Is Secrecy Good or Evil?

Appak, do you think God holds secrets in Spirituality and science? Or does He fulfill a Life with exactly what He meant it for? Is this an "evolutionary process"? If holding "secrets" is "Godlike", who is the most "Godlike" person in the world?

How do you prove that God has hidden secrets from anybody? Based on written language, spoken language, or physical motion?

We are all created EQUAL!!! To doubt this is to doubt God's Infinite Perfection and Infinite Justice.

Originally posted by GreatTech
Appak, do you think God holds secrets in Spirituality and science? Or does He fulfill a Life with exactly what He meant it for? Is this an "evolutionary process"? If holding "secrets" is "Godlike", who is the most "Godlike" person in the world?

Who said holding secrets is Godlike? Do YOU have secrets? If so, what are they? Why do you keep them secret? Hmm??

We are all created EQUAL!!! To doubt this is to doubt God's Infinite Perfection and Infinite Justice.

Who says I doubt that? What does having a secret have to do with anything if nothing is secret from God? Who are YOU to know my secrets? Why do you deserve to know what I hold secret? (and don't give me the created EQUAL scenario either) (See I know where the CAPS key is too)

"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Matthew 6:6

Originally posted by Belinquest
I think you are right, the Pope, the Cardinals should give a proper account of all the secrets hidden in the Vatican.

Upon what compulsion should they?

What if some of those secrets do not have any effect AT ALL on YOU, but might badly harm an innocent person or persons?

Ever think of that or are you just irritated because you aren't privy to some things that aren't necessarily any of your business?

Originally posted by Appak

Originally posted by Belinquest
I think you are right, the Pope, the Cardinals should give a proper account of all the secrets hidden in the Vatican.

Upon what compulsion should they?
What if some of those secrets do not have any effect AT ALL on YOU, but might badly harm an innocent person or persons?
Ever think of that or are you just irritated because you aren't privy to some things that aren't necessarily any of your business?

Hello Appak,
Perhaps you misunderstood or did not read my replies to him in full. I can tell that Greatech is a fervent believer in God and his church. I was pointing out to him in my two posts (maybe I wasn't very clear) that there is a lot of secrecy in the Church itself and perhaps he should direct his criticism of secrecy to his own church first...

This is what I was saying to him:

" I have been to Rome a few times (I live in Europe) and asked the clergyman that was our guide for the day, whether he thought that all the secrecy was bad. He replied that it is not bad in itself, a bit like electricity: you can use it to electricute or illuminate. In any case, he continued, not everybody is ready to know it all; a simple mind or a child's innocence must be protected from the often ughly side of the truth. As long as God knows, why should we tell?"

And also:

" It is odd that you choose to discuss secrecy on a "secret society" forum when there is so much more productive work to be done in the Christian Church.
I really don't understand your "Holier than thou attitude". Let the one with no sins cast the first stone?"

Originally posted by Belinquest
I really don't understand your "Holier than thou attitude". Let the one with no sins cast the first stone?"

No stone has been cast. I simply contend that some secrets SHOULD exist. Many people are curious to know secrets that have nothing to do with them. In fact many think that they have a RIGHT to know secrets and quite simply, they do NOT.

Originally posted by Appak

Originally posted by Belinquest
I really don't understand your "Holier than thou attitude". Let the one with no sins cast the first stone?"

No stone has been cast. I simply contend that some secrets SHOULD exist. Many people are curious to know secrets that have nothing to do with them. In fact many think that they have a RIGHT to know secrets and quite simply, they do NOT.

Appak, please, read my post: I was addressing those remarks to Great Tech.

I do agree with you that secrets are necessary and inevitable.

Sorry 'bout that!
I saw the first part directed to me and the last portion seemed to be. (Maybe it was a guilty conscience on my part.)

Originally posted by Appak
Sorry 'bout that!
I saw the first part directed to me and the last portion seemed to be. (Maybe it was a guilty conscience on my part.)

Serves you right for being so guilty!

I am not so good at posting, so it might have been confusing. ( I am new to this....)

Its like this...what is good and evil? Its all perception.
Good is what benefits a common group...thats it.

Thats why we have wars, everyone is fighting for their own good.

Those that rule the world understand the concept above that of an ethics thing...
Look at nature. Water monitors eat their kids (definitley not recommeding this ),
Praying Mantis eat their mating partner.

These words are pointers...examples beyond what is being said.
The point is people look at things black and white, and forget that black thinks they are white in their standard, and vice-versa.

Observe nature and even human nature...understand this, and then realize how horrible things happen to good people.
Those higher up are doing what is good for their good, despite what is bad for us.

Now it can be argued that this indeed is bad...when one ignores the common good of the other.
But it seems this takes a level of spiritual maturity beyond what most people exhibit...such as acceptance. Because right when you accept, fear comes in, and the whole mess is stirred up again.

Clear as mud...perhaps, but the answer does come to those who search.

Peace

Dalen

Originally posted by umwolves123

Originally posted by 7Ayreon
Secrecy is pointless, wth are we to hide?! We're a small world afterall!!

Alright then as was said before, what's your full name, social security number, and address. if secrecy is so pointless then why not just offer that info up? See you just saw the title and threw in a post for extra points. you didnt actually read it to offer up an educated response did you? Didnt think so.

----8

Is secrecy created for the Greater Good of a few? Yes. Or is it created for the Greater Good of all? No.

God created us equal and to love all equally.

Hi Akareyon

Originally posted by Akareyon
umwolves123, Skibum, dear Masons, I gave you the start of the ending of secrecy. Now give me knowledge: have you any good, sound reason for secrecy?

Which part of freemasonry do you regard as secret?

Originally posted by Trinityman
Hi Akareyon
Which part of freemasonry do you regard as secret?

Why do you, Trinityman, counter my question with a question?

I have given what I have been asked for. Now it's umvolve's and Skibums turn to give, not for you to come and ask me for more; especially when it's quite obvious what I mean from all the examples already given.

Come on, we're into the second page of a thread which has "secrecy" in its topic and you're asking me what I regard as secret?

Originally posted by Akareyon

Originally posted by Trinityman
Hi Akareyon
Which part of freemasonry do you regard as secret?

Why do you, Trinityman, counter my question with a question?

Because it requires clarity. You should have seen by now that this forum is awash with miscommunication. Ask a straight question and you'll get a straight answer.

I have given what I have been asked for. Now it's umvolve's and Skibums turn to give, not for you to come and ask me for more; especially when it's quite obvious what I mean from all the examples already given.

Obvious to you, maybe.

Come on, we're into the second page of a thread which has "secrecy" in its topic and you're asking me what I regard as secret?

Exactly.

Originally posted by Akareyon
Why do you, Trinityman, counter my question with a question?
I have given what I have been asked for. Now it's umvolve's and Skibums turn to give, not for you to come and ask me for more; especially when it's quite obvious what I mean from all the examples already given.
Come on, we're into the second page of a thread which has "secrecy" in its topic and you're asking me what I regard as secret?

From the earliest of times the mysteries were held in great esteem:

-Happy is he among men upon earth who has seen these mysteries; but he who is uninitiate and who has no part in them, never has lot of like good things once he is dead, down in the darkness and gloom.
Homeric Hymns, 2.480

-When you come upon a burning sacrifice, do not make a mock of mysteries, for Heaven is angry at this also.
Hesiod, Works and Days, 755

The great Plato, himself an initiate, has this to say:

-And I fancy that those men who established the mysteries were not unenlightened, but in reality had a hidden meaning when they said long ago that whoever goes uninitiated and unsanctified to the other world will lie in the mire, but he who arrives there initiated and purified will dwell with the gods. For as they say in the mysteries, 'the thyrsus-bearers are many, but the mystics few'.
Plato, Phaedo, 69c

This veneration for the mysteries lasted even to later centuries in Rome:

-For it appears to me that among the many exceptional and divine things your Athens has produced and contributed to human life, nothing is better than those mysteries. For by means of them we…have been civilized. The basis not only for living with joy but also for dying with a better hope.
Cicero, On the Laws, 2.14.36

Mysteries and so called secrets do not belong to individuals in the sense that they can be given away, they belong to the Tradition.

The unfolding of a mystery is a necessary part of initiation. " Some things cannot be taught, they must be learned"

Originally posted by Trinityman
Because it requires clarity. You should have seen by now that this forum is awash with miscommunication. Ask a straight question and you'll get a straight answer.

I apologize if my first reply sounded rude.

I cannot give you that clarity. I don't know much about masons. From what I have read, it is a fraternal circle, a brotherhood of men with the goal to achieve personal greatness. In other words, it's more a kind of evening club where you meet and talk about your goals and how you can achieve them better with the help of your friends. This involves a lot of oaths and vows. From time to time, you're initiated to a higher level, where there are fewer men which share more wisdom or power or might, and more secrecy. My guesswork is that this is what the "pyramid" symbol is all about: the higher you step, the better is your view over the desert of life, the higher your understanding of existance. At the top of the pyramid, the capstone of the hierarchy, you meet the "all-seeing eye", a kind of enlighenment status. I imagine somebody will walk up to you and tell you the ultimate secret: that the pyramid symbolizes the male principle (in all ancient magic) and that all of humanity is like sperms on the race for the ovolum, just on a greater scale. But only one spermium can impregnate that egg. Congratulations! You are the winner, you have been the strongest and fastest, all the others loose, but they have the honour of having helped you.

So far, so good. I don't know what comes next and honestly I don't care (maybe it has to do with a giant golden apple?).

But I strongly believe that every kind of hierarchal organization, however good and benevolent its ideals might be or might have been upon foundation a long time ago, tends to corrupt eventually. Because without the willpower to get to the top, you won't get there (and nobody's gonna invite you there either). So the criteria to achieve "power" and enlightenment are not love, benevolence, respect and responsibility for all aspects of life, but ruthlessness, corruption, greed, lust for power and a certain skill fooling those around you.

That doesn't mean that those at the top of the hierarchy are "bad" or "evil". They are still humans and share human feelings like love and compassion, but only for those that serve them and show obedience.

In a way, this is how nature works: Darwin called it the "survival of the fittest". Any organism/system must profit from each of its genes/program routines. If not, it will be rejected in the next cycle.

So, here's my question for those who love secrets: what is the secret of the system, the machine, the matrix? What is the underlying principle of life on earth (or even of life in the universe)? Why is the lust for power a criterium by which an entity is granted to take one step up on the pyramid? And why does it cause so much suffering for those that don't seem "fit" to ascend? Is there really no way to end the destruction (war, hunger, polluted water, diseases, environmental pollution) that we witness every day? Is it really just an unwanted and regrettable byproduct of an eventual human/terrestial ascension to the top of the universal evolution pyramid, to the upper end of the food chain in the race of our genes and memes for superiority? Or will we remember the very core of our existance - love - and begin to care whether our organism as a whole is intact or not?

In short: what are you afraid of?

I'd really like to know. So, dear masons and secret society members, if you could share this secret with me and our fellow members on ATS and the rest of humanity, and not wait until you can produce it later like some kind of "christmas surprise" (="good secret" sort of thing), I will gladly have shared my personal data, adress, birth date and bank numbers with you.

Hi again Akareyon

Thats much clearer thanks.

Freemasonry is much more straightforward than you appear to think it is. There are three levels which can be attained reasonably quickly, thus putting the majority of freemasons at the 'highest' level. Thus we are all equal and all brothers.

Freemasonry teaches great truths, all of which can be found openly available in the Bible and other great spiritual works. These are crystallized around Brotherly Love, Relief (charity) and Truth. The 'hidden mysteries of nature and science' are hidden in plain view, it just takes a slight change of perspective to see clearly.

Freemasons undertake a journey of self-understanding. The mechanisms and alternatives are many, but there is no formal route. Each takes his own path, is his own judge and sets his own criteria for success.

There is no coersion in freemasonry. No door is locked to the inquisitive, and no information is withheld from those who wish it. There are many masonic degrees and side orders, each with their own lessons, each consistent with the Craft. Deeper rather than higher.

It is important for you to understand that the candidate self-selects himself for progression - not chosen by a shadowy elite. There is no shadowy-elite in freemasonry, no hidden secret revealed to the very few.

For freemasons, the work is Internal, not External. Any building I do will be within myself, as I attempt to raise a superstructure perfect in its parts, and honorable to the builder. So you were nearly correct right at the beginning, and if I may paraphrase you...

From what I have read, it is a fraternal circle, a brotherhood of men with the goal to achieve personal growth.

Many of your points, and to be fair you are not alone, focus on freemasonry's interaction with the outer world (negatively I might add) whereas this is a myth. Freemasonry doesn't focus on the outer world at all, but on the inner person. That person may very well then influence the outer world, and freemasonry may have played a part in his influence. But as all the lessons within freemasonry are positive then that indirect influence can only be positive itself. Of course some seed is scattered on stony ground, but that is another matter.

Freemasonry, through Grand Lodges, is bound by its "constitution" not to interfere in non-masonic matters. And no regular Grand Lodge does. Ever.

I hope this helps, and I hope this doesn't satisfy your curiosity.

There are two types of worlds:

1) An Ideal World, where everybody loves everybody else to the highest possible degree and no hatred, fear, or distrust exist among any people. The concept of secrecy is not even thought of as love is spread through everbody, everyplace, and everything. Secrecy is not needed.

2) A Non-Ideal World, where hatred, fear, and distrust exist among people. For self-survival, and the survival of all, groups begin forming secrets. Secrecy is needed.

We must break down the barriers of hatred, fear, and distrust that exist between individuals, groups, and countries and move towards the Ideal World where only Love exists.

I believe secrecy is a response to hatred more than being hatred in itself. Target the hatred, fear, and distrust, and, therefore, eventually eliminate secrecy and we will live in a Great and Glorious World!!!

Thank you Trinityman for your clarification.

And of course your answer has not satisfied my thirst for knowledge :-)

Although I understand that freemasonry is about heightening my self (myself, my ego) rather than lowering my neighbour, I wonder if there are insights to the very nature of - well, nature itself. See, it's not like I'm Harry Potter entering Hogwarts to question Professor Dumbledore why witches and warlocks don't go out and save the planet with magic. But I have figured out this much (and I'd like to know if any secret knowledge can give me a logical explanation for this phenomenon): individuals gather to form collectives, cultures, organizations, organisms (brotherhoods, clubs, nations, civilizations, towns, villages, subcultures). Secrets and rituals, traditions and history, taste and like-mindedness in general are established to help the individual indentify himself with the collective. So what I see is a permanent state of struggle between organisms and super-organisms and super-super-organisms, some of which have evolved to "greatness" and others haven't; some by themselves and some through force. Some split up, some merge. I wouldn't care if it was a fair game, but people are suffering from this. I mean, really badly. I know I'm not the only one who sees that. There are people out there who are way smarter and much more powerful than I am and - what do they do? They're shipping weapons to third world countries so they can kill each other. They're sending "first aid" food and clothes, crippling local economies. They're sending money - to corrupt regimes. They endorse pollution of our environment and destroy humanities life substance: the rain forests, the oceans... That's the large scale. On a smaller scale, political parties and their figureheads betray their voters, and on the smallest scale, the husband cheats on his wife.

What is the secret behind this? Who planted that fear in all of us that taught us to keep secrets, individually and collectively? Is it really THAT hard to collaboratively establish the Ideal World GreatTech suggests? What's freemasonrys take on the highest of all commandments (according to Jesus) - to love our neighbours like our selves? Of course this law implies that I have to love myself. If I do, I'll strengthen my self - but also that of my neighbour. I will not withhold knowledge how to produce medicine, how to avoid diseases, how to grow food, I will not keep patents secret and hidden and locked away, I will not gather intelligence about him. Compare James 2,15&16: "If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?"

How can I achieve personal greatness, yet bear in mind that others will never be given the chance to (before being killed by a bullet that my taxes helped paying - or by lack of food caused by my collective's embargo policy)?

Originally posted by Akareyon
What's freemasonrys take on the highest of all commandments (according to Jesus) - to love our neighbours like our selves?

The following is taken from an advanced Masonic textbook called "Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike, 33°, from pages 17 - 18:

Masonry has its decalogue, which is a law to its Initiates. These are its Ten Commandments:

I. God is the Eternal, Omnipotent, Immutable WISDOM and Supreme INTELLIGENCE and Exhaustless LOVE.
Thou shalt adore, revere, and love Him!
Thou shalt honor Him by practising the virtues!

II. Thy religion shall be, to do good because it is a pleasure to thee, and not merely because it is a duty.
That thou mayest become the friend of the wise man, thou shalt obey his precepts!
Thy soul is immortal! Thou shalt do nothing to degrade it!

III. Thou shalt unceasingly war against vice!
Thou shalt not do unto others that which thou wouldst not wish them to do unto thee!
Thou shalt be submissive to thy fortunes, and keep burning the light of wisdom!

IV. Thou shalt honor thy parents!
Thou shalt pay respect and homage to the aged!
Thou shalt instruct the young!
Thou shalt protect and defend infancy and innocence!

V. Thou shalt cherish thy wife and thy children!
Thou shalt love thy country, and obey its laws! p. 18

VI. Thy friend shall be to thee a second self!
Misfortune shall not estrange thee from him!
Thou shalt do for his memory whatever thou wouldst do for him, if he were living!

VII. Thou shalt avoid and flee from insincere friendships!
Thou shalt in everything refrain from excess.
Thou shalt fear to be the cause of a stain on thy memory!

VIII. Thou shalt allow no passions to become thy master!
Thou shalt make the passions of others profitable lessons to thyself!
Thou shalt be indulgent to error!

IX. Thou shalt hear much: Thou shalt speak little: Thou shalt act well!
Thou shalt forget injuries!
Thou shalt render good for evil!
Thou shalt not misuse either thy strength or thy superiority!

X. Thou shalt study to know men; that thereby thou mayest learn to know thyself!
Thou shalt ever seek after virtue!
Thou shalt be just!
Thou shalt avoid idleness!


But the great commandment of Masonry is this: "A new commandment give I unto you: that ye love one another! He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, remaineth still in the darkness."

How can I achieve personal greatness, yet bear in mind that others will never be given the chance to (before being killed by a bullet that my taxes helped paying - or by lack of food caused by my collective's embargo policy)?

Most of do not have the power to change the world. However, we do have the power to offer a kind word, extend the hand of friendship to a fellow human being, etc. These too have eternal repercussions.