Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa
isn't it the instinct which says they want to be attractive for men so more men want to reproduce with them... that's also just instinctual...

Isn't everything we do done because we want to increase our chances of ourselves... and the chances of survival of the race itself...

[Edited on 9-11-2003 by LeenBekkemaa]

I see what you're saying but I don't think that the origin of a specific "Need or Want" even when it's an instinctual one, Cancels out the Intelligent Thinking Used in either Satisfying or Ignoring that Desire.

Using the Definitions Provided Below:

Intelligence
in·tel·li·gence
The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.
The faculty of thought and reason.
Superior powers of mind.

Instinct
in·stinct
An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli: (the spawning instinct in salmon; altruistic instincts in social animals.)
A powerful motivation or impulse.
An innate capability or aptitude: an instinct for tact and diplomacy.

The intelligent and Logical Reasoning and Problem Solving abilities of all Creatures including Humankind which are used for reasons both "innate" or "contrived" are still degrees of "Intelligence". Certainly it would be "Intelligence" when dealing with a "contrived" or "created" non-inborn desire at the very least.

I am still not sure where you are going with this in relation to the topic. Are you trying to say that HumanKind in no way whatsoever has or uses "Intelligence" and is completely motivated and controlled just by "Instinct"???

An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli:

Doesn't that inborn pattern makes everything we do?

Yes I think that everything we do is given by our instinct... it is not in violation with it. I think our so-called intelligence is just the information and decisions which flow out of those inborn patterns and behavior...

Is it a choice that you try to make food, to produce it while other animals don't... or is it just our intellect which increases the chance of survival given by our instinct... but then on higher levels (space trips on other planets aren't there for curiosity... but for trying to make it possible to be not dependant of the earth.. trying to increase chance of survival... given by instinct...).

I think intelligence is just an expansion of the instinct... and it is never in violation with the instinct...

There is no real intelligence.. just control of the instinct...

Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa
Yes I think that everything we do is given by our instinct... it is not in violation with it. I think our so-called intelligence is just the information and decisions which flow out of those inborn patterns and behavior...

I wasn't born with any inborn patterns or behaviors or knowledge in any way shape or form that enabled me to have the ability and know how to "Build/Use/Repair" Personal Computers. I did however "LEARN" or "AQUIRE KNOWLEDGE" from EXTERNAL SOURCES that now enables me to "Build/Use/Repair" PC's. Regardless of WHY I Intentionally put forth the effort to aquire such knowledge, I did Learn it. Leaning that new information IS the Process of INTELLIGENCE, NOT INSTINCT. That knowledge did not spring from within me, it was aquired from outside any internal sources. Does that make sense now???

Is it a choice that you try to make food, to produce it while other animals don't... or is it just our intellect which increases the chance of survival given by our instinct... but then on higher levels (space trips on other planets aren't there for curiosity... but for trying to make it possible to be not dependant of the earth.. trying to increase chance of survival... given by instinct...).

I think intelligence is just an expansion of the instinct... and it is never in violation with the instinct...

There is no real intelligence.. just control of the instinct...

What you wrote is a contradiction of itself. If "There is no real intelligence..." how can there be "Intelligence as just an expansion of the instinct"???? "Instinct" cannot be the expansion of "Instinct" since they are the same thing. Plus how can "Intellect increases the chance of survival given by our instinct" as you stated above when at the same time you claim "There is no real intelligence..."????

This is going nowhere and fast. Mainly because IMO your Reasoning and Logic is faulty. The Process of Learning External Knowledge is "Intelligence" even if the motivation behind that process is "Internal". The Knowledge does not come from within you, as it's already defined as being EXTERNAL in Origin.

Im fairly sure we havent been the only 'intelligent' race on Earth. Past, Present (hidden) or whatever, think of how much we dont know before events and activity was documentated.... thats a good few million years Surely there must have been, just like surely there must be intelligent life out in space

Mojom, this is going somewhere because my reasoning isn't faulty.

You say you got external information? You still use that information to increase your chances of survival. You haven't been born with that knowledge? You have been born with the patterns which let's you use the external knowledge to increase the chances of survival.

I made a contradiction? Perhaps if you didn't understand what I meant I did... some other people might say that I said that their is no real intelligence as we think it is (intelligence which stays loos from the instinct) and that I said the information (the intelligence) is just an addition to the Instinc...

What makes you think you do something without using your instinct? Because the intelligence as you call it looks so different then the instinct? Or do you have to say it's also just information to increase the chances of survival.. and your instinct just uses that information to increase the chance of survival...

Were am I faulty in my reasoning.. where is the logic disappearing?

Ok, look....All I'm saying is that "Intelligence" Does Exist as well as "Instinct". I'm not trying to say they work totally independant of each other or anything like that, but we are dealing with 2 different terms here, hence the 2 differnet words. If it makes more sense to think of "Intelligence" as Not-Yet-Aquired-Instinct, or "Instinct" as Currently-Known-&-Accessible-Intelligence, that is fine with me I guess. I personally am going to stick with the Normal definitions that I posted since those are the ones that everyone can and has agreed upon. Essentially I think you're just incorperating the two words and their meanings into one and calling it "Instinct". I am keeping them separate since they are in fact 2 different words and do not have the same exact meaning. It really doesn't matter to me anymore either way since the Topic isn't about Humankind using "Intelligence" or "Instinct" but about Humankind being the only "Intelligent" Race. Or in your terms Humankind being the only "Instinctual" Race or whatever....I'm not sure exactly......

I understand the difference between the 2 words and thier meanings and see no point in trying to combine/remove/intermix them.....I'm am stopping now though..... :up

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer
the question is, would it still be a dog if it has our body and our brain? ahhh, no?

Well technically it wouldn't be a dog, but if its mind got into our body. When I said brain, all I meant is our 'processing speed' if that makes any sense, not any of our knowledge.

Let's clear some things up:

First, we have to define intelligence. It's not WHAT you know, it's HOW you're able to acquire it. The dictionary defines it as:
1.The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.
2.The faculty of thought and reason.

Humans are "smart" not just because we know things, but how we are ABLE to know things. We can reason, question, and think for ourselves.

Second, the closest cousin to the human as far as intelligence goes is the Chimpanzee, NOT the Dolphin. Dolphins are very intelligent, but are not equal to chimps or most great apes. Chimps are estimated to have roughly the same intelligence as a 4 year old child. They can reason out basic problems, they can convey emotions or thoughts rudementally, and in some cases can even do things like set traps or plan for things. Coco, the female gorilla, has a sign language vocabulary of about 1,00, words and is able to express emotion such as fear, happiness, worry, etc almost verbally through hand signs. There's no doubt the minds of apes and chimps has alot in common with our own.

With that said, the human brain is without any doubt the most advanced of any creatures on this planet, bar none. The ability, capacity, complexity, and useability of the human brain is not rivaled by any other creature on the earth that we know of (gotta throw that cryptozoological intrigue in ). But the simple fact is that the human brain is what has made us what we are today. Nothing else got us here (aside from opposable thumbs, which did help). But let's be real: If you gave a chimp opposable thumbs, that would be very interesting, no doubt, but that doesnt change the fact that they would STILL have the brain capacity and reasoning of a 4 year old.

The human brain is every bit as much of a tool or weapon as teeth, wings, or claws. In fact, It is the most prolific, deadly, and fascinating tool on this earth.

There are many other intelligent creatures in the world, no doubt, but to say that there are species (that we know of) that rival, or even come close to rivaling the intelligence of mankind is false, and you're just kidding yourself.

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer
you know what i think really drags ATS down? idiots who think they are some kind of philosopher or prophet, and speak in halfassed riddles trying to make their mundane points sound more plausible. speak words we can all understand, not just those of us who are eating mushrooms by the pound. and i sure as hell dont mean portabello.

LOL.... great point!..that made me laugh alot cuz it is very true