instant replays to pass more bad laws and so forth.


[edit on 5-10-2006 by SkipShipman]



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 03:46 PM
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I think that along with a lot of the other problems you all mentioned, kids have way too much time on their hands these days. When I was a kid, I was playing outside, not inside watching the latest Scream movie or playing some shoot 'em up video game. This stuff is desensitizing people to violence and even glamourizing it. I'm not saying that's the cause of their behavior, but it doesn't help.

I also think that parenting has changed lately. It seems as everybody is afraid to take control of their kids these days. Kids seem to be the ones in control. We're afraid of hurting their feelings and afraid they won't like us. Kids need to be taught to deal with rejection and hurt feelings. Not saying hurt their feelings on purpose, but you know what I mean. They need to learn discipline so that they know how to have self-control when they grow up.

We're growing up in a very selfish, "ME" society and we are more drawn into ourselves. I think that the combination of having too much time to sit around and think about yourself and how picked on you are along with lack of self-discipline and a never-ending string of violent video games could fuel quite the lashing out.



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by SkipShipman
These ideas indicate the usual Hagelean replay, followed by more instant replays to pass more bad laws and so forth.


You're the second member to post an esoteric reference to Hegel and his philosophies. Not everyone here has heard of Hegel and not everyone who has heard of Hegel knows who he was or what he contributed to the world of philosophy and politics.

So, I'm going to ask those who reference arcane concepts to be just a little more specific for those of us who may not be studying Hegel at this moment and may be just a little vague about the topic.

[edit on 2006/10/5 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 04:24 PM
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Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel gives us a philosophical context for historical perspectives.

Wikipedia states:

In previous modern accounts of Hegelianism (to undergraduate classes, for example), Hegel's dialectic was most often characterized as a three-step process of "Thesis, antithesis, synthesis", namely, that a "thesis" (e.g. the French Revolution) would cause the creation of its "antithesis" (e.g. the Reign of Terror that followed), and would eventually result in a "synthesis" (e.g. the Constitutional state of free citizens). However, Hegel used this classification only once, and he attributed the terminology to Immanuel Kant. The terminology was largely developed earlier by Fichte the neo-Kantian. It was spread by Friedrich Moritz Chalybäus in a popular account of Hegelian philosophy, and since then the misfit terms have stuck.

Hegel's Triad Dialectic when applied for the purpose of obtaining political control is epitomized by the phrase "divide and conquer". By supporting both extremes(thesis and antithesis)of any issue, militarily or financially or both, the aggressive element in any population will destroy itself. The synthesis emerges as nations of shell-shocked, passive people without direction. Capitalism vs. Communism, Christian vs. Muslim or even Democrat vs. Republican supported militarily to destroy each other eliminates all actively aggressive competition for control. By financially supporting political parties to reach political gridlock elections can be decided by something as trivial as hanging chads or tooth decay. The political application of Hegel's triad is far from complex.

Comment: In the perspective of current events governments have persistently operated through the mask of something called "problem-reaction-solution." The mask is of course whether or not the government created the problem at the onset, another layer of Hegelean "divide and conquer," and what solutions appear to originate from a prepared pre-set think tank. For example the Patriot Act is totally complex, and could not have been prepared in the short time from September 11, 2001 and its passage, along with the immense complexity of the Homeland Security bill. These cookie cutter methods are suggestive of a causative notion for their implementation originating in other than the stated conditions, but rather from the ultimate cause being black operations, government connected operations.

Plausible deniability is integral to removing responsibility from such government centered motivations and operations.

The large scope of the results of the current events anamole such as Columbine, Kinkel, and the current wave, suggests in the Hegelean format more than only independent causation, but rather a nexus of all involved actors including legislative, media, and executive. Think what's is next, more regulation of perhaps the only remaining bastion of independent thinking, the Amish? Apparently the jealous God of government control requires that it reach everywhere, especially where it is unwanted.

[edit on 5-10-2006 by SkipShipman]






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