Unstoppable - Russian next gen stealth hypersonic ramjet/scramjet cruise/anti-ship missiles.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Google Video Link

Thats the Phalanx which is American made with an American made radar.

Dig. i seen them highlighted on a TV show eons ago when I still watched TV, but couldn't remember the name of them awhile back when I was trying to see if they had those things in Washington during 9/11. That video only says "anti-everything".

Originally posted by Iblis
a. No mirror. In existence. Can reflect a laser 100%.

The thought that a mirror always reflects a laser is quite an urban legend.

it does only partially , thus reducing the overall effectiveness of laser

a. No mirror. In existence. Can reflect a laser 100%.

true

thanks for not launching personal attacks , it irritates me ...and good sources you put up on lasers kudos

ignoranceisntbliss posted:

That brings the cost of titanium into question, and if DARPA's titanium for $4 per pound works out, I'm sure the Russians would get ahold of the process.

from what i know during soviet era , soviets were leaders in titanium production and titanim welding industry

[edit on 22-4-2007 by vK_man]

No doubt, this is because the Russian's also controlled a relative, extreme wealth and abundance of the stuff. With such an enormous military application, they experimented, and had successes quite frequently.

As for the mirrors -- Could they reduce the LASERs intensity? Yes.
For anything more than seconds? No.
Would the mirror survive the initial launch? Not likely.

What should also be pointed out is that these stress fractures, and minor flaws in the mirror that would accompany the kinetic and thermal distress would amplify the damage done to them by the laser. Think of a broken mirror deflecting such a strong laser as a broken knee deflecting a sledge-hammer.

In the end, the efficiency and cost would, without a doubt in my mind, turn military thinkers away from such an idea.

IT'S HIS OPINION! He merely cherry picked his way to formulate his conclusion! It has no data backing, you took what he said and ran with it as if it were the bible, no questions asked on your part,

except for the fact many in the world share the same opinion that americans are arrogant and stupid:
check this out:
www.gold-eagle.com...
www.watchingyou.com...
and this one a very funny one on american stupidity :
www.romankoch.ch...

money.cnn.com...

i deliberately quoted nyquist as he was a DIA analyst and a american himself

making you sir, the naive person!

above proof shows you are naive and do not know what others think of USA ...

"Dont bring a knife to a gun fight" is a saying that we say in the states.

Guns must not be present in India, Or at the very least the full knowledge of how much more superior a weapon such as a gun is to a knife....

are you a moron???
did you analyse what i said ????
what i mean is it depends on the person who welds the weapon and how he uses it ... and how handles it .... what ultimately depends is the intelligience of the person and how he handles it .... don't be blind....
and this is the fifth time i got such a reaction on something like this from an american ... first time i got it on bharat rakhsak forum ...

You know what? I'm beginning to think all those nifty lil secrets the russians have are going to be well known by the US military brass since alls one needs to do is look them up on the internet. (I wrote that laughing at you by the way!)

except i am laughhing on your source on american underground city and grey aliens(shows your credibelity ) ...
by the way yamantau has been a well discussed issue (want to check it out ) and verified not like your grey alien nonsense:
from reputed sources :
globalsecurity:
www.globalsecurity.org...
from the federation of american secientists:

Moscow builds bunkers against nuclear attack;
Subway to Yeltsin house in works

Bill Gertz

Russia is continuing a Cold War-era program to build deep underground bunkers, subways and command posts to help Moscow's leaders flee the capital and survive a nuclear attack, The Washington Times has learned. Among the ambitious projects: a secret subway being built directly to the residence of Russian President Boris Yeltsin outside Moscow. "The underground construction appears larger than previously assessed," a CIA report labeled "top secret" reported two weeks ago. "Three decrees last year on an emergency planning authority under Yeltsin with oversight of underground facility construction suggest that the purpose of the Moscow-area projects is to maintain continuity of leadership during nuclear war."

A copy of the report was obtained by The Washington Times from defense sources. A CIA spokesman declined to comment. Disclosure of the secret multibillion-dollar construction program comes less than two weeks after President Clinton and Mr. Yeltsin agreed in Helsinki to extend the deadline for nuclear arms cuts under the START II treaty because of Russian concerns over "dismantlement costs."

U.S. officials said the Russian spending on strategic defenses, coupled with ongoing procurement of new strategic missiles and submarines, raises questions about Moscow's claims not to have funds needed to carry out START II reductions. The outlays also raise new worries among some U.S. officials about whether U.S. aid to Russia is allowing Moscow to spend its money on building new strategic forces and facilities. "How can the United States be so gullible to accept Russian claims that it doesn't have the money to comply with START II when it's made the decision to modernize its forces and build these underground facilities?" asked one U.S. government defense official.

According to the CIA report, construction work is continuing on a "nuclear-survivable, strategic command post at Kosvinsky Mountain," located deep in the Ural Mountains about 850 miles east of Moscow. Satellite photographs of Yamantau Mountain, also located about 850 miles east of Moscow in the Urals near the town of Beloretsk, show continued digging at the "deep underground complex" and new construction at each of the site's above-ground support areas, the CIA stated. Yamantau Mountain means "Evil Mountain" in the local Bashkir langauge.
www.fas.org...

ABOUT NSA'S INTEREST IN YAMANTAU:

President Goofy's Talk With Putin About "Magic Mountain"

NSA's overriding interest in a Soviet-era underground mountain complex apparently caught the interest of George W. Bush. In a closed zone near the city of Mezhgorye in the Russian Republic of Bashkortostan, north of the Kazakhstan border, is a huge underground facility embedded deep within Yamantau Mountain in the Urals Range. Yamantau is Bashkir for "Evil Mountain." What amazes NSA is the absence of noticeable telecommunications support facilities for the complex, believed to be an alternate "doomsday" command center for the Russian government and military in the event of a nuclear, biological, or chemical attack. Costing over $7 billion, the complex is supported by 60,000 workers who live in the nearby towns of Beloretsk and Tirlyanskiy. The Yamantau Mountain Complex covers an area of some 400 square miles. Construction of the mammoth facility began during the 1970s and the Leonid Brezhnev administration. To maintain operational security and prevent future leaks, the Soviets hired workers from different parts of the USSR to perform individual tasks.

The neo-conservatives in the Bush administration and Congress, particularly Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, UN ambassador nominee John Bolton, and Representatives Curt Weldon (R-PA) and Roscoe Bartlett (R-MD), have been pressuring the NSA and other intelligence agencies to come up with the goods on Yamantau. Wasting precious resources that could be used to combat terrorism, the intelligence agencies have been ordered to make Yamantau a top priority. The secrecy of the complex's telecommunications methods has resulted in NSA coming up empty-handed.

MANY BELIEVE ITS A NUKE FACILITY
continued...

Originally posted by Iblis
No doubt, this is because the Russian's also controlled a relative, extreme wealth and abundance of the stuff. With such an enormous military application, they experimented, and had successes quite frequently.

As for the mirrors -- Could they reduce the LASERs intensity? Yes.
For anything more than seconds? No.
Would the mirror survive the initial launch? Not likely.

What should also be pointed out is that these stress fractures, and minor flaws in the mirror that would accompany the kinetic and thermal distress would amplify the damage done to them by the laser. Think of a broken mirror deflecting such a strong laser as a broken knee deflecting a sledge-hammer.

In the end, the efficiency and cost would, without a doubt in my mind, turn military thinkers away from such an idea.

As for the mirrors -- Could they reduce the LASERs intensity? Yes.

true ...

What should also be pointed out is that these stress fractures, and minor flaws in the mirror that would accompany the kinetic and thermal distress would amplify the damage done to them by the laser. Think of a broken mirror deflecting such a strong laser as a broken knee deflecting a sledge-hammer.

moreso the kinetic stress , its its the explosive effect which matters more than the thermal effect in case of lasers , and yes , other things like mass , velocity or the spin of the missile and thermal materials used in construction matter, its the reflective nature of the material used matters

and yes no missile can use pure mirrors please remember this , particularly if the missile spins , it dissipates energy of the laser, this is one of the principles used in topol m

For anything more than seconds? No

, thats some what debatable ,but yes in case the missile is made of alminium and is supersonic tactical missile or munition like scud or smerch ,your analysis is correct,

Lasers are becoming more powerful. Open literature typically does not discuss the real power of modern lasers, as this is usually a closely guarded military secret. It can be assumed that they are very powerful: not enough to vaporise an army tank, perhaps, but powerful and practical enough to cut aluminium panels of aircraft from long range, or to penetrate modern body armour and inflict fatal wounds; else the military would have realized the technological limitations and stopped this expensive research.
en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 22-4-2007 by vK_man]

continued...
from wiki:

Mount Yamantaw is in the Ural Mountains, Bashkortostan, Russia. The name means bad mount is the Bashkir language. It is also known as Mount Yamantau. It is suspected by the United States of being a large secret nuclear facility and/or bunker.
Large excavation projects have been observed by U.S. satellite imagery as recently as the late 1990's, after the fall of the Soviet Union. Two cities Beloretsk-15 and Belorestsk-16, are built on top of the facility, and possibly a third, Alkino-2, as well. They are said to house 30,000 workers each. Repeated U.S. questions have yielded twelve different responses from the Russian government regarding Mount Yamantaw. They have said it is a mining site, a repository for Russian treasures, a food storage area, and a bunker for leaders in case of nuclear war.

The facility is designed to withstand up to six direct thermonuclear hits in the event of an attack. Large rail lines run into and out of the mountain. It is rumored that a direct private subway line from Moscow has been constructed to Mount Yamantaw, for the transportation of government officials and others who would be useful in a post-nuclear environment, such as nuclear scientists. In the event of nuclear war, scientists at Mount Yamantaw would be able to construct and launch new nuclear weapons, a key part of the former Soviet Union's nuclear strategy.

Mount Yamantaw is near one of Russia's last remaining nuclear labs, Chelyabinsk-70, raising speculation that it already houses nuclear weapons. Russian newspapers reported in 1996 that it is a part of the "Dead Hand" nuclear retaliatory command structure. Some U.S. intelligence sources say Mount Yamantaw is only one of 200 secret Russian nuclear bases upgraded over the past six years.

On a visit to Russia, Congressman Curt Weldon (R-PA), who had been following the story since 1995, asked about the mountain. "I went to Moscow and spoke with the deputy interior minister who was in charge of mining," Weldon said. "I asked him if there was any mining activity there. He just shook his head and said he had never heard of it. So I mentioned the other name the Russians use for it: Mezhgorye. He said he hadn't heard of that either. Then he sent an aide out to check. Twenty minutes later, the aide came back, visibly shaken. He said they couldn't say anything about it."
en.wikipedia.org...

Its a well written article with well formulated, researched opinions based on economic data

opinion??? american???
the economic data takes into considerATION STATIC not dynamic factors .
laughable
i know american opinion , they had predicting collapse of india sinvce 1950 ....

And you post an Al jazeera website reference? The Dollar has been johnny on the spot for a long time..

so you also suffer from that al jazerra bias..
please read:

The original Al Jazeera channel was started in 1996 with a US$150 million grant from the Emir of Qatar, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa.

In April 1996, the BBC World Service's Saudi-co-owned Arabic language TV station, faced with censorship demands by the Saudi Arabian government, shut down after two years of operation. Many former BBC World Service staff members joined Al Jazeera, which at the time was not yet on air. The channel began broadcasting in late 1996.[2]

Al Jazeera's availability (via satellite) throughout the Middle East changed the television landscape of the region. Prior to the arrival of Al Jazeera, many Middle Eastern citizens were unable to watch TV channels other than state-censored national TV stations. Al Jazeera introduced a level of freedom of speech on TV that was previously unheard of in many of these countries. Al Jazeera presented controversial views regarding the governments of many Persian Gulf states, including Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain and Qatar; it also presented controversial views about Syria's relationship with Lebanon, and the Egyptian judiciary. Critics accused Al Jazeera of sensationalism in order to increase its audience share. Al Jazeera's broadcasts have sometimes resulted in drastic action: For example, on 27 January 1999, Al Jazeera had critics of the Algerian government on during their live program El-Itidjah el-Mouakass (="The Opposite Direction"). The Algerian government cut the electricity supply to at least large parts of the capital Algiers (and allegedly to large parts of the country), to prevent the program from getting seen.[3][4][5] At that time, Al Jazeera was not yet generally known in the Western world, but where it was known, the opinion about it was often favourable[6] and Al Jazeera claimed to be the only politically independent television station in the Middle East. Al Jazeera's well-presented coverage of the Lebanese Civil War in 2000-2001 gave its viewer ratings a boost throughout the region. However, it wasn't until late 2001 that Al Jazeera achieved worldwide recognition, when it broadcast video statements by al-Qaeda leaders
en.wikipedia.org...

far better than that stupid CNN or fox news , but i say BBC is the best...
as for dollar its a falling currency ...

Also with the CIA predicting the breakup of the EU within 15 years time the euros future isnt looking so hot to say in the very least

CIA had been predicting the breakup of russia agains after 1991 and had predicted about india also

Meanwhile the yuan is currently weaker then the dollar... Stop you cherry picking and look at the facts

seems you fail to look up the facts,even a quant um hedge fund manager who worked said something similiar
:

NEW YORK (Reuters) - It's only a matter of time before the beleaguered U.S. dollar loses its status as the world's reserve currency and medium of exchange, U.S. fund manager and author Jim Rogers told Reuters in an interview.
"The dollar is a terribly flawed currency," said Rogers, who co-founded the Quantum hedge fund with billionaire investor George Soros in the 1970s.

He urged investors to switch to the Brazilian real and Chinese yuan instead.

"You should hold as few dollars as possible. The dollar's decline would go on for years to come," he added.
www.informationliberation.com...

the USSR collapse was imminent. It wasnt hard to predict. And Is the USA declining? Or are other nations getting richer thus closing the gap? Its nonsense really... People have been predicting the collapse of the US since its conception

many did not expect USSR ot collapse and gultang was the first one , an with usa asking other nations to fund its debt ...

Or are other nations getting richer thus closing the gap?

other nations are preapirng to abandon the sinking titanic USA

People have been predicting the collapse of the US since its conception

looking at your public and external debts and deficit , many economists think USA is waning and spending money uselessly on defence which could be used to save the economy
more reports on OPEC abandoning dollar (similiar to al jazeera):

OPEC ABANDONING THE U.S. DOLLAR AS OIL CURRENCY

OPEC Abandoning U.S. Dollar with potential dire consequences for the USA outlined in the TWO "Chatter Articles" below.

Oil-producing countries have reduced their dollar holdings to the lowest level in two years and shifted oil income into other currencies, according to the Bank for International Settlements.

Members of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries and Russia reduced their dollar holdings from 67 percent in the first quarter to 65 percent in the second quarter.

At the same time, they increased their holdings of euros from 20 percent to 22 percent, the BIS said. They also boosted holdings of the yen and British pound.

Eighteen months ago, the oil-producing countries’ exposure to the dollar was above 70 percent.

"The revelation in the latest BIS quarterly review … confirms market speculation about a move out of dollars and could put new pressure on the ailing U.S. currency," the Financial Times reports.

The BIS, the central bank for the developed world’s central banks, disclosed that OPEC’s dollar deposits fell by $5.3 billion, while euro and yen-denominated deposits rose $2.8 billion and $3.8 billion, respectively.

The last time oil-exporting countries reduced their exposure to the dollar — in late 2003 — it pushed the euro to an all-time high against the dollar.

The BIS noted: "While the data are not comprehensive, they do appear to indicate a modest shift over the quarter in the U.S. dollar share of reporting banks’ liabilities to oil exporting countries."

According to the Times, "the dollar has suffered weakness because of concerns about global imbalances and the future course of the Federal Reserve’s interest rate policy.

Note:

Even as the stock market is hitting new record highs almost every day, the Federal Reserve and Treasury Department are quietly coordinating a devaluation of the dollar that the Bush administration hopes will be a slow decline rather than a dollar collapse.

This week, in an unusual move, the Bush administration is sending virtually the entire economic "A-team" to visit China for a "strategic economic dialogue" in Beijing Dec. 14 and 15. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke are leading the delegation, along with five other cabinet-level officials, including Secretary of Commerce Carlos Gutierrez.

Also in the delegation will be Labor Secretary Elaine Chao, Health and Human Services Secretary Mike Leavitt, Energy Secretary Sam Bodman, and U.S. Trade Representative Susan Schwab. The Bush administration wants to get China's cooperation in preventing a dollar collapse.

That's the conclusion of John Williams, an experienced professional econometrician, who writes the "Shadow Government Statistics" blog.

Williams has re-created M3, a money-supply measure whose data the Federal Reserve simply stopped publishing after issuing a technically worded March 2006 announcement.

Williams reports M3 is currently growing at close to a 9.6 percent rate and trending higher, compared with an 8 percent rate early this year, when the Fed quit reporting the measure. "The Fed is pumping liquidity into the U.S. economy," Williams told WND, "and the Fed evidently did not want the markets to follow too closely what the Fed was doing with the money supply."

China today is holding a historically unprecedented $1 trillion in foreign exchange reserves. During the Thanksgiving holiday, an announcement by China that their central bank planned to diversify foreign-exchange holding away from the dollar caused the dollar to drop in value on international currency markets.

Since then, the dollar has hit a 20-month low against the euro.

"This was almost an orchestrated announcement," Williams claimed. "Around Thanksgiving the markets were thinly traded. I'm not sure who was playing games there, but the signal was clearly heard."

"You're dealing with mass psychology here," Williams argued. "The central bankers around the world know they are going to take a hit on their dollar holdings. None of the central bankers want to start a dollar panic, but none of the central bankers want to be the last out of the dollar, either."

Williams explained that the Federal Reserve is in a bind.

"Raising rates would kill any chance of avoiding a recession, but in terms of the dollar, we can't raise the rates fast enough when the dollar starts to slip quickly."

Are we experiencing a dollar collapse? "Not yet," Williams answered.

"I believe we're going to have a dollar collapse, but the Fed is going to do its best to slow play the dollar's decline in value, so that it takes a year or two for the dollar value to reach its low point."

Williams explained the risk of collapse the dollar faces: "There will be a central bank, most probably in Asia, who will start the move away from the dollar and when it happens, you're going to see other central bankers covertly trying to follow.

The move will magnify very quickly and it could become a full-fledged panic and a dollar collapse."

The Fed is struggling right now to contain inflation and stimulate economic growth. All the Fed is doing right now with all their grand policy shifts is using a lot of propaganda and market massaging to try to prevent a financial panic."

Recent reports have shown that U.S. gross domestic product growth slowed to 1.6% in the third quarter, the lowest in more than 3 years.

Will a declining dollar help narrow the U.S. trade deficit with China?

"You could take a 30 percent decline in the value of the dollar," Williams argued, "and it wouldn't make much of a dent in our trade deficit with China, not as long as Bush administration trade policy continues to be one-sided in favor of China."

"The Fed is faced with an impossible circumstance with the trade and budget deficits being run by the Bush administration," Williams told WND, "and they are just playing games with the markets and the public by not publishing M3, the broadest measure of money supply and the best indicator we have of long-term activity."

M3 is the broadest measure of the total money in the economy, including checking and savings accounts, cash, time deposits, and money-market funds.

Economist Milton Friedman, one of the key economists contributing to the conservative theories that led to the development of "Reaganomics," argued that money supply is a key measure correlated both with economic growth and inflation

Warren Buffet is betting over $10 billion the dollar will crash in 2007- he is right too often for this not to be a strong warning
noiri.blogspot.com...

[edit on 22-4-2007 by vK_man]

Originally posted by vK_man

IT'S HIS OPINION! He merely cherry picked his way to formulate his conclusion! It has no data backing, you took what he said and ran with it as if it were the bible, no questions asked on your part,

except for the fact many in the world share the same opinion that americans are arrogant and stupid

IT'S STILL AN OPINION! Arrogant? Stupid? Buddy I'll be the first to tell you I am arrogant. Arrogance breeds confidence, confidence breeds success, success breeds respect an envy. as far as Americans being 'stupid' as you so eloquently put it... 17 of the worlds top 20 university's disagrees with that assertion.

above proof shows you are naive and do not know what others think of USA ...

Is it because I dont know what others think, or is it because I dont care what others think? I can see the obvious still eludes you...

are you a moron???

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

did you analyse what i said ????

Buddy im not going to lie, what you said was retarded.... It made no sense.

what i mean is it depends on the person who welds the weapon and how he uses it ... and how handles it .... what ultimately depends is the intelligience of the person and how he handles it .... don't be blind....
and this is the fifth time i got such a reaction on something like this from an american ... first time i got it on bharat rakhsak forum ...

Ok peter pan. so why dont armys use knifes instead of rifles as there main infantry weapon? ...Maybe because knifes have become obsolete and you just dont know any better?...

except i am laughhing on your source on american underground city and grey aliens(shows your credibelity ) ...

HAH. hey buddy, those were the first ones that popped up. I didnt bother reading into them partly because I didnt care. And I lost credibility to you? Whoop-die-#ing-doo... You had no credibility to start with..

by the way yamantau has been a well discussed issue (want to check it out ) and verified not like your grey alien nonsense:
from reputed sources :
globalsecurity:
www.globalsecurity.org...
from the federation of american secientists:

'Underground' bunkers/bases are not so far fetched as one would believe. hell the Iranians have hollowed out underground nuclear facilitys... Anyways, I never contested russian underground bases, (even though you still have no solid proof) I was just pointing out your flawed logic that the US has neither the capabilities or the brains to make underground bases of their own...(As if you somehow know for a fact.)The US is honey combed with natural underground caves and cave systems, which would definitely make the job of building underground military bases much easier. So underground bases are not as far fetched as one would believe, especially if they could serve an importance which I believe they possibly could.
by the way, I am still waiting for your sources that state that the richest most powerful nation on earth with the brightest minds, doesnt have the capability to make underground military bunkers/bases of their own especially when much of the US is honey combed with natural caveing systems. Perhaps russia is just doing what the United states has already done?
www.anomalies-unlimited.com...






[edit on 033030p://4304pm by semperfoo]

Originally posted by vK_man

many did not expect USSR ot collapse and gultang was the first one , an with usa asking other nations to fund its debt ...

Its true that some did and some didnt. In the end, the USSR still lost the arms race with the US..

other nations are preapirng to abandon the sinking titanic USA

What your reasoning behind that claim? And its not your current argument..

looking at your public and external debts and deficit ,

Didnt we already discuss this earlier here? Im tired of repeating myself. Go back a few pages....

many economists think USA is waning and spending money uselessly on defence which could be used to save the economy

"Many economist"? How about a verified number of economist who think the US is waning? More cherry picking on your part possibly?

Just wait until the fair tax becomes law in america. You havent seen anything yet. (75 economist our currently endorsing the fair tax which has been researched for over the past decade)
Economists Back 'Fair Tax' Proposal
www.heartland.org...

But keep on hoping and praying...And when your 15 years deadline is up your going to have to push it back to another 15 years. And then.... well, you get the drift Now Ive wasted enough time dismissing your ill informed, grossly biased claims. your beyond my help, and anyone elses for that matter.

Now back to your corner.



[edit on 033030p://4904pm by semperfoo]

[edit on 033030p://5204pm by semperfoo]

IT'S STILL AN OPINION! Arrogant? Stupid? Buddy I'll be the first to tell you I am arrogant. Arrogance breeds confidence, confidence breeds success, success breeds respect an envy. as far as Americans being 'stupid' as you so eloquently put it

and that success leads to megalomania and finally stupidity... clearly remember hitler , he became so successsful that he became arrogant and commited the stupid mistake of attacking stalin's communist russia

and yes even former DIA analyst agrees that america is arrogANT

17 of the worlds top 20 university's disagrees with that assertion.

what ?:?? ???again??? opinion??? history and religon disagree with this assertion

I can see the obvious still eludes you

seems you fail to understand .

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

talk about the empty talk of the kettle

Buddy im not going to lie, what you said was retarded.... It made no sense.

now personal attacks ,

Ok peter pan. so why dont armys use knifes instead of rifles as there main infantry weapon? ...Maybe because knifes have become obsolete and you just dont know any better?...

clearly you are a case of a extremely militarisitc monomaniac with the extreme delusion of imperial aura of US empire
except that you failed to understand on a simple individual basis ...
read some of quote the word deception??? what does deception mean= deciet, creating illusion ???
the person who strikes first wins ??? heard???
in a simple basis :
what does a person do if he knows the other intentions and according uses the knife to strike first.i.e. that is if the other knows that if other person knoows thast he has plan to finish him in sometime after his other objective are accomplished and has a superior weapon , then other by using deception and lowering the other 's guard , by acting as if he is unaware about the other intention , he can strike first , as also a something thing can happen in the case of deciet ... knife can help you, on a complex basis also this is a method used in smaller businesses also to be successful ,
for futrhter understanding of such , i recommend you to read ramayana, you will realise the crux of my quote..

HAH. hey buddy, those were the first ones that popped up. I didnt bother reading into them partly because I didnt care.

first ones ??? grey alien ... what
some more of that conspiracy grey alien nonsense, good lord , and you don't read them , very amusing..

And I lost credibility to you? Whoop-die-#ing-doo... You had no credibility to start with..

lookin at your funny claims that you made against stellar with no backing.. you already have no crediblity..
]

Anyways, I never contested russian underground bases, (even though you still have no solid proof)

except that the proof has backing of reputed , CIA, DIA and russian govt and mr.bush asking about what yamantau is for and your sources on silly grey alien nonsense has no backing of DIA or CIA

Perhaps russia is just doing what the United states has already done?

russia is doing what nazi germany did , but on a far more monstrous scale , even hitler had some small underground bunkers

by the way if underground caves are made of porous rock in nature , they are not useful for bases, there are only two to three small underground bunkers mount weather, cheynne mountains (vulnerable to 25 mt ss-18 satan, that to not of the size of yamantau underground military city(bigger than washington D.C)

In the end, the USSR still lost the arms race with the US..

actually , mr. thomas friedman analyses and says that it lost because of fall of oil prices that deliberate by saudi arabia (possibly with help of Reagan)

What your reasoning behind that claim? And its not your current argument

looking at the advice of the quantum fund manager and former co-partner of billonaire george soros has to say and already the OPEC nations are following his recommendations to invest in other currencies than the dollar

Im tired of repeating myself. Go back a few pages

except that it has no effect on debt ... in june 2005 the external debt of usa was 9 triilion , in june 2006 its 10 trillion
en.wikipedia.org...
1 United States 10,040,0001 30 June 2006

Just wait until the fair tax becomes law in america. You havent seen anything yet. (75 economist our currently endorsing the fair tax which has been researched for over the past decade)

i am waiting to see whether even fairtax becomes a law or not

Now Ive wasted enough time dismissing your ill informed, grossly biased claims. your beyond my help, and anyone elses for that matter.

biased ??? my sources are not biased and ill informed ??? pleassse not soem more of your funny claims that i am biased or ill in formed ... i am tired with this silly rhetoric of yours


[edit on 23-4-2007 by vK_man]

newshub.nus.edu.sg...
www.msnbc.msn.com...
www.washington.edu... [My personal favorite, being a fan of the publication.]

Underground bunkers and bases are used throughout the world, from such countries as the United States and Russian Federation // USSR, to Iraq, Albania, or any of Canada's Diefinbunkers.
Quite a few of these are well-known.. have I missed the argument?
While quantity, and quality are certainly varying between all of the countries which utilize the defense -- the construction of these behemoths shouldn't be indicative of much besides how extreme that country expects to be assaulted, and the efficiency of this choice compared to others. [Russia, for instance, has quite a few areas suitable for superbunkers. France, on the other hand, would require many, many more resources to complete the same project, and most-likely with less inherant protection. (Mountain vs. Flatland)]

Stellar has historically been the odd-dog-out for his rather unorthodox beliefs, and style of Debate. I'll support the reference, though ask we don't bring other individual's credibility and arguments into this discussion without absolute necessity.

The U.S.S.R lost for a great myriad of reasons, not the least among it was an entirely inefficienct industrial structure, the leviathan of secondary-costs for the burgeoning military -- training, repairs, maintenance, etc. -- and its broken social system. I'm unfamiliar with the 'Oil' theory, though 'the military', in its broadest term, is generally accepted as the reason for the country's collapse.

I imagine the next President, regardless of what party, will ride on a platform of killing the debt -- And that point in time coming so quickly should not be ignored. We have the funds, we have the desire, and for now, the influence to affect out economy in the extreme good. It's just a matter of waiting to see how it all plays out. [Working off expectations.]

Just some pandering to both sides.

Originally posted by Iblis
newshub.nus.edu.sg...
www.msnbc.msn.com...
www.washington.edu... [My personal favorite, being a fan of the publication.]

Underground bunkers and bases are used throughout the world, from such countries as the United States and Russian Federation // USSR, to Iraq, Albania, or any of Canada's Diefinbunkers.
Quite a few of these are well-known.. have I missed the argument?
While quantity, and quality are certainly varying between all of the countries which utilize the defense -- the construction of these behemoths shouldn't be indicative of much besides how extreme that country expects to be assaulted, and the efficiency of this choice compared to others. [Russia, for instance, has quite a few areas suitable for superbunkers. France, on the other hand, would require many, many more resources to complete the same project, and most-likely with less inherant protection. (Mountain vs. Flatland)]

Stellar has historically been the odd-dog-out for his rather unorthodox beliefs, and style of Debate. I'll support the reference, though ask we don't bring other individual's credibility and arguments into this discussion without absolute necessity.

The U.S.S.R lost for a great myriad of reasons, not the least among it was an entirely inefficienct industrial structure, the leviathan of secondary-costs for the burgeoning military -- training, repairs, maintenance, etc. -- and its broken social system.

Just some pandering to both sides.

not the least among it was an entirely inefficienct industrial structure

though inefficient paretivcularly in consumer sector , yet in 50's and 60's industrail growth was good and more than that of interms of % in comparuison to USA, US industry producitvity improved hundreds of times thanks to japanese concept of JIT ..

I imagine the next President, regardless of what party, will ride on a platform of killing the debt -- And that point in time coming so quickly should not be ignored. We have the funds, we have the desire, and for now, the influence to affect out economy in the extreme good. It's just a matter of waiting to see how it all plays out. [Working off expectations.]

hope fully , also he/she reduces the inflated defence budget and stops the imperial ventures of USA , and works for helping the world not destroying it
--=---
anyways good to see you back iblis,good that you are not arrogant like that semperfoo, and rahter humble ,

I'm unfamiliar with the 'Oil' theory, though 'the military', in its broadest term, is generally accepted as the reason for the country's collapse.

but many economists and russian historuians disagree , they blame saudi arbia for the collapse read this:

The primary reason anyone in the petroleum industry should be interested in this book is because it outlines how our government intentionally manipulated crude oil prices to win the Cold War by depriving the Soviet Union of much needed capital.
www.kgslibrary.com...

The other policy change ultimately of fundamental import to the
demise of the Soviet economy came out of Riyadh. In the late
summer of 1985, Saudi officials alerted the Reagan administration
that they should expect an increase in Saudi oil production, and as
a consequence a precipitous decline in international oil prices."

"Saudi production in early 1986 was running at almost 10 million
barrels a day. Prices continued their plunge. For the Saudis, the
burst in production more than made up for the drop in price.
Earnings were expected to be up by one third. Even if the price of
oil dropped as low as $8 per barrel, the Saudis would still collect
more than in 1985. And the decline in the U.S. dollar, to which
Fahd had been alerted, was another enormous economic boost.
www.kgslibrary.com...

another quote:

is that major factor in the collapse of the Soviet Union was the drop in oil prices in the mid-1980's. The Soviets were the largest oil producer in the world, and had profited greatly from the oil-price shocks in the 1970's. In 1983 CIA Director William Casey went to Saudi Arabia and made a deal. In return for selling them F-15 fighter jets and AWACS reconnaissance aircraft, the Saudis agreed to vastly increase oil production for the purpose of driving down prices and bankrupting the already weakened Soviet economy. At the time, were you aware of that deal Casey made with the Arabs?
educationforum.ipbhost.com...

from a russian source:

An analysis of the political processes taking place inside of the Soviet system prompted the conclusion that it would remain stable and durable (at least in Gorbachev’s political lifetime), but the economic situation was not quite so clear. In the mid-1980s, there existed two factors which prohibited the Soviet system from being passive or stagnant. First, structural changes had occurred in the Soviet economy as a result of an oil boom of the 1970s. Second, the West had entered the phase of post-industrial growth
eng.globalaffairs.ru...

in 60's russia was 5-10 years behind west, but the oil shock of 1973 , forced western economies to restructure and adopt japanese technique of JIT at a macro economic level thus become more effiecient etc thus it was a quantum leap.. while soviet economy in 70's was comforted by oil prices and made no evolution, and fall of oil prices sent a massive shock wave to soviet economy thus ultimately causing it to collapse

[edit on 23-4-2007 by vK_man]

Originally posted by vK_man
what ?:?? ???again??? opinion??? history and religon disagree with this assertion

ed.sjtu.edu.cn...(1-100).htm
On top of the sources iblis has already posted....

seems you fail to understand .

Whoa.. just time warped back to third grade with that 'comeback'...

talk about the empty talk of the kettle

What? You would have probably been better off by not responding to my initial post...

now personal attacks ,

I guess if you found that as a 'personal attack".. I cant help it that your inferiority complex is rearing its ugly head.

clearly you are a case of a extremely militarisitc monomaniac with the extreme delusion of imperial aura of US empire
except that you failed to understand on a simple individual basis ...
read some of quote the word deception??? what does deception mean= deciet, creating illusion ???
the person who strikes first wins ??? heard???
in a simple basis :
what does a person do if he knows the other intentions and according uses the knife to strike first.i.e. that is if the other knows that if other person knoows thast he has plan to finish him in sometime after his other objective are accomplished and has a superior weapon , then other by using deception and lowering the other 's guard , by acting as if he is unaware about the other intention , he can strike first , as also a something thing can happen in the case of deciet ... knife can help you, on a complex basis also this is a method used in smaller businesses also to be successful ,
for futrhter understanding of such , i recommend you to read ramayana, you will realise the crux of my quote..

......

first ones ??? grey alien ... what
some more of that conspiracy grey alien nonsense, good lord , and you don't read them , very amusing..

Yep, I didnt bother looking up the contents of the sources, had I known better I wouldnt have posted them. I dont know why the hell everyone is so F'ing obsessed with aliens and UFOs. (dammit!) laugh it up while you can.

by the way if underground caves are made of porous rock in nature , they are not useful for bases, there are only two to three small underground bunkers mount weather, cheynne mountains (vulnerable to 25 mt ss-18 satan, that to not of the size of yamantau underground military city(bigger than washington D.C)

Limestone?

except that it has no effect on debt ... in june 2005 the external debt of usa was 9 triilion , in june 2006 its 10 trillion

en.wikipedia.org...
1 United States 10,040,0001 30 June 2006

Yes but, there is a LEGITIMATE point to be made, when one talks about deficits and debt, as a PER CENT of GDP.

anyways good to see you back iblis,good that you are not arrogant like that semperfoo, and rahter humble ,

I take that as a badge of honor from douche bags like you. Now waddle your fat, balding ass over, and ring up my gas and soda, I've gotta get back to work.




[edit on 123030p://1104am by semperfoo]

On top of the sources iblis has already posted

good lord i was not criticizing the universities ,but on arrogance here's what rabbi arthur has to say based on torah (religion):

And arrogance is not only a moral and spiritual malady. It breeds stupidity. For those who are utterly convinced of their own absolute rightness cannot hear the warnings of others, cannot pay attention to the signals from the world around them.
Even when Pharaoh's own advisers shriek at him, "You are destroying Egypt!" he can no longer turn back.

Pharaoh has so addicted himself to his own uncontrollable power that he can no longer make a free choice. Unfortunately, when people who have great power insulate themselves in arrogance, the disasters they create do not wound only themselves. They wound the whole society
www.shalomctr.org...

on history , i already have given an example of hitler's arrogance led to stupidity of attacking USSR ...

I guess if you found that as a 'personal attack".. I cant help it that your inferiority complex is rearing its ugly head.

inferiority ???? again your rhetoric ... starting to get me to laugh..
i can't help it that arrogance is already breeding stupidity

Yes but, there is a LEGITIMATE point to be made, when one talks about deficits and debt, as a PER CENT of GDP.

says the person whose nation is the biggest debtor of the nation
anyways OPEC has followed the soros's former quantum fund manager's advice on leaving dollar

I take that as a badge of honor from douche bags like you

hereby , i present mr .semperfoo with the badge of silly childish and foolish arrogance , as arrogance breeds stupidity

Now waddle your fat, balding ass over, and ring up my gas and soda, I've gotta get back to work.

I've gotta get back to work.

GET YOUR ASS BACK TO WORK , YOUR FUTURE INDIAN BOSS WANTS YOU TO WORK HARDER

Originally posted by vK_man
good lord i was not criticizing the universities

then why all the fuss?

,but on arrogance here's what rabbi arthur has to say based on torah (religion):

You should really learn to think for yourself...

on history , i already have given an example of hitler's arrogance led to stupidity of attacking USSR ...

Hitler was just one crazy ass mo fo. Thats all there is to it..

inferiority ???? again your rhetoric ... starting to get me to laugh..
i can't help it that arrogance is already breeding stupidity

Cause your somethin special... Arnt you?...
Question.. whats your excuse for being stupid then? (Your really good at making excuses!)

says the person whose nation is the biggest debtor of the nation

Again, there is a LEGITIMATE point to be made, when one talks about deficits and debt, as a PER CENT of GDP. I can see the obvious still eludes you..

GET YOUR ASS BACK TO WORK , YOUR FUTURE INDIAN BOSS WANTS YOU TO WORK HARDER

BLASPHEMY!!!


[edit on 013030p://0604am by semperfoo]

Hitler was just one crazy ass mo fo. Thats all there is to it..

actually ,nearly everyone who is arrogant has this problem , stalin's arrogance , led to his stupidity of not being prepared against hitler ,
in egypt the pharaoh's arrogance led to downfall against moses,. in ramayana Ravana's arrogance when he captured and believed ram is not match for him in battle , led to his destruction in the battle against Ram etc..

Originally posted by vK_man

Hitler was just one crazy ass mo fo. Thats all there is to it..

actually ,nearly everyone who is arrogant has this problem , stalin's arrogance , led to his stupidity of not being prepared against hitler ,
in egypt the pharaoh's arrogance led to downfall against moses,. in ramayana Ravana's arrogance when he captured and believed ram is not match for him in battle , led to his destruction in the battle against Ram etc..

Jesus christ man. Im not a leader of a country. you can have your opinion about arrogance, however have you ever met a wealthy, successful business man who didnt come off as being arrogant? Your 4 examples are merely cherry-picked out of 100+ that could be easily listed.

Hitler was just one crazy ass mo fo. Thats all there is to it..

actually ,nearly everyone who is arrogant has this problem , stalin's arrogance , led to his stupidity of not being prepared against hitler ,
in egypt the pharaoh's arrogance led to downfall against moses,. in ramayana Ravana's arrogance when he captured and believed ram is not match for him in battle , led to his destruction in the battle against Ram etc..

Question.. whats your excuse for being stupid then? (Your really good at making excuses!)

stupid??? me??? i am not arrogant ....

Again, there is a LEGITIMATE point to be made, when one talks about deficits and debt, as a PER CENT of GDP. I can see the obvious still eludes you..

the obvious does not elude me, i have known this since the past 2.5 yrs( , as a PER CENT of GDP)..this is particularly done by economists in countries and world bank
but yes, another factor is the quantity too , i.e. the dollar printed by federal reserve to cover for deficit and in long term debt also, which is now a extremely crucial factor , which nations are observing

Originally posted by semperfoo

Originally posted by vK_man

Hitler was just one crazy ass mo fo. Thats all there is to it..

actually ,nearly everyone who is arrogant has this problem , stalin's arrogance , led to his stupidity of not being prepared against hitler ,
in egypt the pharaoh's arrogance led to downfall against moses,. in ramayana Ravana's arrogance when he captured and believed ram is not match for him in battle , led to his destruction in the battle against Ram etc..

Jesus christ man. Im not a leader of a country. you can have your opinion about arrogance, however have you ever met a wealthy, successful business man who didnt come off as being arrogant? Your 4 examples are merely cherry-picked out of 100+ that could be easily listed.

the case is not of mere cherry picking , in many cases stable marriages break down because of one partner's arrogance and unwillingness to not adjust

and yes not all business men are are arrogant , even being humble can make you succesful
example :
1) the late dhirubhai ambani (
2) bill gates , who had a humble beginning
3) mr .goerej
4)the founder of suzlon all have had humble beginnings and trust in god

and yes , my own dad is a wealthy man with property of over 4 million dollars+ and yet not arrogant and had a very humble beginning 20 years ago

, in case of arrogance, i have seen distant relatives in my own family who are arrogant and extremely rich , though in front of their face no one saysanyhting , but behind they are considered spoilt brats and stupid..