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How did Atta's passport actually survive?

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posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 08:38 AM
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Originally posted by ViewFromTheStars
I think they only big part of the planes that actually hit the ground after impact was parts of the engines.


Huh?? Part of the plane hit the ground? I don't even think the turbines where recovered.




posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 08:43 AM
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This is from Wicki, so take with a grain of salt.



Four days after the attacks, the FBI claimed to have found al-Suqami's passport among the rubble on Vesey Street. (This was mistakenly reported by many news outlets to be Mohammed Atta's passport) Some news organizations openly doubted this report, questioning the idea that his passport had escaped from the inferno relatively unsinged. According to testimony before the 9/11 Commission by lead counsel Susan Ginsburg, his passport had been "manipulated in a fraudulent manner". [3]


4 days after? I thought they found it before the collapses? Or did they just admit to finding it (on 9/11) 4 days later? I'm confused by this.

Edit: BTW, Vesey Street runs along the WTC complex. Which is nearer than the picture from Albany street. So, I would imagine that there was alot more debris than in the photo from Albany Street.

[edit on 9/29/2006 by Griff]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 09:07 AM
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Ok now Im totally confused. Someone said it was Attas passport, then someone said it was found immediately before all the debris. LOL Someone straighten this out!



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 09:18 AM
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Finding Atta's passport was truly a miraculous discovery. Considering that the passport was blown out of the plane, through a fireball of incredible intensity and, of course heat, how could this document survive? It can only mean that there was a government conspiracy of immense proportions. Furthermore, it would also point to the arrogance of the government. Did the government really believe that they could suddenly pull Atta's passport out of the air and say that they found it at the crash scene? What a load of, well, crap! Things like this simply don't happen. Things like this, finding Atta's passport, was simply too convenient! Does this freak occurence mean that something was afoot? Does the discovery of Atta's passport, a highly unlikely event, "obviously" point to a conspiracy?
But wait......

Things DO happen. Events that are improbable, at best, DO occur.

On August 16th, 1987, a Northwest Airlines, flight 255 crashed in Romulus, Michigan. Flight 255 is my "proof" that the unlikely can and does happen. On that fateful day, the McDonnell Douglas Super MD-80 crashed shortly after takeoff. Because, as it was later determined, of a lack of electrical power to the aircraft takeoff warning system and the failure of the flight crew to use their "taxi checklist" to ensure the extension of the plane's flaps, the plane crashed shortly after takeoff. The plane slammed into a nearby freeway killing 155 passengers and crewmembers (2 people on the ground were also killed). The only survivor was a 4 year old girl!



the crash of NWA flight 255

How could a four year old girl have possibly survived such a devastating crash? Keep in mind that the crash took place moments after take off, the plane was filled with fuel and that the plane lost altitude and smashed into a freeway overpass! How could a small child be the only survivor?

Was this some sort of government conspiracy? Was this an indication that the government was involved in some sort of bizarre plot to confuse the American people? What role could the young girl have played in this bizarre plot. Or maybe, just maybe, there was no crash. Yeah, that's it, the government "set up" the crash scene, planted thousands of witnesses to the event and, amidst the rubble of the supposed plane crash, they "placed" a small child into the remnants of the wreckage of the plane, a bridge and dozens of automobiles. Yeah, that's it.

Of course, I am being facetious and I'm trying to make a point. It is possible, no matter how unlikely, that Atta's passport could have survived. It is not so far-fetched and out of the realm of possibility that this could have occurred as it was reported. Miracles do, indeed happen. After all, a miracle happened amid tragedy in Detroit.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 09:31 AM
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Originally posted by benevolent tyrant

Of course, I am being facetious and I'm trying to make a point. It is possible, no matter how unlikely, that Atta's passport could have survived. It is not so far-fetched and out of the realm of possibility that this could have occurred as it was reported. Miracles do, indeed happen. After all, a miracle happened amid tragedy in Detroit.


Bolded by me. You said it there....as it was reported. Since it was reported in error a few times, how do we know the exact story?

BTW, I believe it could have survived.....I just don't buy the "guy in a suit 30 year old" crap. I'm sorry but why was nothing else found of interest? Why couldn't they have found the documments about ENRON instead? Convenient those weren't found huh? What about the paper trail of the trillions missing from the pentagon? They can find a passport but they can't find that?



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by Griff
I'm sorry but why was nothing else found of interest? Why couldn't they have found the documments about ENRON instead? Convenient those weren't found huh? What about the paper trail of the trillions missing from the pentagon? They can find a passport but they can't find that?


I don't know why "nothing else of interest was found". I don't know why they didn't find ENRON documents -- except for the fact that they weren't on the plane to begin with and have done so would have been grounds for the Vatican to declare an unequivocable miracle. As for missing missing millions, billions or trillions from the Pentagon, well the same reason holds, there was no evidence of this on the plane to begin with.

What we are asking is how Atta's passport could have been found at the site of a devastating crash and the answer to that is simple....the passport was on the plane and it, somehow survived. Yes, it was improbable that the passport could have survived but it was not impossible.

As for your other questions, these things would have had to have been on the plane to begin with and, of course, divine intervention would have had to occurred. Please don't confuse or try to cloud the issues. You might as well have asked why they didn't find evidence from the Lindbergh Baby kidnapping. The question is "could Attas' passport survived a plane crash? Well, obviously, yes.....the passport could have survived.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 11:41 AM
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I see nothing remarkable in a passport surviving from one of the crashed planes on 9-11. In 1984 a Navy A-7 attack bomber crashed, with a 1000 lb. bomb on board, killing the pilot. The bomb detonated on impact, scattering the wreckage over a field. A few days later the pilot's leather wallet was found with it's contents intact, about 400 yards from the impact site. Unless I am mistaken, passports are usually covered with leather or vinyl, both of which offer decent protection. No, the passport doesn't suprise me. What does suprise me, is reading this entire thread and still having no idea who's passport was recovered, when it was recovered, how it was recovered and was there even a passport at all? There is so many theories, fantasies and fabrications out about the events of 9-11, that you can't take anything at face value. Who's telling the truth and who has an ax to grind? If there is something being covered-up about 9-11, threads like this one are only aiding in it by adding to the confusion.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 11:50 AM
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I disagree Jim. I feel we are trying to get to the truth of the matter. I also feel we are not aiding in any confusion. The confusion was that it was Atta's passport (which the US media started that one I believe) and we have come to the conclusion that it wasn't Atta's passport. So, we've at least stopped that disinformation....which is a step in the right direction IMO.

[edit on 9/29/2006 by Griff]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by JIMC5499
I see nothing remarkable in a passport surviving from one of the crashed planes on 9-11. I


Just like you see NOTHING "remarkable" about any of the 1,000 other coincidences surrounding 9/11...

Sure... IT COULD HAVE POPPED OUT... What are the odds? 1:100? 1:1000? 1:1,000,000?

This is just like WTC 7, Molten Steel, Flying planes 3' off the ground, NORAD Stand Down, Total exlposive collapse of WTC 1 and 2... THEY TECHNICALLY COULD ALL HAPPEN... but what exactly are the ODDS and at what point is it like Mega Millions (1:73,000,000) and just all nearly impossible?

finally, it is not just A passport, it is one of the hijackers passports... What are the odds?

[edit on 29-9-2006 by Slap Nuts]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by Griff
This is from Wicki, so take with a grain of salt.



Four days after the attacks, the FBI claimed to have found al-Suqami's passport among the rubble on Vesey Street. (This was mistakenly reported by many news outlets to be Mohammed Atta's passport) Some news organizations openly doubted this report, questioning the idea that his passport had escaped from the inferno relatively unsinged. According to testimony before the 9/11 Commission by lead counsel Susan Ginsburg, his passport had been "manipulated in a fraudulent manner". [3]


4 days after? I thought they found it before the collapses? Or did they just admit to finding it (on 9/11) 4 days later? I'm confused by this.

Edit: BTW, Vesey Street runs along the WTC complex. Which is nearer than the picture from Albany street. So, I would imagine that there was alot more debris than in the photo from Albany Street.

[edit on 9/29/2006 by Griff]


What would be even more amazing if this is true is the fact that Vesey St. is on the north side of the WTC complex, which is the same direction flight 11 came from. Wouldn't it be much harder for the passport to be found on the same side of the building that the plane hit? It was traveling 500mph. . .south!



Albany St. is south of the WTC complex. . .



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 12:22 PM
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Originally posted by Slap Nuts

finally, it is not just A passport, it is one of the hijackers passports... What are the odds?


Not only that, there was another "passport/visa" found at the 93 crash site...of one of the hijackers....what are the odds of now 2 being found?

There was also a "passport/visa" found at the pentagon.....guess of who...a hijacker...go figure.....now, what are the odds of all 3 of these not only surviving but being found then? I'm trying to find sources right now but I'm pretty sure that there were at least 3 of the hijackers "passports/visas" found at the crash sites.

I can go along with one. But three at the three crash sites (I'm including WTC as one crash site)? Now the odds are becoming more and more astronomical.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by 2PacSade
What would be even more amazing if this is true is the fact that Vesey St. is on the north side of the WTC complex, which is the same direction flight 11 came from. Wouldn't it be much harder for the passport to be found on the same side of the building that the plane hit? It was traveling 500mph. . .south!



Albany St. is south of the WTC complex. . .


You're right. Now it didn't only survive to be picked up. It survived and went the wrong way to be picked up? It gets more fishy as the time goes by doesn't it? No wonder people don't want us looking into this stuff.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 12:58 PM
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No problem with where it was found as far as I'm concerned. If you watch the Naudet video you'll see lots of material being blown out to the North of the building - don't know what it was but if the passport was in the passenger cabin it could have gone anywhere as the plane began to disintegrate.

Alternatively it could have drifted or fluttered in any direction on the way down. Not only did it fall an awfully long way there would have been a hell of a lot of strange thermal currents from the explosion in addition to the normal wind up there.

Three passports in three locations could be considered good or bad news depending on other factors. If these were the only three passports found then I would have to agree it was remarkable although not impossible (bear in mind that on an internal flight the majority of passengers would probably not have been carrying passports). However, I posted earlier that 54,000 small objects were found at the WTC alone and we have no idea how many passports were included in that number - certainly photographs and ID cards were also found although we don't know if they came from planes or not.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by timeless test
However, I posted earlier that 54,000 small objects were found at the WTC alone and we have no idea how many passports were included in that number - certainly photographs and ID cards were also found although we don't know if they came from planes or not.


I can agree with this to an extent. If other passports/visas/IDs/Drivers Linceses were found also, then why did they automatically blame it on the Muslim passengers and not "everyone is a suspect"? I know everyone's going to say that they knew these guys were terrorists blah, blah, blah. Well, if they knew...why didn't they stop it? And if they knew....then they lied to the 9/11 Commission among other things. Just doesn't add up if you ask me.

Also, of the 54,000 small objects at the WTC....how many were from the actual planes and how many were from the collapses? i.e....How many of these objects survived the plane impacts as oppossed to just being in the WTC buildings when they fell?

I'm willing to bet the percentage is something like .05% from the planes....99.5% from the collapses....but I'll reserve judgement for now....until those questions have been answered.

It's easy to say 54,000 blah blah and connect that with "the passport could have survived also"....but if it turns out to be the only thing found from the crashes (or among a few things) it becomes very suspect in my book.

Edit: For some reason I skipped over the last couple of words in your post..."although we don't know if they came from the planes or not"....answers my question about if you knew this or not. Doh....

[edit on 9/29/2006 by Griff]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by Griff
There was also a "passport/visa" found at the pentagon.....guess of who...a hijacker...go figure.....now, what are the odds of all 3 of these not only surviving but being found then? I'm trying to find sources right now but I'm pretty sure that there were at least 3 of the hijackers "passports/visas" found at the crash sites.


Not good since at the Pentagon they cannot find:

The wings
Any of the seats
The tail
...



what are the odds that the WING SPAR VAPORIZED, but a BOOKLET OF PAPER survived?



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 01:43 PM
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The passports survived, due to the fact that they were in George W Bush' wallet. I'm kidding.......sort of.
I truly believe that they were planted. The reasons have been stated and re-stated so many times. Fires hot enough to melt steel, but not burn paper. How many bodies were never found? Not even the tiniest fragment of said bodies. But sure enough, those passports were found. C'mon......
I think that whatever super-duper material was used to make these passports should be manufactured to build houses with. No more house fires!



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by lombozo
I think that whatever super-duper material was used to make these passports should be manufactured to build houses with. No more house fires!


Or better yet...the new WTC complex. No more worries of terrorist attacks then. Then we can get rid of the "Patriot Act" since there would be no threat from terrorists once and for all.

Seriously though, can anyone really believe that a hijacker's passport at all three crash sites survived and was found?



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 04:42 PM
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Well heres my thoery. As the U.S Government can do lot of things secretive without American citizens knowing the truth (well for a while). It wouldn't suprise me if there was no passport in the aircraft. The chances are that the passport was specially made and planted by someone who had acces to the site of the WTC after it has been demolished. When it is found it is just another part of the big cover up.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 09:24 PM
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[removed]

Of freaking course passports can be found after a plane crash fool.
Even if the planes did burst into one hell of a fireball on impact into a skyscraper.
I find you foolish to believe that a passport could not survive based alone on the fact that pieces of airplanes are found after crashes as well.
Even though the twin towers collapsed later on, it is still feasible that the passports did survive because of the fact that there were remnants of the steel towers as well.
Simple as that... case solved.

-Sherlock Holmes

[edit on 29-9-2006 by chibidai_rrr]

Courtesy is Mandatory



[edit on 10-18-2006 by worldwatcher]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 11:01 PM
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My thoughts on the matter are:

it is possible that a passport survived the crash

it is possible that it didn't get buried under other debris and was therefor visible to passers by

it is possible that it was spotted by a passer by within an hour or so of it landing on the ground

it is possible that this passer by wasn't panicking like some other ppl and took the time to pick it up

it is possible this passer by thought that the nearby policeman probably wasn't too busy to collect lost property at this time and decided to hand the passport to him rather than into the nearest police station

the fact that this passport would turn out to be the first piece of cruicial evidence found that could point the finger at who was responsible for the crash starts to read like the plot of a bad Agatha Christie story IMHO, this along with the fact that this passer by, as far as i'm aware, has never been heard of since, sounds like a wee fib to me.



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