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BSA/Cub Scouts...Hit them while they're young

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posted on Sep, 30 2006 @ 08:07 AM
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Recently I recieved some literature that I requested for my son and I about cub scouts. I wished to be a den leader so I could spend more quality time with my son. That is until I read through the pamphlets. I could not believe some of the things that I was reading. I'll start by adding that I don't believe in a god or religion which is a big no no in the BSA. As a matter of fact I can't be a den leader because of this. Here are some quotes from the literature I recieved.

"The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God." Boy Scouts of America, Bylaws.

"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should have religion."

"The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God....The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training."


Here is a requirement for a badge: One of the requirements of the BSA personal fitness merit badge is answer and discuss with their counselor the question: "Are you actively involved in the religious organization of your choice and do you participate in their youth activities?"

Also any homosexuals cannot be in the BSA and will be terminated. Why do we teach our young children to discriminate at such a young age?

Needless to say that my son and I will find an alternate experience for ourselves without the worries and discrimination and without any forced information.




posted on Sep, 30 2006 @ 10:12 AM
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I would have thought that some people may of had a problem with this. I thought wrong. I guess if you believe in god it's ok to do these things but it's wrong to me. There are many links using google about cub scouts of america and religion. I don't think it's right.



posted on Sep, 30 2006 @ 03:21 PM
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I'd like to start out by saying that I myself am a protestant. Do I yell at people in the streets waving a Bible in one hand and a cross in the other? no. Do I argue with every aetheist I see and try to convert people with threats of hell? no. When Jesus roamed the Earth, he never mentioned hell nor threatened people, he simply preached to "love they neighbour".

So do I have a problem with gays? Not really, two of my very good friends are bisexual. Now, do I have a problem with BSA not allowing homosexuals into their program? Nope. Its their own corporation and its up to the Managers of BSA to define their rules and regulations, not the customers.

If you don't like BSA's policies, then take your business elsewhere. There are dozens of other programs for youths that don't follow BSA doctrine. By taking your business elsewhere, BSA will lose another customer. If enough people do this, then BSA will lose a large portion of their demographic. Do I, a christian, disagree with this? Of course not, BSA is a corporation, not a church. They can do damn well as they please, and the customers can follow suit.



posted on Oct, 1 2006 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
I'd like to start out by saying that I myself am a protestant. Do I yell at people in the streets waving a Bible in one hand and a cross in the other? no. Do I argue with every aetheist I see and try to convert people with threats of hell? no. When Jesus roamed the Earth, he never mentioned hell nor threatened people, he simply preached to "love they neighbour".

So do I have a problem with gays? Not really, two of my very good friends are bisexual. Now, do I have a problem with BSA not allowing homosexuals into their program? Nope. Its their own corporation and its up to the Managers of BSA to define their rules and regulations, not the customers.

If you don't like BSA's policies, then take your business elsewhere. There are dozens of other programs for youths that don't follow BSA doctrine. By taking your business elsewhere, BSA will lose another customer. If enough people do this, then BSA will lose a large portion of their demographic. Do I, a christian, disagree with this? Of course not, BSA is a corporation, not a church. They can do damn well as they please, and the customers can follow suit.


Ditto,

I would also like to inform the original poster, while Cub Scouts are usually sponsered out of schools and the den mothers homes, Boy Scout Troops (Boy Scouts being the organization that Cubs fall under) normally are sponsered and meet at CHURCHES. While non sectarian, it has always, since its founding, had a relgious base.



posted on Oct, 2 2006 @ 06:37 AM
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I have to agree with I SEE YOU on this. The BSA should not be restricting access to anyone whether they be gay, bisexual, atheist or atherwise. This is due to the FACT that they receive public funding. Now correct me if I'm wrong but the public is everyone including atheists and gays so why should these people be MADE pay for something that they're not allowed to join?
To put it another way, what if everyone was made pay for a group that selected its members as had to be non-christian - how long would that last?


G



posted on Oct, 2 2006 @ 06:56 AM
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There is a Pagan/Wiccan(I think) group out there to. Its Small and everywhere yet.
I cant recall the name just now.

RE: The Boy Scouts,
Their Sand,
Their Waves,
Theri rules.



posted on Oct, 2 2006 @ 10:18 AM
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Let me preface my response with a couple of facts.

  • I am an Eagle Scout. Well, technically I'm not in BSA any more, but I did achieve that rank before I turned 18.

  • I joined BSA at age 11 and stopped being a Christian at age 12.

  • I still have a healthy relationship with God.

  • I still consider myself a good person.

  • I could not recommend ANY youth organization (secular or not) MORE than the BSA.

  • BSA times were some of the best times of my life.


    Originally posted by I See You
    Recently I recieved some literature that I requested for my son and I about cub scouts. I wished to be a den leader so I could spend more quality time with my son.


    You are right to want to spend quality time with your son, but avoid Cub Scouts. Every single person I know, without fail, who was a Cub Scouts never went on to become an Eagle Scout. The problem is the vast difference between Cubs and Boy Scouts. Cub Scouts are all about hobbies, crafts, and play time. Boy Scouts are about training to be a Man. So either your child is disappointed with Cub Scouts and drops out before they ever get an interest in the BSA, or they love Cub Scouts and are then bummed out by the more somber, serious attitude of the BSA. The one and ONLY disadvantage I had from not being a Cub Scout is that I was unable to achieve the "Arrow of Light" badge, which I was always a little envious of, but Meh... it's just a badge, and it's not one you can earn in the BSA. So if you really want to spend some quality time with the kid, take them camping, hiking, play games with them, etc... you don't need Cub Scouts for that. Once they turn 11, by all means PLEASE get them in the Boy Scouts and become a Scout Leader yourself, and don't let the stupid pamplets or the gay looking uniform scare you away. I still thank my father to this day for the time we had together in Scouts.



    Originally posted by I See You
    That is until I read through the pamphlets. I could not believe some of the things that I was reading. I'll start by adding that I don't believe in a god or religion which is a big no no in the BSA. As a matter of fact I can't be a den leader because of this.


    Okay, meh... don't worry about Cub Scouts. Really. It will not teach your kid anything they really need to survive, and frankly, as a man, you're most likely going to have very little in common with the Den Mothers anyway. Well, I'm assuming you're a man. You could be the boy's mother.

    Anyway, back to the point.

    Scouts is, technically, a religiously-aligned institute. This does not make them Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or anything, and it doesn't mean your little one is going to be brainwashed with religious crap. They will, however, have some sort of a higher sense of moral right and wrong enforced by something other than the law of the land, and will institute a higher appreciation for nature that isn't about environmental activism (for instance, taking a moment to appreciate a sunrise, sunset, mountain top, good meal, for the sake of the thing itself). The founders of Scouting felt, and I believe this as well, that most of the mainstream religions out there overall do more harm than good in that they teach the value of communication, networking, and integrating, with people who are (at least on the surface) of decent moral and ethical fiber.

    So before you worry you're sending your kid to a cult like Jesus Camp or something, just know that it isn't about religion, it's that they feel religion (or spirituality in general) has a more positive than negative effects.

    NOW... that said, it is YOUR responsibility as a parent to ensure your kid isn't in a troop with a bigoted or otherwise unhealthy influence on your child. Someone doesn't magically become a better person for the uniform, you need to become involved in the Scout Troop and make sure the other scoutmasters are people you are comfortable having around your child. Some of them may be nutty religious and some may be complete atheists, but overall, see where the power is in the troop and what the predominant view is. Most large metropolitan areas have multiple troops available with multiple leanings, and you can always charter your own troop as well.

    I will also say this. I was the Troop Chaplain for 4 years straight. I had no religious affiliation, and during much of that time, I alternated between not believing in God and not being very fond of God. The Chaplain of a troop conducts an optional Sunday service on Campouts. Your boy doesn't have to go if he doesn't want to, but most do because it's a nice time to just sit, reflect, and relax. I never preached fire and brimstone. My goal was to get people thinking, not reciting. What I usually gave the sermons on was philosophy and the ideas of unity within the troop and patrol (the subgroups troops are broken into), and a reverence for nature. These are not things I feel are unhealthy to have.

    Now, one more thing I feel compelled to mention. I have zero right to tell you how to raise your child. If you want to isolate them from any and all religious exposure, that is your choice as a parent. However, I feel this would be detrimental to your child's development. While I am not a fan of any organized religion, I learned a lot about history, people, and the world from every religion I encounter. As long as you have raised your son to think for themselves, if they want to take part in a religion, or test it out, you should not force your views upon them by denying them that experience, especially when it's such a mild one.

    All that said, I do live in Texas, it is the buckle of the Bible Belt, and we did meet at a Church, and it was a predominantly Christian crowd. However, since you could say that about just about any crowd in any building. There is an old saying "if you dine at the King's table, then you must sing the King's song." Scouts is not a moneymaking organization. Every troop I know except for the richest ones are barely scraping by. Churches typically have the facilities rent-free, along with equipment and storage areas that they don't mind the Scout Troops using. So tossing a few pro-God phrases in their literature is to be expected. It does not, I repeat, mean the troop is of any particular religion or that the members are of any particular religion or not.




    Originally posted by I See You
    "The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God." Boy Scouts of America, Bylaws.

    "No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should have religion."

    "The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God....The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training."


    The Scout Law: A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obediant, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

    A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

    A reverence towards God can mean something as major as appreciating the unspoiled beauty of a virgin forest to as minor as saying a million and one Hail Mary's. Your religious duties may be something as incredible as making sure you are there for a friend in their time of need, or as minor as going to church. Your respect of other's beliefs is not limited to respecting that others feel the same way as you, but also recognizing that people who think differently are not neccessarily bad people. Mostly, though, the reverence is for nature, and all the wonder it holds. Something that mankind had no hand in building. Whether you are atheist, agnostic, or religious, one should have a healthy appreciation for the greatness of our Earth...



    Originally posted by I See You
    Here is a requirement for a badge: One of the requirements of the BSA personal fitness merit badge is answer and discuss with their counselor the question: "Are you actively involved in the religious organization of your choice and do you participate in their youth activities?"


    Yeah, and the answer can just as well be "No." As long as you have thought about your response to the question, it's not an issue. Most of the badges require some thought be put into them. There's no harm in asking a child to think about religion and why the choose to participate in it or not. It is a valid question, and even though it is of a personal nature, part of Scouts is about survival, and survival doesn't always involve tact. When you're trapped out in the woods, with no food or water, and it looks like you could survive if you abandoned the weaker members of your troop, you need to know that the decision you're making is not just one of practicality, but also of ethics and morals, something that most parents are loathe to teach their children, something they certainly do not pick up in school, and something that they usually get a skewed viewpoint on in organized religion. However, those choices are what differentiates a troop from, say, a pack of wolves, and those moral and ethical choices could have a direct impact on the survival of your mates.

    (Continued in Next Post)

    [edit on 10/2/2006 by thelibra]



  • posted on Oct, 2 2006 @ 10:19 AM
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    Originally posted by I See You
    Also any homosexuals cannot be in the BSA and will be terminated. Why do we teach our young children to discriminate at such a young age?


    I'm of a split mind about this, but I think it is their right to disallow it, or to have a "don't ask, don't tell" mentality. It's not about discrimination. I never once saw an anti-gay message in scouting. If anything, the uniform itself just SCREAMS "Fabulous!"

    The problem with homosexuals boys in Boy Scouts is the same reason with having heterosexual girls in Boys Scouts. There are a lot of situations that would be very uncomfortable with overt sexual tension involved, such as sleeping together in a tent, changing, showering, swimming sans suit, etc. It's not that they feel gays are any less worthwhile than the rest of the world, in fact most of our troop were in favor of more men becoming gay because it meant less competition for the straight women out there. The problem is that you've got a large number of children, whom have all either are about to hit or have already hit puberty, and have raging hormones, are still immature and ignorant enough to do very stupid things, in a situation where privacy is a rarity.

    To be perfectly honest, I think a homosexual boy could do just as well within the scouts as a heterosexual one, so long as they were mature enough to keep from letting any latent attraction affect their performance within the troop (lives are often on the line), and provided the boys in the troop were mature enough to deal with someone having a different preference than themselves. But let's be honest. We're not talking about mature adults, we're talking about 11-18 year old boys, whom, let's face it, are usually dumber than posts.

    I think a better choice for the "outed" homosexual boy or girl would be "Explorer Scouts", whom consist of both young men and women, usually 18-21 years of age, whom are more mature, and able to handle the sexual tension involved in a mixed crowd. Since one cannot advance in rank in the BSA past age 18, a lot of them who want to continue the survival and camping continue on to become involved in Explorer Scouts.



    Originally posted by I See You
    Needless to say that my son and I will find an alternate experience for ourselves without the worries and discrimination and without any forced information.


    Then I feel very sorry for your son, that you would force such a choice upon them. How about instead, you do a little more research than just a few lines from a pamplet? I think it is grossly unfair of you to judge the BSA from an ignorant standpoint, and equally unfair that you should disallow your child the opportunity to become an Eagle Scout because of your religious or personal beliefs (without even investigating the troops). Please, visit a couple of scout troops. Watch their meetings, and keep in mind that not every troop is the same. These aren't robots cranked out by some rote and manual, they are human beings who basically want to camp together, learn how to survive, and build some moral fiber along the way. That's REALLY NOT a bad thing.

    Now, finally, I want to say this. As an Eagle Scout, I have had more doors opened to me than even a college degree could have provided. I've gotten jobs handed to me, despite being less qualified and less experienced, because I was an Eagle Scout. I have been given a degree of preferential treatment that is usually enjoyed only by ex-military. Why?

    Because anyone can suffer through 4 years of college to get a piece of paper. It takes serious time, effort, dedication, force of will, and even a good degree of your own blood, sweat, and tears to attain the rank of Eagle Scout. It takes an enormous amount of maturity, leadership abilites, and survival skills that you cannot generally gain anywhere else in the world, at least not all under one organization. I'm not saying this to try and make myself out to be some sort of uber hero, I'm saying that the BSA gave me more training in real-world skills than any other institution I've been in. And I've been in a lot.

    What has the Scouts taught me?

  • Communication Skills - I can pretty much get a dialogue going with anyone, any time, any place, and get my point across in an efficient manner, because I was forced to learn that skill in order to survive in the wilderness. This has had a tremendous impact on my relationship with coworkers, friends, family, wife, neighbors, and internet forums.

  • Survival Skills - Given a pocket knife and a canteen full of water, I can survive in damn near any forest, indefinitely. I know how to procure fresh water, food, shelter, make fire, and navigate without the aid of a map or compass.

  • Leadership Skills - I've lead the entire troop for months at a time, and on special projects as well. I had to organize and mobilize over 100 boys and men on a regular basis, in situations where lives were on the line, on a regular basis, and always have and implement contingency plans when things went wrong, which they always did. I learned how to get others to do what needed to be done, regardless of their personal feelings, while at the same time making them feel like a valued contributing member of the team, and how to adjust my techniques per each person's needs.

  • Emergency Skills - I know how to save lives. I know how to apply first aid. I know how to save a drowning person, what to do when I get them to shore, how to perform CPR, how to apply the heimlich maneuver, how to carry an unconscious person from harm's way, when to move them, when not to move them, I can even make a life preserver out of my pants! I couldn't tell you exactly how many lives I've saved because I try to never allow most people under my care to get into a situation unprepared. However, I can say that it is probably on the order of ten or more by now, and have applied first aid to hundreds. On the scene of an accident, I usually know exactly what to do.

  • Miscellaneous Skills and Education - Although they're the subject of many a joke, the merit badges in BSA are about the equivolent of a college semester in the subject matter. If you have good leadership in the troop, you WILL have to learn that subject inside and out, and demonstrate that knowledge through practical application as well as discussion. I learned about everything from nuclear energy to carpentry as a result of all the badges I had to earn, and I REGULARLY use all these things in my day to day life. They have given me a well-rounded education in so many subjects I can find some form of common ground with just about anyone.


    Notice how none of those things mention my relationship with God. Now, you might be capable of teaching your kids all the above skills, but I know very few people who are as qualified in each of those areas as an Eagle Scout is, and I know of only a few non-profit organizations that offer such a broad and intensive education in so many fields. Please reconsider your stance on the Boy Scouts of America, and even if you still decide it's a "no," then at least do not condemn their worth for a few stupid words on paper.



  • posted on Oct, 2 2006 @ 10:24 AM
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    Originally posted by shihulud
    I have to agree with I SEE YOU on this. The BSA should not be restricting access to anyone whether they be gay, bisexual, atheist or atherwise. This is due to the FACT that they receive public funding. Now correct me if I'm wrong but the public is everyone including atheists and gays so why should these people be MADE pay for something that they're not allowed to join?
    To put it another way, what if everyone was made pay for a group that selected its members as had to be non-christian - how long would that last?


    G


    That is not your decision to make, nor the original posters.

    The constitution allows us to discriminate against who ever we want, the Scouts do not wants gays and atheist (although I was an atheist Scout and no one had a problem with me?) that is their policy. Like I tell other people, you cannot join a group as a minority and expect every one to bow down to your way of thinking, it just doesnt work. Start the Homosexual Scouts or something if you want to, make an Atheist Scout Troop if you want, im sure lots of parents will have their kids lined up to join.



    posted on Oct, 2 2006 @ 10:47 AM
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    thelibra
    Excelent post and it will get a Way Above from me.
    I was a Scout leader for 10 years with my children and it was some of the best time the boys and I had in life. I would encourage everyone to participate and make it what you want it to be because in 10 years we never kicked any child out if they were Athiest because it really is not about that. We never cared what religion someone was it was more about having the values of honesty and loyalty and community spirit. We had one child whose mother was gay and we knew that but there was no need for that to ever be a issue because she would come and participate in events and such just like every other parent and she loved her young man just like the rest of us and that is all it is about.



    posted on Oct, 2 2006 @ 11:05 AM
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    Originally posted by factfinder38
    thelibra
    Excelent post and it will get a Way Above from me.


    Hey, thanks man. I appreciate it. What I appreciate even more, though, is what you say next...



    Originally posted by factfinder38
    We never cared what religion someone was it was more about having the values of honesty and loyalty and community spirit. We had one child whose mother was gay and we knew that but there was no need for that to ever be a issue because she would come and participate in events and such just like every other parent and she loved her young man just like the rest of us and that is all it is about.


    Exactly! We had a couple of kids in the troop who were, I am about 90% certain, gay. It never came up. We had atheists, agnostics, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, and Christians. Now, most of the kids were Christians, like probably a good 80%, but religion really never came up. We were meeting in a Church gymnasium for the weekly meeting, but it could have been a warehouse for all we cared or were aware of, we just needed a large indoor place with air conditioning and enough space for boys to run around in.

    Basically, in a nutshell, one's religious and sex life were what happened outside the troop. When you're gone two-weeks out in the woods, hundreds of miles away from the nearest hospital, surviving only on what you and your mates can carry, no one gives a damn what race, creed, color, religion, or prefernce the person next to you is. What matters is results, just like in "real" life.



    posted on Oct, 3 2006 @ 11:28 AM
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    It will not teach your kid anything they really need to survive, and frankly, as a man, you're most likely


    Firstly this statement is quite possibly the most sexist and irrelevant statement so far.
    Many of the Fathers of the members of the pack and troop to thich I belonged were military. And in the era of Us boomers the phrase " dont ask,dont tell" has a much different meaning.





    When you're trapped out in the woods, with no food or water, and it looks like you could survive if you abandoned the weaker members of your troop, you need to know that the decision you're making is not just one of practicality,


    obviously this question is of the late model I institution. It has no resemblense to the convictions I learned 40 yrs. ago and carried over into Military service. The conviction that many carried in that time .

    YOU DONT LEAVE A BUDDY BEHIND.

    If you get out they get out.




    The problem is that you've got a large number of children, whom have all either are about to hit or have already hit puberty, and have raging hormones, are still immature and ignorant enough to do very stupid things, in a situation where privacy is a rarity.


    And this is because their Parents either wont take the time , cant be bothered to take the time, or dont have the testicular fortitude to actually discuss these subjects with their children.

    To be fair there are a number of Parents who would like to impart their feelings and sense of tolerance to their children but fear to do so for fear of being reported to Child Protective Services and haveing their lives invaded by these communistic, dictatorial cockroaches.

    IMO the only slime, abomination of Nature worse than a CPS worker is a flippin Dog catcher. The only reason they become a dog catcher is they dont have the balls to be a real Cop. The only reason a person ( and I use that term Verry loosly) goes to work for CPS is that they are themselves mentally deficiant , suffer from a Napolean complex and have dillusions of granduer.



    posted on Oct, 3 2006 @ 11:48 AM
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    thelibra,
    Thank you for shedding light on the Boy Scoust for other people. I just have to point out that I started out as a Tiger Cub and made it all the way to Eagle Scout, along with at least 5 other people I know, so it does happen. People should know that many famous people including Neil Armstrong, Steven Spielberg, and there are a ton more, are Eagle Scouts.

    It was a great experience for me and I do not have a problem with any of their policies, because they can do what they want to because they are a private organization.



    posted on Oct, 3 2006 @ 12:04 PM
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    Stalkingwolf
    Were you stoned when you wrote this because it is off topic babble. At Best.


    Perhaps if your reading comprehension abilities were as high as your opinion of yourself
    and your opinions of your comidic abilities You would not need to post this question.

    next time I will try to use single Syllable words to accomodate your lack of comprehension skills.



    posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 02:58 AM
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    Thank You, that would be good.



    posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 07:41 AM
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    Stalkingwolf. I am going to reply to your email in courteous fashion. However, I do not appreciate the way you jumped down Factfinder's throat, nor the derailing of the thread about an unrelated issue. From your registration date, I can see you've been here long enough to know better. Please consider thinking twice before you leap to personal attacks in the future. Now, on with the reply...


    Originally posted by stalkingwolf



    It will not teach your kid anything they really need to survive, and frankly, as a man, you're most likely


    Firstly this statement is quite possibly the most sexist and irrelevant statement so far.


    When taken out of context like that, it certainly would look that way. Please allow me to educate you on the finer points of context. My original paragraph read as follows:

    "Okay, meh... don't worry about Cub Scouts. Really. It will not teach your kid anything they really need to survive, and frankly, as a man, you're most likely going to have very little in common with the Den Mothers anyway. Well, I'm assuming you're a man. You could be the boy's mother."

    Now, granted, I was making the assumption that the OP was a man, and could still be wrong about this. However, having been a Den Chief myself, and having a good number of decades under my belt trying to bridge that communication gap between men and women, I assure you that my statement was not meant in a sexist fashion, nor did I mean to imply that women do not have survival skills. Nor did I wish to denigrate the Cub Scouts as a youth organization. It's a fine way to keep one's child occupied for an evening. It is not, however, an organization on the same level as Boy Scouts as far as preparation for real-life and survival.



    Originally posted by stalkingwolf
    Many of the Fathers of the members of the pack and troop to thich I belonged were military.


    Ditto. In fact, all of them were either Marines or Army, except for the one Air Force father, who caught the brunt of the good-natured ribbing from the other two groups. I suspect that in many troops, at least a handful of the fathers are ex-military.



    Originally posted by stalkingwolf


    When you're trapped out in the woods, with no food or water, and it looks like you could survive if you abandoned the weaker members of your troop, you need to know that the decision you're making is not just one of practicality,


    obviously this question is of the late model I institution. It has no resemblense to the convictions I learned 40 yrs. ago and carried over into Military service. The conviction that many carried in that time .

    YOU DONT LEAVE A BUDDY BEHIND.

    If you get out they get out.


    (sigh) Again, you've taken me out of context. I really wish people did more than just skim my posts. Bravo on your military service. It is a shame they did not teach you better comprehension skills.

    I was in no way, shape, or form, implying that you should leave your buddies behind when convenient, or even when it is dire. Perhaps I was too obscure in my wording, but what I was hopefully trying to convey was that the sense of YOU DON'T LEAVE A BUDDY BEHIND is not one that mankind is inherently born with. It is a learned, not an instinctual response, and one of the few organizations that teach this rather vital rule of survival is the Boy Scouts of America. I hope my position is now clearer to you, and that you realize we are actually agreeing with each other on this point.



    Originally posted by stalkingwolf


    The problem is that you've got a large number of children, whom have all either are about to hit or have already hit puberty, and have raging hormones, are still immature and ignorant enough to do very stupid things, in a situation where privacy is a rarity.


    And this is because their Parents either wont take the time , cant be bothered to take the time, or dont have the testicular fortitude to actually discuss these subjects with their children.


    I do not entirely agree with you here. Now, I fully agree 250% that parents need to be more involved with their children, more communicative, and more...parent-like...than they typically are nowadays. However, you need to remember that kids aren't adults. As a rule, they lack the experience, the emotional and mental stability, the physical coordination and balance, and the survivalistic apathy that gets adults through day to day life. Now I realize that there are absolutely exceptions to the rule, and that being an adult in no way guarentees these advantages, but overall, as a rule, adults are better equipped to handle what might otherwise be an awkward situation. Even a child with good parents is still a child, mentally, physically, and emotionally, and is apt to do very foolish things.



    Originally posted by stalkingwolf
    IMO the only slime, abomination of Nature worse than a CPS worker is a flippin Dog catcher.


    I'm sorry that you were so wronged by CPS and Dog Catchers in the past. I can only imagine what happens to a man who has not only his child, but also his best friend taken away from him. However, I believe you may have condemned the many for the few.

    Having used to be a preschool teacher, I occasionally had to work with or speak with CPS. For the most part, they are very good people who have a low paying, thankless job that breaks their heart on a daily basis. Every single day, between bouts of having to investigate some of the most sickening crimes humans are capable of, they must choose between a sobbing parent who begs for the return of their child, and the terrified child who threatens to kill themselves if returned home. They are even more at risk than Repo Men because, while people are willing to let a car go, especially when they know they're in the wrong for not paying for it, most of them would die to protect their child and will never be convinced their child is better off without them. This is not to say that all CPS workers are entirely without fault, and I'm certain that some do abuse their power, just as any other profession does. The vast majority, though, are just people who wanted to try and keep a kid from being molested or beaten to death, and are, for the most part, hated as a result.

    The same goes for Dogcatchers, IMO. For a long time in my teens, we lived next door to a city animal control worker. They weren't a cruel person intent on stealing dogs, or bent on shooting any critter that moved. They were a licensed veternarian whom truly wanted to try and keep critters out of harm's way. They made every attempt with their meager budget to try and return the animal to its rightful owner, to the point of, once having captured the animal, knocking on a few nearby doors to see if anyone recognized it as being someone's pet. Usually they had to take the animal to the pound, where they hoped someone would show up to claim the animal, or that a new family would show up and adopt them... but there is only so much space, and so much time before that space is filled, and the hapless creature must be destroyed if a no-kill shelter cannot be located. That's a sad fact of life with the vast overpopulation of dogs and cats, and the neglect of their owners. Again, I'm sure there's a few animal control officers out there whom abuse their power and the animals too, but for the most part, they're decent folk doing a risky job, and doing more to try and take care of an animal than the actual owner. If you really want to fault someone, fault the owner that fails to get their pet fixed, fails to put a collar or chip on them, fails to keep a close enough eye on them to keep them on the property, and then fails to show up to collect that pet once it has arrived at the pound.

    Now... if you have no further questions, Stalkingwolf, I'd like to return the attention of this thread towards the actual topic at hand, which is the Boy Scouts.



    posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 09:10 AM
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    I am going to reply to your email in courteous fashion.


    email? not sure what email you are refering to. from your post I will guess
    that you were refering to my post in this thread.



    (sigh) Again, you've taken me out of context. I really wish people did more than just skim my posts. Bravo on your military service. It is a shame they did not teach you better comprehension skills.

    perhap your skills in articulation of an idea could use a bit of work?



    posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 09:19 AM
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    Wow... that's the best you could come up with? After all the time I took to address your rather abrasive concerns in a courteous fashion, your reply consists entirely of yet another insult aimed at the fact I said "email" instead of "post".

    Stalkingwolf, I have no further use for you, and no further desire to waste my time thinking about your inane drivel.

    (ignore).

    Folks, this is what defines a troll and ATS is worse off for his presence.



    [edit on 10/4/2006 by thelibra]



    posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 11:09 AM
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    Stalkingwolf and thelibra and anyone else.

    The subject of this thread is the BSA and how it invovles religion. Stick to the topic. Stop insulting each other.


    Originally posted by I See You
    Also any homosexuals cannot be in the BSA and will be terminated. Why do we teach our young children to discriminate at such a young age?

    Thats really up to the people joining no? The organization uses religion to teach its 'values'. Religion is one of its 'values' infact, so why do you want to even join it?


    Needless to say that my son and I will find an alternate experience for ourselves without the worries and discrimination and without any forced information.

    Well, good for you. But its really up to the people that run the Boy Scouts to decide how the Boy Scouts are run, no? I mean, your complaint is kind of like complaining about them pushing jesus in sunday school no?


    guess if you believe in god it's ok to do these things but it's wrong to me.

    Its wrong for a group of people that are religious to involve their religion in their activities?


    To put it another way, what if everyone was made pay for a group that selected its members as had to be non-christian - how long would that last?

    DO you honestly think that a Muslim Students Association at a public university would be required to admit non-muslims in order to receive funds?


    thelibra
    The problem with homosexuals boys in Boy Scouts is the same reason with having heterosexual girls in Boys Scouts.

    Hell, both those organizations are already discriminating on the basis of sex in the first place, excluding gays, while I personally think its wrong, is, if anything, a much smaller offense.

    frankly, as a man, you're most likely going to have very little in common with the Den Mothers anyway.

    Indeed, throughout societies across the world, there are 'mens' organizations. THe sexes are different, and men relate to one another under a different standard of norms and social conventions than men and women relate to each other with, and the same goes for interactions between women. There's nothing inherently wrong with men's groups and women's groups, just like there is nothing inherently wrong with co-ed groups.

    Personally, I'd think that you could infact work the values of the boyscouts into a coed group, but, of course, you'd have to be a lunatic to send your daughter off into the woods to sleep in a tent with a bunch of boys.


    thelibra
    . How about instead, you do a little more research than just a few lines from a pamplet? I think it is grossly unfair of you to judge the BSA from an ignorant standpoint

    Why should he stick his kid in with a group that thinks homosexuality is wrong and immoral and that atheism is also?
    I can at least understand a group of beleivers wanting to exclude atheists from an organization that uses religion to instill its values (and therefore doesn't necessarily think that there is something wrong with atheists, but merely disagrees with them). But the exclusion of gays, is largely based on gay being 'wrong'.
    Why shouldn't a person choose not to participate in that sort of organization?


    Notice how none of those things mention my relationship with God.

    The camping 'skills' are the format, but the core values within the BSA are god and country. This is less emphasized today, because god and country aren't so popular nowadays. But the organization teaches morality and character with religion.



    posted on Oct, 4 2006 @ 12:28 PM
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    Originally posted by Nygdan
    Stalkingwolf and thelibra and anyone else.

    The subject of this thread is the BSA and how it invovles religion. Stick to the topic. Stop insulting each other.


    I don't really appreciate being lumped in the same category as a troll, when I was the one attempting to be courteous. However, I've already got him on ignore, so it's not like I'll be distracted by him again.

    Anyway, to address your points:


    Originally posted by Nygdan
    Hell, both those organizations are already discriminating on the basis of sex in the first place, excluding gays, while I personally think its wrong, is, if anything, a much smaller offense.


    I don't quite follow. What was the other organization besides Boy Scouts?



    Originally posted by Nygdan
    Personally, I'd think that you could infact work the values of the boyscouts into a coed group, but, of course, you'd have to be a lunatic to send your daughter off into the woods to sleep in a tent with a bunch of boys.


    Ummm... in my original really long 2-post wossname, I discussed Explorer Scouts. As it turns out, that group was replaced long after I ceased to be a member of any Scout Troop. They now go by "Venture Scouts", and include both men and women, and presumably could thus care less about sexual preference.

    www.scouting.org...



    Originally posted by Nygdan
    Why should he stick his kid in with a group that thinks homosexuality is wrong and immoral and that atheism is also?


    That's a rather slanted question, Nygdan. I spent nearly 20,000 characters worth of time and effort to explain that the Scouts does not in fact think homosexuality and atheism is "wrong". That there are certainly some troops that feel that way overall, and there are some troops that really could care less what religion or preference you are. And had the OP done any real research into Scouting, such as visiting a few different Troops and observing an organization before passing judgment, then he might have been able to see that.



    Originally posted by Nygdan
    But the exclusion of gays, is largely based on gay being 'wrong'. Why shouldn't a person choose not to participate in that sort of organization?


    No, it's not about it being wrong. It's about the fact that you really don't need to add sexual tension to an already very hard to control situation among a large group of kids who don't neccessarily have the maturity to handle an awkward situation in the most appropriate manner. The scouts aren't a bunch of judges going around swinging bibles and pointing at heretics, and I really don't appreciate the implication that they are. I don't know how to make that any more clear.


    Originally posted by Nygdan
    The camping 'skills' are the format, but the core values within the BSA are god and country. This is less emphasized today, because god and country aren't so popular nowadays. But the organization teaches morality and character with religion.


    No, it's not. God and Country get mentioned a lot, but it's not what BSA is about. It's about communication, survival, training, and learning to be basically a reliable person in time of need.

    Have you ever been a scout, Nygdan? I'm guessing either the answer is "No", or that you were in a truly awful troop. If you haven't, I really would appreciate it if you stopped making these kind of misstatements as if they were fact. I will not deny that some troops are all GOD, COUNTRY, USA RIGHT OR WRONG, etc... but those are on the individual troop level, and not the organization as a whole. It's a frickin' international organization, for crying out loud.



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