Can A Christian Serve Both Caesar And God?

Getting back to the main subject, that part of the Bible was definitely meant to show some type of trick against Jesus trying to pin him down as anti-government or anti-God.

His answer was the perfect one.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
The Old Testament of the Bible is replete with examples of God changing his mind for various reasons, either just a reevaluation of the situation or debate with a human.

[edit on 10/19/2006 by djohnsto77]

Hi, Dj

Well-- let me put it this way. (You have to go back to Sumarian and Old Hebrew texts to read or see this.) To be very brief, as was Moses in the first sentence in Genesis--" In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth." --a condensation to one sentence of 5 entire volumns of Sumarian text that explain not only that God did it, but HOW he did it. To be brief, "God made with the Seven Tribes of Man that He created, 7 Covenants----."

Now, a "Covenant" is a contractural agreement between God and Mankind. Each Covenant contains a Sign of the Covenant; (in the case of the Judeo-Christian Faiths-- the Arc of the Covenant); and a set of Moral Rules and Ceremonies of that Covenant mutually agreed to by God and Men, and to which both Seal. (Hence the Seven Seals and Seven Books of Daniel and the Revelation of John).

Now, lets look at the word "Holy". Holiness is a State of Being, or a "Stance of Seal", regards a Covenant. Those who keep the Letter and Spirit of a Covenant are Holy--as they keep their end of an agreement. God, my friends, is as good as His Word--He is Holy. When it comes to the breaking of a Covenant--God will NOT break a Covenant--for, in doing so, He looses Holiness and the Trust of Men, who will cease to Believe Him, and His work will be nulled. As with a Secular Contract (Covenent), there are retributions for violation of the Terms and Conditions. God's Covenants are the same. So, to say that "God changed His mind" is to be in error as God may very well be issuing Judgement on a Breach of Contract--with the appropriateness written into the Covenant originally. Understand that the Seals broken in Daniel and Revelation are the Seals of The Seven Covenants God has with Mankind--and there should be 2 Seals on each Book--ours and His. Where is ours?

What I refer to, here, is excerpts of Ecclesastical Law and Levitical Law--the very same that founded our own Secular Civil and Crminal Law that we live by today. Please do not confuse these two with Cannonical Law which is that of the Pope. The later is Roman Law and almost a direct transcript of it, down to the Council of Cardinals (Roman Senate) and the Triumvirate of the Cannonical Court.

So, rather than saying God changes His mind, and is therefore, untrustworthy and unholy, try saying that certain of the original Seven Tribes of Man in the Beginning, have broken their end of the Covenent, and are experiencing the punitive reprocussions of doing so.

I'll add this to help clarify the post. The Bible is no longer the primary source of information about God. Basically, it covers only 2 of the Seven Covenants (Abrahim and Moses' People)--the later 5 not mentioned but twice, and both times in the New Testiment-once by Jesus, and the second by John the Revelator. In the instance of Jesus the other 6 (at that time) groups were summed together simply in the phrase "I have other Sheep." The reference by John was, of course, the Seven Seals. The Bible itself has undergone so many revisions, one of the last being the Puritan Reform in which over 72 entire books were removed, such that references given in most of the remaining books no longer have redundancy. You have to find these in the old scrolls and transcripts which still exist. Notible among mission books are the Books of Enoch (1 and 2), the Book of Jasher, known as the Rightious Record, and 4 Gospels of the New Testiment written by Women--Ruth, Mary the Mother of Christ, Mary Magdaline, and The Book of Sarah.

Lest we shake strong Faith is God that keeps His word, let's clarify what we mean when we say "He changed His mind", with the understanding that the reason is that some of us failed tokeep our end of the Covenants.

[edit on 19-10-2006 by Ed Littlefox]

Originally posted by Mimbster

Originally posted by Nygdan
Of course god can contradict himself, he's not bound by anything logic familiar to man. God demanded that the hebrews not kill, then ordered them to kill entire tribes. The bible says moses lead the hebrews from slavery in egypt, but that ended in what, babylonian captivity. And the bible also says that Paul told a runaway slave who was a christian to return to his master. They didn't want to upset the foundations of roman society, because roman society was temporal and meaningless, only the spiritual 'world' was important to them. Of course jesus didn't come to overthrow the 'evil' roman empire, he let himself be tortured and executed by it. His passion and miracle were not a militant revolution overthrowing a despot.

I think there is a difference between murder and killing in wars. The commandment says that you shall not murder, and killing in self-defense is certainly not murder. The God of the Bible is a just God, he punished people in the OT because they deserved it, like Sodom and Gomorrah for example, those cities were sinful and wicked in God's eyes. The Israelites are God's chosen people, God blessed them when they were in his favor (not worshipping other gods) and punished them when they weren't in his favor. Jesus, on the other hand, died for the sins of the world, so that we wouldn't be executed for fornicating, or for adultery, like in the OT. However, the Bible says that we must place our faith in Jesus, or risk eternal Hellfire.

I would disagree.... the OT was a Jewish god.. he there fore acted as a Jew would expect his god to act.. to smite the ones who dispehave.. to come down and claim support for a single nation and lead them into the uncertain odds into meleviolent wars... that is a God which comes from the Middle East.. at the dawn of civilization while taking with them the stories they picked up from various other religions..

In the NT you can obviously see that this God... who is supposed to be the same god underwent some kind of personality change, he became European. All the traits in the NT are different from the OT because they represents different cultures. Jews don't agree with the bible.. yet Christians read the Torah and don't agree with the Koran.. which the Muslims read the Torah, the Bible and the Koran.. because each religion when adopted by a different culture instead of adopting the religion, the religion adopted the culture.

Why no more god.. why no more miracles, no more gods voice booming from heaven through a flaming bush.. why no more chosen men to speak to mortals the way of the lord.. In the age of information one can see anyone who spreads such a message is a hoax, a lie.. back then it could be spread amongst the ignorant and under educated.. it was like I posted above adopted by the Roman court to become a power base... just like our dear Bush claims to be a born again.

Please review my discussion on what I think religion really is.. and where it comes from and why.

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

Originaly posted by Rockpuck

Why no more god.. why no more miracles, no more gods voice booming from heaven through a flaming bush.. why no more chosen men to speak to mortals the way of the lord.. In the age of information one can see anyone who spreads such a message is a hoax, a lie.. back then it could be spread amongst the ignorant and under educated.. it was like I posted above adopted by the Roman court to become a power base... just like our dear Bush claims to be a born again.

Rockpuck,

I am very familier with your views on Religion. You have a right to your opinion as well as your Beliefs, or lack thereof. I just truly wish, tho, that we could meet, and I could show you where God may be found. There was a time in my Life when I was about a skeptical regards Religion as you are. I still am skeptical about Religion, as there is a massive difference between Religion and the Spiritual Beliefs I hold and talk about. That is the reason and the drive that launched an as yet unfinished personal study of World Religion, Comparative Religion, Spirituality, and Belief Systems which has spanned 45 years of my life.

Skepticism is a good thing, so long as it drives you to study something. In and of itself, Skepticism for it's own sake leads only to dead ends and walking in increasingly smaller circles.

The Miracles and Visions you speak of above still exist, Rock. You just have to be able and willing to walk out of your box, or look over the walls, to see them.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Jesus demanded that we not struggle against evil, that we cooperate with the government, and that we give in to the world-system we live in.

Jesus taught by example and it seems pretty clear that Jesus struggled against evil, so it is only logical that Jesus intended for his followers to struggle against that same evil. The only people that would desire folks to believe otherwise are those with a vested interested in the maintaining the status quo.

Matthew 4
1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil...

Originally posted by Nygdan
Of course god can contradict himself, he's not bound by anything logic familiar to man.

In one breath you emphatically explain God's intentions to us and in the next breath you say that God's intentions can not be comprehended by man. Are you recanting your first post or did you intend to prove your second post with the first?

@Ed Littlefox:

As far as God changing his mind, I think it's always been in the favor of humans and forgiveness, I should have said that in the original post.

Originally posted by df1
Jesus taught by example

When?

and it seems pretty clear that Jesus struggled against evil,

BUt he's god, its a different situation.

so it is only logical that Jesus intended for his followers to struggle against that same evil.

Then why tell them to turn the other cheek and love their enemies? Normally people kill their enemies. The message seems to be a pacifistic one.

The only people that would desire folks to believe otherwise are those with a vested interested in the maintaining the status quo[..]Matthew 4:1

Are you actually saying that I must be deluded by the devil himself to think that jesus was a pacifist?

In one breath you emphatically explain God's intentions to us and in the next breath you say that God's intentions can not be comprehended by man.

I said that he's not bound by things that bind men. Man is a logical animal in a material universe that operates according to principles that can be rationally understood.
That doesn't mean, for example, that god must be a pacifist himself in order to demand that his acolytes be pacifists.

Can a Christian serve both God and Caesar, and should a Christian serve both God and Caesar? The Apostle Paul touched on obedience when writing to the Colossians.

Colossians 3: 17-23 King James Version

17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
18Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
19Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
20Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
21Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
22Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God;
23And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
Source

I feel that Paul is saying obedience to laws is a good thing as long as it does not contradict God’s laws. Even Jesus paid taxes.

Matthew 17: 24-27

24And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
25He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
26Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
27Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
Source

How then do Christians serve both God and Caesar? Or as someone else posted: What would Jesus do?

Matthew 22: 34-40
34But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Source

This then, is where so many Christians fail. How many so-called Christians act in their own interest while invoking the name of Jesus? The Bible says that “Ye shall know them by their fruit.” I would never go to an apple tree expecting to pick cherries. Or to put it in today’s vernacular, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. . .

Our current government leaders, who claim to be Christians, would have us believe that we are killing people to make them free. America used to embody the highest moral standards as a nation. IMHO, I see us quickly embracing tactics that we once disdained. How can a leader call himself a Christian and act in so opposite a way of the teachings of the One he claims to be a follower? How can Christians support him?

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Getting back to the main subject, that part of the Bible was definitely meant to show some type of trick against Jesus trying to pin him down as anti-government or anti-God.

His answer was the perfect one.

I agree. The Pharisees and Scribes of the time always tried to put Jesus in difficult and awkward situations by asking him difficult questions to get "right". Jesus was always right and never gave the Pharisees the answers they wanted to hear.

[edit on 19-10-2006 by Mimbster]

Originally posted by Nygdan
BUt he's god, its a different situation.

Isn't a christian suppose to attempt to live his/her life in the manner as close to Jesus as possible while knowing that they will fail? If Jesus is not an example to live by then the christian religion is completely pointless.

Are you actually saying that I must be deluded by the devil himself to think that jesus was a pacifist?

I'm not a christian, so I'd never say that. Any devil you are deluded by is of your own creation.
Imho you misunderstand pacifism. It does not mean cooperating and supporting any government. As a pacifist Jesus allowed himself to be abused without any attempt at retaliation, but he never cooperated with or supported the pharisees, pilate or herod. Jesus remained true to himself and was defiant throughout his entire ordeal.

@ DarkElf --

Very well said, my Friend, and very well backed up!

@ Dj

Yes, I knew what you were trying to say, Dj, but it did give me the opportunity to say a bit more regards the breaking of Covenants by men. I really wasn't jumping your case. If I somehow offended you, then you have my apologies.
______________________

I think that the crux of this thread, "Can a Christian serve both Caeser and God?" speaks to much deeper issues; that of the seperation of Church and State, and what has happened to the Church over the last 60 years that has caused it's very Soul to leave the Body. FWIW-- my Ministry is, and has always been, about Truth. That automatically puts me in the position of Debunking False Prophesy--hence my "business" of being up here on ATS in the first place. I have come to see False Prophesy as the responsible factor in most of the problems the World faces today.
There are very basics to Belief that have somehow vanished from the Teachings, not only of the Christian Church, but Islam, Judaeism, and Monotheism in general. It IS that the Beginning of the Understanding of the Truth is the formation of a Personal Relationship with God. It is NOT a "group trip", Folks, and it never has been. Group Religion leads to manipulation through False Teaching, and the proof of that is that it has. Ergo-- The Fruits, so far, are pure Chaos and non Order. God is an Ordered Being, so how can God be disorder? I could go on and on with this, example upon example, both negative and positive. Again, FWIW, I intend a Blog up here on this very subject matter.

Just one more thing before I close this one. You will never catch me pounding a pulpit here, or anywhere else, or slapping you with a Bible Tract. Rather, you will catch me more likely telling the Truth in the clearest and most concise way I can. I am a simple Man with a simple Faith based in the a Personal Relationship with the Master of Life. I just display the Truth hoping your curiosity will be whetted enough for you to do some further exploration--that is the Hope--and find what I have found to be True. It's about Denying Spiritual Ignorance--and that is about Denying Ignorance, period.
Here is a nugget. Life is all about Relationship, both with God, and with All-things.

'Nuff

[edit on 20-10-2006 by Ed Littlefox]

[edit on 20-10-2006 by Ed Littlefox]

I think one can. As long as he does his duty here on earth using his religion as a guide to do so ethically and morally. Theres a difference between working for a government or political figure, and worshiping them.