A380: Hurt American pride?

More than any other aircraft programme discussed on these boards, the Airbus A380 is regularly savaged by members and this essay is my attempt to divine the rationale behind some of these posts. Of course no programme is above criticism, and the A380 programme as a whole has attracted a lot of perfectly valid and warranted criticism, especially since the first flight and the problems that have emerged since that event.

Despite this however a great deal of what has been written about it seems to be clearly borne purely out of some sense of jealousy, or hurt national pride, that ‘The Biggest Airliner in the World’ title has been taken away from America, the first instinct of the reader might well be to dismiss this claim as nonsense, but when you actually look at what has been written then it is the only logical conclusion to be drawn. I will of course illustrate my point but the quotes I use will not be attributed to anyone as I am not out to ridicule individuals or cause embarrassment, only to point out the desperation of some of the arguments put forward.

One old Chestnut that rears its head on a regular basis from several people is a variation of this common theme;
Boeings point to point strategy with the 787 is right and Airbus hub system is wrong, there is no market for it
These usually end with a rather telling comment such as ‘America wins’ or somesuch. What this completely fails to take account of is that the 787 and A350 are almost identical in their sector, chasing the same orders (see SIA for instance) plus that fact that Boeing is currently investing heavily and working hard to bring the 747-8 to the market, an aircraft only marginally smaller than the A380 (50 passengers at service entry on current plans). Given that the facts are completely contradictory to the argument there is clearly no motivation for these posts other than ‘banging the American drum’. As such these posts are just plain silly and pointless and metaphorically wave a flag emblazoned “Look at me, I’m a raving Xenophobe with nothing useful to add to the discussion”. In fact I reckon that’s what these posts are FOR

Another frequently seen ‘boast’ is this one;

Boeing got it right; this is proven by the fact that the 787 has sold more aircraft than the A380!!!

While this is undoubtedly true, and this maybe gives the poster the illusion of being on solid ground, it also ignores one basic simple fact, namely that you would have to be retarded to ever think otherwise!

Look at how many aircraft there are in the world today in the same class that the 787 will fill (this includes the 767, A330, A340 and smaller 777’s), literally thousands . Now look at how many 747’s (the only previous model that comes close to the A380) are in service (precisely 989 of all models with 46 more -400’s on order). Of course the 787 is going to sell more than the A380, the A350 will, in turn, outsell the 747-8, all of which proves precisely nothing.
What this argument doesn’t seem to recognise is that there is no numbers race between the two models, they are too different. Those races are between the A380 and the 747-8 (which Airbus is winning) and the 787 and A350 (which Boeing is winning). In both cases it is the plane that came first to the market which is in front. There can be no conclusions drawn from sales figures as to which is the ‘best’ plane in either segment, this is something that only time and operational experience will tell us. What would be cause for mocking posts against the European giant would be if airlines had held off ordering it and then flocked to the Boeing giant when it was revealed, however this has not happened.

A very funny pair from quite a while ago are these ones;

Yep Boeing duped them with the sonic cruiser and they fell for it. I wouldn't want to play Texas holdem against them

Boeing snookered them into building that 800 passenger white elephant and then Boeing builds a plane that the market actually wants.


This is taking ‘fanboy worship’ to extremes! the idea that Boeing, trailing in both sales and output and no new product lines in development,as was the situation at the time, would invest millions of dollars and months of effort as a dupe shows a serious lack of grasp on reality. Likewise the idea that Airbus only built the A380 because Boeing tricked them into it. Although absolute gems, these arguments are sadly rarely seen.


One old evergreen, which surely more than any other, shows the true motivation behind the post as being jealousy and hurt American national pride is the type of post that actually uses the phrase itself;

The A380 makes no economic sense, it has only been created for French national pride (see what I mean )

This one is so easily demolished that its almost no fun, firstly how can national pride be a motivational concept behind a multinational project? Unless the writer harbours serious misconceptions about Europe having a sense of nationality this is clearly ridiculous.

Secondly, why would airlines in Singapore, Qatar and Australia, to name but three, spend billions of dollars between them purely to sate this ‘pride’ on the other side of the planet on a plane they have no need of?

Quite clearly the whole thing is rubbish and what the various writers really WANTED to say was;

WAAAH! Its not fair! Why doesn’t Boeing make something even bigger, I hope this thing crashes and burns!



This post, of course, is not about the genuine and serious concerns raised by members which are completely valid, nor about those posters (aaaaa, take a bow) who are honest enough to come right out and say they don’t like it. But a bit of gentle fun aimed at those raving xenophobes who try to hide behind arguments which are completely transparent and utter nonsense.

If you have read this post and feel enraged/insulted by it, then maybe it was about YOU?











[edit on 4-10-2006 by waynos]

Boeing builds far superior planes in every way compared to Airbus all I have to say is you will never beat America! We are the winners and you are the losers. This is the way it has always been and this is the way it will always be. Don’t even try it losers. America will beat your ass again. Anytime. Bring’em on!

Go USA!!

What can I say, apart from 'wonderful!' *clasps hands tightly overcome with joy*

Fear the power of the Shamantor!

Anyway:

Originally posted by waynos
One old Chestnut that rears its head on a regular basis from several people is a variation of this common theme;
Boeings point to point strategy with the 787 is right and Airbus hub system is wrong, there is no market for it

I only wanted to add to your explanation why this is a ridiculous argument: The large capacity aircraft were ALWAYS aimed at the passenger strong, mid-long range routes. Even IF we theoreticise that with cheaper flight costs and expanding regional airports the point-to-point market will be strengthened, This will have little effect on these large routes: Because even dozens of regional airports do NOT change the fact that a majority of persons are travelling from one metropolitan area to the next.

The significance of places like Shanghai, Tokyo, L.A., New York, London, Frankfurt, Paris etc... and, likewise, the importance of their airports wont simply cease because Clearwater, Colorado gets its own airport.

The A-380 would truly hurt American pride only if we were unable to replicate or best the aircraft. I think there is no doubt that American aerospace technology leads the way in all areas and always has.

What's the A-380s claim to fame? It's big? Wow, theres a real jump forward in avaiation.

Let's talk about cutting edge:

1st powered flight: Wright Flyer
1st supersonic flight in human history: Bell X-1
1st spaceplane: North American X-15
1st mass production supersonic fighter; North American F-100 Super Sabre
1st stealth technolgy aircraft in mass production: Lockeheed F-117
1st stealth technology bomber; Northrup Grumman B-2

I wont even get into spaceflight.

Add to all this the Airbus Consortium in a multi-nationally subsidized operation. American companies do all this on their own. They invest their own money, they take the risks, they reap the rewards, and sometimes they fail. That's what inspires success.



[edit on 10/4/2006 by darkbluesky]

Well Waynos, I'd say you're hitting all the nails right slap bang on their heads there.

It's seemed to me that this has become ATS's very own (weird) version of nationalistic.......er, can I say um, 'sword-waving'......if you get my meaning?
(and you know what they say about those who are unnaturally obsessed about such matters, right? )

There are some serious commentators around but almost without exception the regular run of Airbus/A380/A350 threads are little more than (thinly) veiled and rather weak 'attacks' on Europe, France, Germany and/or the EU in general.
(Plus there's this weird underlying idea that Europe is 'socialist' - which by any actual proper definition of the term it is not - and therefore somehow a natural enemy of the USA)

Someone like, say, FreddyT can make a fair point and tweak a nose whilst doing it; that's fine IMO and adds a little fun into the proceedings and stops this place becoming as dry as dust.

Sadly that kind of thing is all too rare and we're usually treated to some spun gossip which apparantly proves ( ) Airbus is in the verge of closing the line or simply closing down completely some time soon.
Sieg heil USA!......or some other laughable nationalistic nonsense not so detached from such sentiments.

As I said on another thread I just hope that those dishing it out can take it when the wheel turns (as it always does).

Airbus has had a bad year, it's true.
There might even be a bad one next year thanks to the knock-on effects of this year's problems and the inevitable rationalisation (which has been going on for a few months now) but only an idiot would delude themselves that Airbus is the only company ever to have a bad spell.
Only an ignoramus would pretend that the problems inherent in long supply lines are unique to Airbus.
Only an idiot would blind themselves to the fact that Airbus has also had a long run of very good years.

......and only a total fool would imagine that Airbus (as one of Europe's prime strategic high tech industries) would ever be allowed to disappear from 'the stage'.

I can't help thinking that unlying some of this is an awareness of the uncomfortable truth that much of the USA's position in aviation and associated electronic systems has it's roots in Europe (think jets, radar and high-speed aerodynamics).

The notion that the US aviation operates on a solely 'private' basis is also, frankly, laughable.

Hurt pride indeed.

Football-type aviation 'fans'; who'd a thunk it?


[edit on 4-10-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by darkbluesky
Let's talk about cutting edge:

1st powered flight: Wright Flyer
1st supersonic flight in human history: Bell X-1
1st spaceplane: North American X-15
1st mass production supersonic fighter; North American F-100 Super Sabre
1st stealth technolgy aircraft in mass production: Lockeheed F-117
1st stealth technology bomber; Northrup Grumman B-2

I wont even get into spaceflight.

[edit on 10/4/2006 by darkbluesky]

First sucessful ICBM launch R-7
First Satelite into Orbit Sputnik
First animal into Space Laikia
First Man in Space Yuri Garargin
First Craft to get to moon Luna 1
First Luna fly-by Luna 3
First moon landing Luna 4
First landing on another planet Venera 3
First pictures from Venus Venera 9



[edit on 4-10-2006 by Popeye]

oh..... boo hoo...... Us americans and our nationalistic sentiments..... REALLY LAUGHABLE.....

Look at the germans.....they buy only german made products.....there are several countries in europe just as nationalistic as the USA. The only reason they get all upset of American nationalism is because..... well, we got everything to be proud of as far as technological innovation. See, if we were like Iran and just now getting rockets to fly straight ( ) no one would care about American nationalism.

Europeans care because they get their noses bloodied by the USA....

BTW Europeans are equally as snobbish about USA planes....I dont know how many comments Ive heard about the F-22..... yet they want the source codes for the JSF. .




[edit on 4-10-2006 by XphilesPhan]

Originally posted by Popeye

First sucessful ICBM launch R-7
First Satelite into Orbit Sputnik
First animal into Space Laikia
First Man in Space Yuri Garargin
First Craft to get to moon Luna 1
First Luna fly-by Luna 3
First moon landing Luna 4
First landing on another planet Venera 3
First pictures from Venus Venera 9



[edit on 4-10-2006 by Popeye]

1st man outside low earth orbit American
2nd man outside low earth orbit American
3rd...etc
1st man on moon American
2nd man on moon American
3rd...etc

you get the idea

Also, I thought this was a UK/USA competition? No wait...an EU/USA competition.

Originally posted by Popeye


First sucessful ICBM launch R-7
First Satelite into Orbit Sputnik
First animal into Space Laikia
First Man in Space Yuri Garargin
First Craft to get to moon Luna 1
First Luna fly-by Luna 3
First moon landing Luna 4
First landing on another planet Venera 3
First pictures from Venus Venera 9



[edit on 4-10-2006 by Popeye]

Soviets lost the space race....they never made it to the moon before we did.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan

Europeans care because they get their noses bloodied by the USA....

that doesn't bother me about americans, nearly EVERYBODY is proud of their country, but it just seems on the net most americans live on planet 'america' we are consectly hearing about america THIS and america THAT, the rest of the world doesn't exist to the majority of americans.

yet this is a muti-national message board and when somebody posts something that they are proud of their country, americans come storming in going BLAHHHHHHHHHH,

then we defend ourselfs saying america is not 'all' that great (give our reasons), then we get "you just hate us because of our freedoms"

you can be an annoying culture.

[edit on 4-10-2006 by st3ve_o]

Originally posted by XphilesPhan


Look at the germans.....they buy only german made products.....there are several countries in europe just as nationalistic as the USA. The only reason they get all upset of American nationalism is because..... well, we got everything to be proud of as far as technological innovation. See, if we were like Iran and just now getting rockets to fly straight (

) no one would care about American nationalism.

Its quite true; the US has everything to be proud of as far as technological innovation.

Except of course

the car
the flushing toilet
the jet engine
the jet airliner
internal combustion engines
powered flight (the wrights were the first to prove sustained, powered, controlled flight only. each part had already beeen done seperatly between them.)
computers
tv
telephones
radio
nuclear power (uk had first comercial power plant)
submarines
tivo!

etc etc etc

Oh my, a few of our transatlantic cousins are getting their knickers in a twist already.

Nice lists as well guys, although WTF the relevance is to the topic I can't imagine.

I thought I made it pretty plain first time but here goes;

THere is nothing wrong with pride in your country and its achievements. I am proud of my own country, its natural.

This pride, though, does not compel me to bitch and moan about 'foreign' achievements and belittle them with imaginary defects just because they ARE foreign, such is the action of an intellectual pygmy in his misguided attempt at 'patriotism'. This is the point.

1969 C 5 Galaxy USA
www.af.mil...
1982 Antonov An-124 USSR
en.wikipedia.org...
1988 Antonov An-225 USSR

THESE AIRCRAFT ARE engineering feats and are awesome in apperance
and appeall.

The airbus 380 is NOTHING SPECIAL.
Qantas announced today a 2 YEAR delay for these buckets.

Originally posted by waynos
THere is nothing wrong with pride in your country and its achievements. I am proud of my own country, its natural.

This pride, though, does not compel me to bitch and moan about 'foreign' achievements and belittle them with imaginary defects just because they ARE foreign, such is the action of an intellectual pygmy in his misguided attempt at 'patriotism'. This is the point.

- You have voted waynos for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Spot on Waynos, got it in one.

Kudos Waynos - You laid the snare and I stepped in willingly.
I apologize fo my knee-jerk response.

Seriously Waynos. Remember not so long ago how airbus then chief underestimated Boeing to the point of ridicule them for making 1960's planes while they Airbus produced technological marvels.

Remember how at the launch of the A380 the presidents and PM of the countries involved each pronounced speeches telling how advanced and superior they were. I don't recall Bill Clinton in the launch of the most advanced plane flying today, the Boeing 777.

Also why Americans should be jealous.
Boeing creates the fist successful jetliner, the 707
They expanded aviation to anybody the 747
and you can go on and on

Oh but wait what about the Comet, and the Concorde. After all the Comet came first and the Concorde was the only supersonic jetliner. Well the Comet was an engineering and commercial failure, the Dash-8 was years ahead of it. And we all know that if he SST had a commercial future it would have been a Concorde crusher.

And about the A380 as an engineering project is nothing to what it meant to build the 747 in the 1960's. Maybe Airbus should hire John Sutter to see if they can give them a few lessons in managing a VLA project.

Yeap, good catch today Waynos.


Be careful you don't exceed the EU quotas though

Originally posted by darkbluesky

1st man outside low earth orbit American
2nd man outside low earth orbit American
3rd...etc
1st man on moon American
2nd man on moon American
3rd...etc

you get the idea

Also, I thought this was a UK/USA competition? No wait...an EU/USA competition.

Oh man, had to laugh when i read that.

Wernher von Braun
Born March 23, 1912 and died June 16, 1977.

This man was one of the leading experts in rocket technology and its development both in Germany and the United States. He was the leader before and during WWII of the rocket development program. When the war came to an end he gained entry to the United States VIA Operation Paperclip where he worked on the American ICBM program then went on to become a Director at NASA. To this day he is known as "The Father of the United States Space Program".

Source.

[edit on 4/10/06 by Implosion]

Originally posted by Implosion

Originally posted by darkbluesky

1st man outside low earth orbit American
2nd man outside low earth orbit American
3rd...etc
1st man on moon American
2nd man on moon American
3rd...etc

you get the idea

Also, I thought this was a UK/USA competition? No wait...an EU/USA competition.

Oh man, had to laugh when i read that.

Wernher von Braun
Born March 23, 1912 and died June 16, 1977.

This man was one of the leading experts in rocket technology and its development both in Germany and the United States. He was the leader before and during WWII of the rocket development program. When the war came to an end he gained entry to the United States VIA Operation Paperclip where he worked on the American ICBM program then went on to become a Director at NASA. To this day he is known as "The Father of the United States Space Program".

Source.

[edit on 4/10/06 by Implosion]

Yeah, They were Germans....but they were our Germans!