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Can A Christian Serve Both Caesar And God?

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df1

posted on Sep, 28 2006 @ 12:24 AM
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From time to time Ive applied the "What would Jesus Do?" question to political positions taken by some christians. Most of time the christian will do the opposite of what I would expect Jesus to do in a similar situation. Jesus was extremely anti-establishment, however many modern day christians support the secular establishment much like the pharisees which were the antithesis of Jesus.

Michael S. Rozeff discusses why a christian supporting the government is contrary to the precepts of christianity. He makes a strong case that it would be more consistent for christians to take a more liberatarian position.


Libertarians are anti-state. To be faithful to their creed, Christians should be anti-state once they penetrate the veil of the state and understand that its means are inherently violent. This is not hard to see. Every act of the state takes from some their property and livelihoods while others are made to gain. These takings are thefts whether ordered by a king, a dictator, a Politburo, a Congress, or a majority. In all instances, some people are involuntarily disadvantaged and others are advantaged. States pervert the Golden Rule and the commandments. Their crimes deny God and make man the sovereign. No Christian can in good conscience voluntarily support a Cæsar – the state – whose violence goes against God.
www.lewrockwell.com


Rozeff's observations are logically sound Imho. Opposing thoughts are particularly welcome.

[edit on 28-9-2006 by df1]




posted on Sep, 28 2006 @ 12:42 AM
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Damned...I had a great response with all the quote and ex stuff in to make it pretty and my browser crashed right before I could submit it! :bnghd:

Anyway, to make a long story short, we live in a different world today and Jesus was mainly against the Church using its influence to raise money and sell things to pilgrims (something the Catholics seem to still do), not just anti-estabilishment (anti-establishment at that time, not ours).

And also remember Jesus said "render onto caesar what is caesar's and render unto God what is God's," not "overthrow your government!!!!"


df1

posted on Sep, 28 2006 @ 09:46 AM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
And also remember Jesus said "render onto caesar what is caesar's and render unto God what is God's," not "overthrow your government!!!!"

Libertarians support limiting the power of government via the political process and they oppose violence. This approach to politics is consistent with the teachings of Jesus and it is consistent with the US constitution. Where did you get the idea that adhering to libertarian principles means supporting the overthrow the US government?


The non-aggression principle (also called the non-aggression axiom, anticoercion principle, or zero aggression principle) is a deontological ethical stance associated with the libertarian movement. It holds that "aggression" — which is defined as the initiation of physical force or the threat of such upon persons or their property — is inherently illegitimate. The principle does not preclude retaliation against aggression.

The non-aggression principle typically includes property as a part of the owner; to aggress against someone's property is to aggress against the individual. Thus, the principle leads to the rejection of theft, murder and fraud. When applied to governments, it has been taken to prohibit many policies including taxation and the military draft.
wikipedia


Conservative republicans would generally agree with libertarians on taxation, but most would likely disagree with libertarians on opposing a military draft for example. Imho this is inconsistent with conservative principles and it is inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus.

"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's... (Mathew 22:21)," does not mean that christians are to offer themselves and their children to caesar, but none the less that is exactly what many conservative christians support. It seems to me that have become so seduced by the things of the world that they have forgotten to render "...unto God the things that are God's. (Mathew 22:21)".

Often folks have the perception that I personally oppose the teachings of Jesus, but nothing could be further from the truth. My opposition is to those christians that mold the teachings of Jesus to justify the actions of caesar.
.

[edit on 28-9-2006 by df1]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 12:29 AM
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Well at heart I'm really a libertarian, I think government should stay out of our lives as much as possible. I support the legalization of all drugs, prostitution, gambling, and other such vices everywhere, whether or not I agree with them or would partake in them.

But don't be confused into thinking true liberals would want this -- true left-wingers want to control every aspect of your life from cradle to grave through their various social initiatives.


df1

posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 02:03 AM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
I support the legalization of all drugs, prostitution, gambling, and other such vices everywhere...

Sounds great. If you are on the ballot in Ohio, you've got my vote. Policing morality is not a legitimate function of government.



But don't be confused into thinking true liberals would want this -- true left-wingers want to control every aspect of your life from cradle to grave through their various social initiatives.

I see no true believers of any ideology, save libertarians. Its just a game over power & money.and the american people are pawns stuck in the middle with the demopublicans lording over us. Im a lowercase libertarian, but Ive voted exclusively LP in every election since 1976 simply because I refuse to choose the lesser of 2 evils.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 02:59 PM
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Can A Christian Serve Both Caesar And God?



In short--NO!.

"Thou canst not have God and Mammon (material). A Man cannot serve 2 masters, for he shall love the one and hate the other----."

Further, the results of the Christian World trying to do just that are apparant just about anywhere you look. "What would Jesus do?" ---likely turn over in His grave--if he had one----



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 01:44 PM
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According to the Bible, Jesus once said to give unto Caesar what is his and to God what is God's. Christians are actually ordered to obey the Government because God put them into a position of leadership and the Bible says that you should disobey the Govt. only if it requires you to sin.


df1

posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by Mimbster
According to the Bible, Jesus once said to give unto Caesar what is his and to God what is God's. Christians are actually ordered to obey the Government because God put them into a position of leadership and the Bible says that you should disobey the Govt. only if it requires you to sin.

According to what bible?

Matthew 22:21 (King James Version)
21They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

The above means that since caesar (the government) created the money that it is appropriate to return the money back to its creator. It does not say anything about God granting anyone leadership authority which everyone is required to obey.
.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 04:25 PM
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I think you could interpret it both ways...that's the problem with most religious writings, they're not that clear.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by Mimbster
According to the Bible, Jesus once said to give unto Caesar what is his and to God what is God's. Christians are actually ordered to obey the Government because God put them into a position of leadership and the Bible says that you should disobey the Govt. only if it requires you to sin.

According to what bible?

Matthew 22:21 (King James Version)
21They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

The above means that since caesar (the government) created the money that it is appropriate to return the money back to its creator. It does not say anything about God granting anyone leadership authority which everyone is required to obey.
.


Well, definitely according to the Bible, God is omniscient and knows everything before it happens. God allowed Hitler to murder millions of God's people (Jews), just like he allowed Bush to become president. Every Govt. is appointed by God for whatever reason, and you know what the Christians say, God works in mysterious ways.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 05:52 PM
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I'm glad you people think that, Mimbster--it's just another example of how much spiritual misteaching there has been in the Christian Church. You all seem to want to lay everything that happens on God, when God gave YOU the tools to prevent every bit of it. Everybody Prays for God to drop down out of Heaven and solve the problems Mankind has created for himself through the misuse of his Gift of Free Will.

My advice to the Christian World is, the next time you Pray for the Hands of God to move, then spend a little time LOOKING AT YOUR OWN HANDS and asking yourself why things are the way they are. What goes down on this Planet is what you cause, and you can do it with or without God. The Truth is black and white--there is NO "grey area". God is NOT and evil Being. God is Love, not Fear. Remember, because Adam chose to eat of the Tree of Life, the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil--he imbued all of his offspring with the ability to Choose. That is why we fell from Grace in the beginning, because we chose to Choose--have a Will. It is the crux Teaching of Jesus Christ to Temper Choice--to instill the Spiritual Descipline in Man to Govern his Choices; Clairifying the Law in such way as to denote the difference between Choice with God-- Rightiousness--or without God, Self-Rightiousness.

Please, don't be blaming God for Man's problems--we caused those--He definately did NOT. Will He solve them--NOPE-- that is our task. Did God install the current Governments and Administrations in the World? Nope--we did. Don't saddle Him, or Jesus with that, it is the worst form of Blasphemy to do so.

JM educated O. Read the Books, they weren't written by Fox News.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 06:02 PM
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I understand what you are saying. Everything bad that happens in the world is a result of the "fall", or our sin. The world was perfect before sin entered in. There was no death, pain, sadness, confusion, etc.. When Adam and Eve sinned by eating the forbidden fruit, sin entered the world and a curse was placed on humanity. God gave us free will to sin, and we did. God knows what is going to happen before it happens and he permits these bad things to happen, but ultimately, the bad things are the result of our decision to sin and reject God. God could still intervene anytime he wanted to, but instead he allows things like 9/11 and genocides to happen. I don't really understand why a loving God wouldn't stop these things.

[edit on 17-10-2006 by Mimbster]

[edit on 17-10-2006 by Mimbster]



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by Mimbster
I understand what you are saying. Everything bad that happens in the world is a result of the "fall", or our sin. The world was perfect before sin entered in. There was no death, pain, sadness, confusion, etc.. When Adam and Eve sinned by eating the forbidden fruit, sin entered the world and a curse was placed on humanity. God gave us free will to sin, and we did. God knows what is going to happen before it happens and he permits these bad things to happen, but ultimately, the bad things are the result of our decision to sin and reject God. God could still intervene anytime he wanted too, but instead he allows things like 9/11 to happen. I don't really understand why a loving God wouldn't stop these things.

[edit on 17-10-2006 by Mimbster]


It's really simple, my friend. God doesn't stop these things because He doesn't "own" them. We do someting --Good or Bad--we "own" it. WE did these evil things, here on Earth, and it is the same WE that allow them to continue to be done. If you look in the book of 2nd Timothy, Read especially Chapter 3 to the finish. This is like reading today's and tomorrows Newspapers, and you see the reasons for it, written in the First Century. It is that, today, Men have the FORM of Godliness, but deny the Power of it. They are taken to Myth, and follow False Teachers such as their own comfort chooses, forming their false beliefs to fit their own Lives; forming the Truth to fit themselves, rather than themselves to fit the The truth.

The ultimate reason, as always, isn't "inherited Sin". That is merely a knowledge. We know that knowledge because, in knowing it, we can do something about it. The reality is that, in knowing, WE CONTINUE TO COMMIT IT! (Ok?, NO--we cannot plead "ignorance".)
Well--it isn't "inherited Sin"--its simple DISOBEDIENCE!!
---and of the 11th Commandment; " I command ye to Love one another, even as I have Loved you" The answer is Love, my friend. The opposite is Fear--you choose which you want for yourself--for your kids--for your neighbors--for your Community, your Town, your City, your Country, ---the World.

For me, I know we have fallen as far as we can allow ourselves, and the World, to Fall. It is time to quit falling, and to start properly using the Power granted us by God to climb out of the Abyss we have created for ourselves. Trust my words, it is NOT up to God--it is up to us who know and Love God and believe the Truth of His Words. It is up to us to Choose it--and He is waiting for US--not US, Him. We speak of Faith--and Faith is a Verb --understand that--learn it. You CAN, and you MUST put on the whole armor of God and transcend the Darkness of Fear that shrouds this Planet, rise above it, and take your friends and family with you.

I challenge all of you to do as I do; Live in the World, but not LIKE the World. Live like Jesus was walking beside you, because, seen or not, He truly IS! Quit paying Lip Service to your Faith, and start DOING your Faith--trust me--it isn't that difficult.


df1

posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 06:50 PM
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Originally posted by Mimbster
Well, definitely according to the Bible, God is omniscient and knows everything before it happens. God allowed Hitler to murder millions of God's people (Jews)...

In which bible verse was hitler mentioned? I must have skipped over that verse, like I did the one on stem cell research.



you know what the Christians say...

Christians say many things that they attribute to the bible that aren't contained in the bible. Its hard to know what christians say or what their basis is for saying it. Ive no doubt that jesus in the flesh would find it difficult to figure out that mystery.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 09:28 PM
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Jesus demanded that we not struggle against evil, that we cooperate with the government, and that we give in to the world-system we live in. He told people to not even run away when someone hit them, but to 'turn the other cheek' so that teh enemy could strike it again, to 'render to caesar what is his', and his teachings and followers even went so far as to urge a christian runaway slave to return to his slave master.

Thats because christian teaching has it that this world is entirely meaningless, that the immortal soul is all that matters, because its permanent, and that we shouldn't try to stop the lions from tearing us from limb to limb nor revolt against an unchristian government.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 10:01 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Jesus demanded that we not struggle against evil, that we cooperate with the government, and that we give in to the world-system we live in. He told people to not even run away when someone hit them, but to 'turn the other cheek' so that teh enemy could strike it again, to 'render to caesar what is his', and his teachings and followers even went so far as to urge a christian runaway slave to return to his slave master.

Thats because christian teaching has it that this world is entirely meaningless, that the immortal soul is all that matters, because its permanent, and that we shouldn't try to stop the lions from tearing us from limb to limb nor revolt against an unchristian government.


Like I said, a LOT of people have been mistaught. Nygdan, what you say certainly are the teachings of the Modern Church--decadant and Apostate as it certainly is, but they are definately not the Teachings of Jesus Christ. In fact, they are juxapposed. Please do not confuse the two. Don't get the impression that the Modern Church is immune from False Prophets. To the contrary, it is replete with them; those who would teach you that there is no Power in Christ, those who would have you believe that.

The "grant unto Caeser" phrase is taken out of context, and was the answer given by Jesus to the Saduces who asked Jesus regarding the paying of Taxes. FWIW Paying Taxes is "granting unto Caeser". Cowtowing to Evil and Ill deeds, condoning Lies, and
giving in to Evil in the World is NOT "being a Christian"--it is being Stupid. God never condoned Slavery--he, in fact, led Moses to free inslaved Israel in Egypt. God cannot and does not contradict Himself--it is a Spiritual Law layed down by Him in the Beginning--He keeps His Word--He MUST--or He Ceases to be Holy and worthy of worship and following.




posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 01:52 PM
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Of course god can contradict himself, he's not bound by anything logic familiar to man. God demanded that the hebrews not kill, then ordered them to kill entire tribes. The bible says moses lead the hebrews from slavery in egypt, but that ended in what, babylonian captivity. And the bible also says that Paul told a runaway slave who was a christian to return to his master. They didn't want to upset the foundations of roman society, because roman society was temporal and meaningless, only the spiritual 'world' was important to them. Of course jesus didn't come to overthrow the 'evil' roman empire, he let himself be tortured and executed by it. His passion and miracle were not a militant revolution overthrowing a despot.



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 04:50 PM
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The Old Testament of the Bible is replete with examples of God changing his mind for various reasons, either just a reevaluation of the situation or debate with a human.

[edit on 10/19/2006 by djohnsto77]



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 04:59 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Of course god can contradict himself, he's not bound by anything logic familiar to man. God demanded that the hebrews not kill, then ordered them to kill entire tribes. The bible says moses lead the hebrews from slavery in egypt, but that ended in what, babylonian captivity. And the bible also says that Paul told a runaway slave who was a christian to return to his master. They didn't want to upset the foundations of roman society, because roman society was temporal and meaningless, only the spiritual 'world' was important to them. Of course jesus didn't come to overthrow the 'evil' roman empire, he let himself be tortured and executed by it. His passion and miracle were not a militant revolution overthrowing a despot.


I think there is a difference between murder and killing in wars. The commandment says that you shall not murder, and killing in self-defense is certainly not murder. The God of the Bible is a just God, he punished people in the OT because they deserved it, like Sodom and Gomorrah for example, those cities were sinful and wicked in God's eyes. The Israelites are God's chosen people, God blessed them when they were in his favor (not worshipping other gods) and punished them when they weren't in his favor. Jesus, on the other hand, died for the sins of the world, so that we wouldn't be executed for fornicating, or for adultery, like in the OT. However, the Bible says that we must place our faith in Jesus, or risk eternal Hellfire.



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 05:06 PM
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As a libertarian... I don't think you understand what a libertarian is. I believe in state rights, the governments only job is to uphold the constitution.. not BECOME the constitution, which it has.

What would Jesus do? .. well the "Book" was written by Romans, for Romans, to serve the Romans. It is a pagen religion formed by Romans to appease the people, to form their own religion that the people wanted while retaining all the power. Conspiracy? you betcha, it was single handedly the best crafted scheme of all time, still to this day after 2,000 years over 1 billion follow the Mother Church, the Roman Catholic Church is histories single most influencial institution EVER formed. That does not count the hundreds of millions of protestants that think they are different then the Catholics, while their beliefs derive from the same falsley put together "Book"..... Of course I am agnostic so.....



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