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The Eucharist Conspiracy

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posted on Oct, 2 2006 @ 02:13 PM
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Greetings:

“The Blessed Eucharist as a Sacrament” ( www.newadvent.org... ) is the invention of the Denominations with no application whatsoever to the member of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27 = that’s us) in the world today. Their use of images (like the one in the right hand corner of the linked page) of Mary and Baby Jesus are taken from the pagan Greek (Aphrodite) and Roman (Diana) “Goddesses of Love.”

The Roman Catholic Church (and her sister and daughter Denominations) have carried out grand larceny by taking the ‘verb’ for “to give thanks” (‘eucharisteo’ #2168 = Luke 22:17+19) and transforming that into the ‘noun’ in their “Blessed Eucharist as a Sacrament.” Even the term “Sacrament” is found nowhere in Scripture, but what the hay; they are inventing this stuff as they go anyway. What Jesus Christ is actually doing in Luke 22 is keeping Mosaic Law and commands regarding the “Lord’s Passover” Supper:


“In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD'S Passover.” Leviticus 23:5.


Gentiles have been ‘without the Law’ (Romans 2:14+15) from the beginning, and Mosaic Law was given to Jews only (Romans 9:1-4). Can anyone guess how many Gentiles were present at the Lord’s Supper in Luke 22? Answer: ZERO. Therefore, Christ’s statements must be taken in context to this Levitical Ordinance of Mosaic Law,


”And when He had taken some bread and given thanks [eucharisteo #2168], He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." Luke 22:19.


When Christ said to “do this,” His statement is to Jews keeping the Lord’s Passover Supper once a year on Nisan 14 at twilight, just as practicing Jews keep the Lord’s Supper every year on the same day. Gentiles running the professing Christian Denominations have taken Christ’s statements concerning this Passover ritual completely out of context and have invented their own version of the Lord’s Supper in direct opposition to Paul’s commands to the Corinthians:


“Therefore when you meet together, it is NOT to eat the Lord's Supper . . . “. 1Corinthians 11:20.


Paul goes a step farther and reminds the Colossians that nobody is their judge concerning food and drink rituals, saying,


“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath* day -- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.” Colossians 2:16-17.


If nobody is our judge regarding food and drink, how do Roman Catholic Priests excommunicate (another unscriptural term) members from actively participating in their man-made ritual? Even keeping the Sabbath* is one of the Ten Commandments! These powers are invented by the RC Church, just like they invented their Holy Eucharist from the beginning. Paul never even uses the term “priest” in any of his Epistles to Gentiles and he refers to the “body of Christ” (Ephesians 4:12) as the called out assembly of believers themselves.


For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.” Romans 12:4+5.

“Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.” 1Corinthians 12:27.

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.” Colossians 1:24.


And yet, the RC Church dogma says (from link above),


(1) The Matter or Eucharistic Elements:

There are two Eucharistic elements, bread and wine, which constitute the remote matter of the Sacrament of the Altar, while the proximate matter can be none other than the Eucharistic appearances under which the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present.


Their teaching tries to connect the ‘body of Christ’ to the cracker/wafer and the ‘blood’ of Christ to their wine/grape juice, which they tie to Christ’s “Lord’s Passover” Supper of Luke 22 where He is keeping Mosaic Law. They fail to realize Christ is fulfilling these very things at Calvary, where the ‘provision’ for the New Covenant between Himself and the Houses of Israel and Judah (Hebrews 8:8) is being ratified.

There is no such thing as a “New Covenant” for the members of “Christ’s body,” because we have already been baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27) Himself with lives hidden with Christ “IN” God (Colossians 3:1-3). We cannot possibly get any nearer to Christ or His God and Father by any ‘future’ New Covenant between the Lord and the house of Israel. Obedience to Paul’s gospel (Gospel #2 of this thread = www.abovetopsecret.com... ) makes you an active participant in Christ’s death, burial (Gal. 2:20) and resurrection (Col. 3:1-3). And yet, the Catholics continue to crucify Christ over and over again through the use of their man-made rituals that God sent to NOBODY. The fact is that our Passover has already been sacrificed!


”Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.” 1Corinthians 5:7.


Everything that Paul is trying to teach you is a ‘spiritual’ expression of something ‘physical’ in the Old Testament and Kingdom New Testament. We are to “walk by faith and NOT by sight.” 2Corinthians 5:7. This simple truth tells you NOT to run after fleshy rituals that only symbolize heavenly things above where your eyes should stay fixed (Colossians 3:1-3).

GL in the Debate,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral




posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 03:30 AM
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Terral, one might almost think you don't like Catholics.


It appears you've been seriously misinformed about what Catholics teach and believe--not to mention, how the Catholic faith is practiced.

Do you seriously think that Catholic priests believe they are "crucifying" Jesus over and over again--once a week??? If you do--well, again you have been seriously misled. The idea is total nonsense and no Catholic believes there was ever more than one Crucifixion--and that one occurred roughly 2000 years ago. I'm sorry, but the whole idea of "crucifying" Jesus week by week is so flat-out bizarre it's almost laughable.

And about "the Body of Christ"--here you are confusing two totally different things. Catholics too believe that believers make up "the body of Christ". That has nothing to do with the Eucharist!!

And wherever did you get the notion that excommunication has anything to do with "food and drink rituals"??

Your notions about Catholics and Catholic beliefs are so mistaken that I'm sorry, I almost find it hard to believe you're serious!

Terral, I hate to tell you this, but someone has been feeding you a lot of anti-Catholic propaganda. Of course you can think and feel any way you like about Catholicism--but at least you should know what Catholicism really stands for before you judge it.

And I can promise you--your "sources" have seriously misinformed you.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 09:18 AM
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Hi AboveReproach (Above):


Above >> Terral, one might almost think you don't like Catholics. It appears you've been seriously misinformed about what Catholics teach and believe--not to mention, how the Catholic faith is practiced.


I sat, stood and knelt in Catholic pews for six years and know their doctrines as well as anyone here. What are you trying to sell as the “Catholic faith?” Catholicism represents just another denomination of professing “Christianity.” Please talk about our “Christian Faith” based upon God raising Christ from the dead (Rom. 10:9) on the third day (1Cor. 15:3+4). Our redemption is “IN” Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24) and our forgiveness is through His precious blood (Ephesians 1:7) for those having the “faith of Jesus” (Romans 3:26). We have been “baptized into Christ” (Galatians 3:27) and not into any Catholic faith.


Above >> Do you seriously think that Catholic priests believe they are "crucifying" Jesus over and over again--once a week???


Do you really think that anything you say has application to what I ‘did’ present in the Opening Post? I know FOR CERTAIN that your Roman Catholic Denomination crucifies Christ over and over again in their Mass with their food and drink (wafer and wine) rituals. I gave the “The Blessed Eucharist as a Sacrament” link in the first sentence of the Opening Post, which accurately describes your man-made ritual.


Above >> If you do--well, again you have been seriously misled. The idea is total nonsense and no Catholic believes there was ever more than one Crucifixion--and that one occurred roughly 2000 years ago. I'm sorry, but the whole idea of "crucifying" Jesus week by week is so flat-out bizarre it's almost laughable.


What does the evidence say in this case??? www.christusrex.org... [my notes]


ARTICLE 3 - THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST

1322 The holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation. Those who have been raised to the dignity of the royal priesthood by Baptism [Sacrament #1] and configured more deeply to Christ by Confirmation [Sacrament #2] participate with the whole community in the Lord's own sacrifice by means of the Eucharist.

1323 "At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This he did in order to PERPETUATE [my CAPS] the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet 'in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.'"[133]


The RC Sacrament of Baptism is taken from John’s Baptism “for the forgiveness of sins” (Mark 1:4+5), which is a doctrinal precept of the “gospel of the kingdom” ( www.abovetopsecret.com... ), which we do not even preach today. We have Christ’s shed blood (Ephesians 1:7) for our forgiveness and Paul’s “one baptism” (Ephesians 4:5) is done by the “Holy Spirit” (Ephesians 1:13-14) described as the “one Spirit” in 1Corinthians 12:13. The RC Denomination has blended the ‘two’ gospels of the New Testament into their man-made gospel that DOES NOT SAVE. Their “Eucharist” sacrament is their ‘man-made’ invention from the “Lord’s Passover” (Lev. 23:5) that God NEVER intended for Gentiles (1Corinthians 11:20).

Can you find a single verse of Scripture where Paul even mentions “priests?” No. A Scriptural priest is a Levitical ‘intercessor’ between God and men, but that is what Christ does for us at the “right hand of God” (Romans 8:34, Col. 3:1-3); as the “one Mediator.” 1Timothy 2:5. Enter most any Catholic church and you will find statues of Mary holding baby Jesus (mimicking Aphrodite, Diana) or Christ hanging on the cross; or both. What does Paul teach about the Christ I know today??


“For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. Therefore from now on we recognize NO ONE according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet NOW we know Him in this way NO LONGER. Therefore IF anyone is IN CHRIST, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.” 2Corinthians 5:14-17.


What are some of these old things that passed away? Paul tells us in his Epistle To The Colossians:


“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.” Colossians 2:16-17.


Nobody is our judge regarding food and drink rituals or even keeping the Sabbath, because these are mere SHADOWS of things to come for the body of Christ. If we do not even recognize Christ according to the flesh any longer, then how are we to see Him??


“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him AND for Him. He is before all things, and 'IN’ Him ALL THINGS hold together.” Colossians 1:15-17.


In other words, the “Christ Jesus” I know is larger than this entire universe, as all things in this creation are held together “IN” Him. Can the Christ of Paul’s descriptions here fit onto any man-made cross?? No! The rites and rituals of the RC Denomination replaces the ‘spiritual’ values with ‘physical’ coefficients that blind and bind their congregations with chains making it IMPOSSIBLE for them to see beyond the mere shadows of these things. Instead of being baptized into Christ Jesus Himself, the RC version says people are baptized into their church through a water ritual. Instead of having Christ Himself as their ‘one Mediator’ between God and men (1Timothy 2:5), the RC church places their priest into that position.

[Continued]



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 09:21 AM
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Their Eucharistic Hocus Pocus “here is His body” and “here is His blood” Sacrificial Ritual represents a physical substitute for our ‘called out assembly’ (Ekklesia) being the “body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) itself.


Above >> And about "the Body of Christ"--here you are confusing two totally different things. Catholics too believe that believers make up "the body of Christ". That has nothing to do with the Eucharist!!


What does the evidence say? Same link = www.christusrex.org...


“III. THE EUCHARIST IN THE ECONOMY OF SALVATION

The signs of bread and wine:

1333 At the heart of the Eucharistic celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ's Body and Blood . . .”


However, Paul uses this same exact phrase to say ‘we’ (the believers) are “Christ’s Body.”


“Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.” 1Corinthians 12:27.



Above >> And wherever did you get the notion that excommunication has anything to do with "food and drink rituals"??


The term “excommunication” itself was created from the RC notion of “Holy Communion.” The Catholic Encyclopedia ( www.newadvent.org... ) puts it this way:


“. . . The excommunicated person, it is true, does not cease to be a Christian, since his baptism can never be effaced; he can, however, be considered as an exile from Christian society and as non-existent, for a time at least, in the sight of ecclesiastical authority. But such exile can have an end (and the Church desires it), as soon as the offender has given suitable satisfaction. Meanwhile, his status before the Church is that of a stranger. He may not participate in public worship NOR receive the Body of Christ or any of the sacraments. Moreover, if he be a cleric, he is forbidden to administer a sacred rite or to exercise an act of spiritual authority.


But wait a minute: I thought the “body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) was the called out assembly itself! How does the RC parishioner ‘receive the BODY OF CHRIST,’ if Above’s theory is correct?! No sir. The RC church teaches their ‘wafer/cracker’ is the ‘body of Christ,’ which the excommunicated member is NOT allowed to receive upon being ‘excommunicated.’ It appears Mr. AboveReproach wants everyone to believe his personal opinions on this topic are also ‘abovereproach,’ when the evidence says something else.


Above >> Your notions about Catholics and Catholic beliefs are so mistaken that I'm sorry, I almost find it hard to believe you're serious!


Again, I spent years and years going to Mass every Sunday to be shipped in and out like cattle; through a series of repeticous ceremonial rituals that crucify Christ over and over again. My spiritual growth ‘in’ Christ Jesus began to enlarge exponentially the moment I left the RC church to begin studying Scripture elsewhere. Returning to a Catholic church today will find the pews filled with chained souls in the same condition I left them over thirty years ago hearing the same exact words recanted over and over.


Above >> Terral, I hate to tell you this, but someone has been feeding you a lot of anti-Catholic propaganda. Of course you can think and feel any way you like about Catholicism--but at least you should know what Catholicism really stands for before you judge it.


Something tells me you really like telling me and everyone here your opinions about what AboveReproach thinks about my Opening Post. However, were you able to “quote >>” one thing and prove it wrong using Scripture? No. All of your opinions bound together offer nothing against my Opening Post Presentation. I have walked in your moccasins for six years and appear to know more about your RC man-made rituals that you.


Above >> And I can promise you--your "sources" have seriously misinformed you.


Stop trying to make promises you cannot keep and simply answer the arguments from my Opening Post. Where do you find the noun “Eucharist” used by Christ or anyone else in the New Testament? Christ is addressing Jews only at the Lord’s Passover Supper in Luke 22, where “do this” (Luke 22:19) is a reference to that particular “Lord’s Passover” supper performed once a year on Nisan 14 at twilight (Lev. 23:5). Where do Gentiles get off teaching that Christ is addressing Gentiles in those verses, when He specifically says,


“But He answered and said, "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15:24.


Please explain for everyone here the reasons you feel justified in removing the “NOT” from this verse:


“Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper . . .”. 1Corinthians 11:20.


GL in the debate,

Terral



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 04:11 PM
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Hi to you too, Terral.


And not that it's that important, but actually it's Ms. Abovereproach, not Mr.--okay?


I still say you're confusing two different ideas about the "Body of Christ"--one does refer to the "Body of Christ" in the Eucharist--the other, which is totally separate, refers as you say to the whole "body" of believers. These are two different things, it's just that both happen to use the same phrase and that can be confusing. But they don't refer to the same thing at all.

How old were you when you attended Mass? If you were a child, you may have misunderstood just what was happening. Because again: There was only one Crucifixion, and that was 2000 years ago. NO INFORMED Catholic believes that Jesus is being "crucified" on a weekly basis!

Clearly you left the Catholic Church for your own reasons, and I can respect that. I was reared as a Protestant until the age of 16, and possibly I left that church for reasons similiar to yours for leaving the Catholic Church. So maybe we have more in common than either of us knows?


I do agree with you that no one is saved based on which "church" one attends. It is indeed a matter of accepting Christ as Savior, not merely "showing up" at church once a week! I think there are "true" Christians in many "denominations" or even outside denominational categories.

One more thing--you talk a lot about using Scripture to back up one's statements. As Jesus Himself said, even the devil can quote Scripture for his own purposes. (And no--I am not comparing you to Satan!! Just making a point that Jesus once made.) I have seen people "quoting Scripture" to "back up" beliefs that were diametrically opposed--using the exact same "quotes" to arrive at totally different beliefs! And indeed even at that--any Scripture quoted "out of context" totally loses its "original intent".

And you seem to quote Paul a lot (IMHO). But you do quote him more than other Scriptures. And I above quoted Jesus, not Paul, so I'm wondering:

Whose ideas matter more to you? Jesus's or Paul's?



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 05:28 PM
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Hi AboveReproach:


Above >> Hi to you too, Terral. And not that it's that important, but actually it's Ms. Abovereproach, not Mr.--okay?


On most Boards I can click the member’s name and find a lot of information, but clicking your name here reveals nothing. Since God commands women be silent in the assembly (1Cor. 14:34), then I merely assume the respondents are men.


Above >> I still say you're confusing two different ideas about the "Body of Christ"--one does refer to the "Body of Christ" in the Eucharist--the other, which is totally separate, refers as you say to the whole "body" of believers. These are two different things, it's just that both happen to use the same phrase and that can be confusing. But they don't refer to the same thing at all.


I quoted you and met your objections with third party references and Scripture. In return you offer more of your opinion that quite frankly does not many anything. If you were paying attention then the RC Church gathers their authority from Christ’s “Lord’s Passover” statements in Luke 22 where the ‘bread’ of His teachings are indeed “My body” (Luke 22:19). The Roman Catholic Denomination has borrowed THAT doctrinal precept from the “FULFILLMENT” of the Lord’s Passover, which DOES have a place in Christ fulfilling “all things” (Luke 24:44). However, the Catholics are applying those things IMPROPERLY in their man-made rituals. What Christ is doing in Luke 22 has very important repercussions for Israel of the flesh AND the ‘late rains’ (James 5:7) kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) saved under the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 24:14) during the upcoming 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2, 2Peter 3:10).

Christ was making the ‘provision’ for the ratification of the New Covenant for the houses of Israel and Judah (Heb. 8:8). This means the Lord’s Passover Supper performed once a year on Nisan 14 at twilight is CHANGED for the Messianic Kingdom Jew, as opposed to Israel of the flesh failing to recognize Jesus Christ as Lord/King/Son of God. However, what Christ did in Luke 22 has NOTHING whatsoever to do with “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27 = that’s us) already baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27) with lives hidden with Christ in God (Col. 3:1-3). Your Roman Catholic rituals are MAN-MADE and symbolize NOTHING in Heaven or in the earth or anything under the earth. You did not respond to my recent post and you will also not respond to this one. Why do you feel justified in removing the “NOT” from this verse?


"Therefore when you meet together, it is NOT to eat the Lord's Supper . . .". 1Corinthians 11:20.



Above >> How old were you when you attended Mass? If you were a child, you may have misunderstood just what was happening. Because again: There was only one Crucifixion, and that was 2000 years ago. NO INFORMED Catholic believes that Jesus is being "crucified" on a weekly basis![big snip]


I was an adult when entering the RC denomination and still an adult when leaving six years later. I quoted the ‘perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross’ ( www.christusrex.org... ) language from the “Catechism Of The Catholic Church” that you appear to in no way understand. What the typical Catholic believes has nothing to do with this thread at all.


Catechism >> 1323 "At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This he did in order to PERPETUATE THE SACRIFICE OF THE CROSS THROUGHOUT THE AGES until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet 'in which CHRIST IS CONSUMED, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.'"[133]


The ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) cannot be consumed by the members of HIS OWN BODY. 1Corinthians 12:27 (Christ’s body). That would be cannibalism to the ones already “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6). Those believing the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ in the upcoming 1000 Years Day of the Lord are yet to be found “IN” Christ Jesus. THEY will eat the Lord’s Supper once a year on Nisan 14 at twilight, which identifies Israel being liberated from the Egyptians AND part of the New Covenant with Israel and Judah in Hebrews 8:8. In short, the Catholic Denomination has mixed the water (kingdom) and blood (grace) aspects of Christ’s ministry (1John 5:6), which effectively defiles BOTH!


Above >> And you seem to quote Paul a lot (IMHO). But you do quote him more than other Scriptures. And I above quoted Jesus, not Paul, so I'm wondering: Whose ideas matter more to you? Jesus's or Paul's?


Paul’s words are the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37+38) for the members of Christ’s body (1Cor. 12:27) in the world today. The words of Peter, John and James represent the Lord’s Commandment for those living in the upcoming 1000 Years Day of the Lord. Paul’s words are Christ’s final marching orders to our “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) living in the mystery time just before the 1000 Years Day of the Lord (1Thes. 5:1+2) “Comes” (2Thes. 2:2). Therefore, most everything Paul gives us in Scripture is derived from the “visions and revelations of the Lord” (2Cor. 12:1). You are teaching from Jesus the Messiah of the flesh who we know “NO LONGER” (2Cor. 5:16+17). GL recognizing the difference,

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 06:18 PM
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This is really sad, Terral. I was hoping that you and I could engage in a constructive, civil, perhaps even friendly discussion.

It appears you aren't interested in that at all. I'm not quite sure just what your objectives are, frankly. You keep quoting Scripture (almost invariably Paul) instead of speaking to me as a fellow Christian--much less a fellow human being!

I absolutely and categorically disagree that we are to "cast aside" the "earthly" Jesus--whatever that is! Jesus was (and is) the same, whether 2000 years ago when He walked the earth, or today, or for that matter a million years from now. We are called "Christians" for a good reason--not "Paulians"! Yes, Paul claims to speak for Jesus very often, but clearly the people who really KNEW Jesus--Peter, James, and all the rest of the apostles and disciples--had serious reservations about some of Paul's ideas. This is clear from reading the Bible--even tho the Book of Acts, for example, tries to "smooth over" the relationship between Paul and the disciples, the tension still clearly is there. Once he was even ordered to come to Jerusalem to face James--clearly the friends and disciples of Jesus were worried about a lot of Paul's doings! Even Paul did not claim for himself the lofty status that some since have imputed to him. More than once, he will say (with true Christian humility), "Now this is only my opinion on this matter..." yet people willfully ignore that modest disclaimer and go on to quote it as if it came straight from the mouth of God Himself. (And no, I'm not saying that Paul made this disclaimer about a lot of his statements--but he did in several cases, and many people still seem oblivious to this!)

It is astounding that in the year 2006 you are still "assuming" that anyone who responds to a post re: Christianity will be a male.
Do you also think that women should cover their heads while in church? Maybe we should follow the example of Muslim women and cover ourselves completely in burkas? And just stay inside the home and never open our mouths? I wonder why, if God considers us unworthy to speak or teach, why on earth he even wasted brains on us?? Who needs any intelligence just to mop the floor and give birth and otherwise keep our mouths shut and let the men speak (and think) for us? Do you also think it is improper for women to pray to God "unveiled"?? And that if a woman will not wear the veil, she should have her hair cut off??? (see 1 Corinthians Chapter 11).

Also in the same chapter, Paul says: "When you assemble it is NOT to eat the Lord's Supper, FOR EVERYONE IS IN HASTE TO EAT HIS OWN SUPPER. ONE PERSON GOES HUNGRY WHILE ANOTHER GETS DRUNK." Did you forget this part of your quote? PLEASE READ 1 Corinthians, Chapter 11, verses 23-26. THIS is hardly a condemnation of the Eucharist--in fact it is a perfect description of it!! You are quoting the Bible selectively here!! Clearly Paul--or whoever wrote 1 Corinthians--was angry with the Corinthians for their contentious behavior. He was NOT telling them not to celebrate the Lord's Supper AT ALL--instead he was scolding them for turning what was meant to be a sacred matter into an excuse for fighting and arguing amongst themselves!!! as Paul says, "What I now have to say is not said in praise, because your meetings are not profitable but harmful.....Would you show contempt for the church of God, and embarrass those who have nothing? What can I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!"

THEN begins verses 23-26, which as I said is a beautiful description of the Eucharist. Which Paul says clearly, "I RECEIVED FROM THE LORD."

And you call it "man-made"??? Don't you believe your own Bible?! And same chapter, verse 29: "He who eats and drinks WITHOUT RECOGNIZING THE BODY eats and drinks a judgment on himself."

And as for women being forbidden to preach or teach: what about Paul's friend Phoebe, the
deaconess?



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 06:56 PM
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Clearly Paul held Phoebe, as well as many other women active in the church, in very high regard indeed. See Romans, Chapter 16, verses 1&2:

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a deaconess of the church of Cenchrae. Please welcome her in the Lord, as saints should. If she needs help in anything, give it to her, for she herself has been of help to many, including myself."

Then continue in the same Chapter of Romans, Chapter 16, verses 3-16, where Paul sends greetings to his "fellow workers in Christ". Please note that number of these "fellow workers" are indisputably female; several others may also be female, but since the names are unusual to us (as modern English-speakers) it is difficult sometimes to say whether a particular person was a man or a woman.

As you see, I could go on forever.


But lastly, I again refer you to 1st Corinthians, Chapter 11, verses 17 thru 34. You will see then that I was NOT "ignoring" the "NOT" when Paul says, "When you assemble it is NOT to eat the Lord's Supper..." because you were NOT QUOTING THE ENTIRE PASSAGE, WHICH EXPLAINS WHAT PAUL REALLY SAYS.

The contentious, greedy Corinthians, where the wealthy gobble up all the best food first while the poorer late-comers have to go hungry, where instead of respectfully drinking of the wine they instead get roaring drunk, where the well-off amongst the congregation, in Paul's own words, "embarrass those who have nothing"---THIS is what Paul is so angry about!!! He was saying, "You Corinthians do not assemble to eat the Lord's Supper, but instead to make drunken pigs out of yourselves and insult the poor we are supposed to care for!" (Yes, I am paraphrasing here, but read the actual verses--this is clearly Paul's meaning. No one has to be a Bible scholar to see that!!)

And to repeat myself--or actually, to repeat Paul himself--carefully read I Corinthians Chapter 11, verses 23-34, where Paul clearly and beautifully describes "the Lord's Supper"--which is the same thing as the "Eucharist".

Terral, did you really not grasp the significance of the "not" in 1 Corinthians, Chapter 11, verse 17??? He was telling the Corinthians that they were not meeting to eat the Lord's supper, but instead to make spectacles out of themselves!

But in the rest of that Chapter, Paul makes clear that one should indeed "celebrate the Lord's Supper"--which teaching he states he received directly from the Lord--and he goes on in detail to explain how the Lord's Supper (Eucharist) should properly be celebrated.

Oh--re: the fact that I don't tell much about myself in my "personal stats" section (sorry--I forget just what it's called!). If you think I was attempting to "hide" anything, you are mistaken! Actually it's been so long since I looked at it, I can't remember myself what I put there!!



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 07:14 PM
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And incidentally:

You accuse the Catholic Church, in the Eucharist, of acting like "cannibals"--or words to that effect.

That's a very interesting comment for a couple of reasons. Reason 1:

Did you know that the ancient (pagan) world--in particular the Romans--made that exact same accusation (among many others!) against the early Christians??? Yes, the Christians were accused of cannibalism because (reason 2):

The early Christians clearly had an early sacrament in which they spoke of "eating" the Body of Christ"!!! (If that doesn't describe the Eucharist in a nutshell, I can't imagine what would!)

Naturally the pagans, not knowing exactly what went on in these "mysterious" Christian meetings, received a garbled report that these "strange followers of the Way" were eating the Body of their God--in their (pagan) minds, it clearly sounded like the Christians, whom they didn't trust anyway, were engaging in all sorts of highly dubious hijinks.

Surely you know more about Christianity than to make the same misjudgment that the ancient pagans did!!!



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 11:07 PM
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Hi abovereproach!

God bless and keep you - I know He does, from your glow!!!

I sure like your handle and I bet it is nice there, where you are at... I haven't been there in so long... *sigh*

Let me know when the golden apples come upon the tree and I'll come see the lillies and the roses with you!!

Peace multiplied to you, my dear sister!



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 11:19 PM
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Hi Terral


I realize that you don't understand the scriptures in the sense that would allow you to understand what my dear brother Paul means when he says he doesn't suffer a 'woman' to speak in the assembly - for you presume to say the same to another who is physically a woman but who speaks with the generous spirit which is God's and God's alone - meaning that within the physical woman, there is a man speaking to you.

And you are a male on the outside and yet your words are those of your soul (which is the 'woman' Paul speaks of). That is why he speaks of a woman having her head covered.

When the Spirit covers the soul, it is just as a woman approaches God under the protection of her husband's talith - or prayer shawl - and so we must also present ourselves under the the authority and protection of our LORD's mantle if we expect to be justified in our teachings.

It is not a light thing to teach the mysteries of God - and the days are behind us now which were ruled from the psychic level of religion. These are the days of the mystic - those who serve God must be given His insight as well as His express character for we are all held accountable for that which we take upon ourselves....but that which the LORD assigns us is a justified work if we do it in His name.

Please consider my words as qualified and approved.

And God be with you every step!



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 06:34 AM
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Hi Above:


Above >> This is really sad, Terral. I was hoping that you and I could engage in a constructive, civil, perhaps even friendly discussion.


How about if we present our opposing views using Scripture and allow the chips to fall where they may? TY.


It appears you aren't interested in that at all. I'm not quite sure just what your objectives are, frankly. You keep quoting Scripture (almost invariably Paul) instead of speaking to me as a fellow Christian--much less a fellow human being!


Here is the problem in a nutshell: Do I see any “quotes >>” from the many points standing against you above in this thread? No. Your reply is a cross between a “Dear Terral” love letter and another Opening Post of your own. My purpose here is to defend my thesis from the Opening Post that the Eucharist “is the invention of the Denominations with no application whatsoever to the member of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27 = that’s us) in the world today.” If my purpose was to chat with Above, then we would be using the U2U private messaging system. Since you have chosen to become my ‘adversary’ in this debate, then bring plenty of armor, shield and sword of the spirit (Eph. 6:12-17).


I absolutely and categorically disagree that we are to "cast aside" the "earthly" Jesus--whatever that is! Jesus was (and is) the same, whether 2000 years ago when He walked the earth, or today, or for that matter a million years from now.


“Jesus Christ” walking around as the Word “made flesh” (John 1:14) is the incarnation of “Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6) depicted by the Father (spirit), Son (blood = soul) and Holy Spirit (water = body). Can you try to grasp the idea that this entire Universe is held together “IN” Christ Jesus (F+S+HS)??? Or Not??? Can our universe fit inside of Jesus walking around on the earth in His incarnate form? No! Wake up! Pay careful attention to Paul’s teaching:


“He is the IMAGE [almost Infinite] of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and IN Him ALL THINGS hold together.” Colossians 1:15-17.


How are ‘all things’ going to hold together “IN HIM,” if our focus is upon the ‘incarnation’ of Christ Jesus?? This is the essence of Paul’s teaching that says,


“Therefore from now on we recognize NO ONE according to the flesh; even though WE HAVE KNOWN Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way NO LONGER. Therefore IF anyone is IN Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.” 2Corinthians 5:16+17.


Do you want to offer us ‘your’ interpretations on these things, or do you want to continue grandstanding while rambling on about something else? My point is that “New Things” have come for me, BECAUSE I see the “Christ Jesus” of the Pauline Epistles CLEAR AS DAY. You continue walking around with images of the “old things passed away,” and I stand here calling you into the “Light.” Therefore, please stop standing there in the shadows, while refusing to actually ‘debate’ me on this topic. The heart and soul of Paul’s teaching can be understood by carefully reading these things very slowly. Please prepare yourself to grasp a totally new concept that currently escapes your notice:


“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together WITH CHRIST (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up WITH HIM, and seated us WITH HIM [the incarnate Jesus YOU know] IN the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us IN Christ Jesus.” Ephesians 2:4-7.


Please read these verses over and over again, until the Light begins to dawn that believers in our gospel have been raised up WITH Jesus Christ YOU know from the Four Gospels to be seated WITH Jesus Christ YOU know in the flesh IN CHRIST JESUS who is the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) in one almost Infinite Heavenly “MAN” (1Timothy 2:5). Only Paul refers to Christ as “Christ Jesus,” because THAT is the “Son of God” who incarnated upon this earth as Jesus of Nazareth.



Find “Christ Jesus” Figure 2 as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit standing as our “one Mediator” Heavenly “Man” of 1Timothy 2:5. Jesus Christ walking around on earth is the ‘incarnation’ of THAT ENTIRE REALM contained Jesus Christ found “in appearance AS A MAN” (Phil. 2:8). John the Baptist is the incarnation of Figure 3 in one single “man” born of woman sent ‘from God’ (John 1:6) as the three witnesses of Figure 3. The Word of Figure 2 (F+S+HS) existed BEFORE the Universe (Hs, H, E) of Figure 3, which caused John to say:


"It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie . . . These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing . . . This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man [appearance = Phil. 2:8] who has a higher rank than I, for He [F+S+HS = Fig. 2] existed before me [Hs, H, E = Fig. 3].'” John 1:27+30.


Nobody else could write about “Christ Jesus,” because only Paul was given these “visions and revelations of the Lord” (2Cor. 12:1). Therefore, when I am quoting Paul, then you are actually hearing the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37+38) from “Christ Jesus” Himself (F+S+HS) IN whom Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of God right this moment!



Above >> We are called "Christians" for a good reason--not "Paulians"!


Please check the title of this thread and carry your “Deity” concerns to the “Deity Of Christ Conspiracy” ( www.abovetopsecret.com... ). Also, please “quote >>” me to give your rambling some resemblance to ‘context’ of something in the Opening Post and on the ‘topic’ of the debate at hand. Thank you.

Good Luck in this “Eucharist” Debate,

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral



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