LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was Not Even Considered Until 1830

Originally posted by Valhall
Yeah, and it's at the end of the tribulation when Christ returns:

10Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12"But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13This will result in your being witnesses to them. 14But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish. 19By standing firm you will gain life.

20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Luke 21:25 in context

I see nothing that says the rapture is after the tribulation. Can you point this out to me?

[edit on 11-10-2006 by Sun Matrix]

Just one thing, Sun Matrix,

During Jesus time everything he preached, his teachings were within the time line of his mortality and that of his disciples and followers.

He never talks about any futuristic times of doom at all.

How is that? Then came the Apostles letters to tell a different story after death.

No, Jesus death was the culmination as per bible believes of his job in earth to die for man kind so everybody would be save.

Even if he never fulfilled the Jewish Messiah role.

So anything else that came after Jesus death is nothing than interpretations and that is how has been for centuries.

Because nobody can believe that after Jesus was turned into a divinity by Paul could just die and be gone.

And that is why we have so many church denominations with different views of what they bible and Jesus teachings were all about.

Then who is right and who is wrong? When nobody can agree and come out with the same conclusion.

Leave it to the hart of man to make their own assumptions.

Originally posted by marg6043
Just one thing, Sun Matrix,

During Jesus time everything he preached, his teachings were within the time line of his mortality and that of his disciples and followers.

He never talks about any futuristic times of doom at all.

I can't agree Marg. Read Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix


I see nothing that says the rapture is after the tribulation. Can you point this out to me?

[edit on 11-10-2006 by Sun Matrix]

No, Sun Matrix, because You're hell-bent on believing what makes you feel comfortable.

Proof I'm right on how you'll continue to ignore evidence - your post just before this one, that has already been answered. You just don't want to accept it.

Good luck on that one. By the way, going with what the scripture says - and living off faith that in the end God's will will be done even if it means you might have to go through seven years of hell, is a lot more spiritually healthy than hanging on a man-made lie you're getting cloud-train out of it.

And I don't particularly care what precarious position you place yourself in, but I'll continue to speak against people who spread such a dangerous, unscriptural teaching.

Don't bother asking me to show you anything else. Two times of repeating myself and getting the same response is a sure sign number three would be insane.

P.S. Your behavior is equivalent to being in a debate about whether Jesus was happy about the death of Lazarus and your opponent quoting...

"Jesus wept." John 11:35


And you coming back and saying "show me where that says he was sad".

edit




[edit on 10-11-2006 by Valhall]

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

I can't agree Marg. Read Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

I understand Sun Matrix, I understand, because the bible is so full of contradictions perhaps due to the human that compiled the bible that is the reason we can fill threads and threads with bible quotes and never agree with the same meaning.

You show me Matt 24 and luke 21 and I will give you Matt. 28 when is obvious that it refers to the generation of the time and Luke 24:13 when it obviously talks about the two disciples disappointment because Jesus never fulfilled the Messianic hopes.

Matt. 10:23, Matt 16:28 and many more that clearly refers to Jesus and his teachings as to be of his time and not references to a time line spanning centuries.

No wonder we may agree with some things but deep down we all see what we see and want to see.

Originally posted by Valhall


No, Sun Matrix, because You're hell-bent on believing what makes you feel comfortable.

I believe what the word says, nothing less. There was nothing in Luke 21 that said anything about the rapture being after the tribulation. Luke tells what Jesus says prior to the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled. He say there will be signs in the sun and the moon and the stars. Then he say when you see these things BEGIN to happen look up your redemption is near.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Proof I'm right on how you'll continue to ignore evidence - your post just before this one, that has already been answered. You just don't want to accept it.

I merely asked you to point out the verse that said the rapture was after the tribulation from what you posted. You failed to do so. How is this my fault?

And I don't particularly care what precarious position you place yourself in, but I'll continue to speak against people who spread such a dangerous, unscriptural teaching.

How my position dangerous and how is it unscriptual?

Don't bother asking me to show you anything else. Two times of repeating myself and getting the same response is a sure sign number three would be insane.

I missed your point completely. I asked you to show me where it said that the rapture was after the tribulation in the verse you provided and you did not provide an answer. If my belief is unscriptural then it should be a simple process of providing the proper scripture that proves the pre trib rapture is wrong.


I haven't quite figured out why the pre trib rapture is upsetting to people.

You've been provided that answer in a number of posts.

And the reason that some folks get upset about this false teaching has been explained a number of times as well. Yet another example of you ignoring what you don't want to acknowledge, I guess.

Originally posted by Valhall
You've been provided that answer in a number of posts.

And the reason that some folks get upset about this false teaching has been explained a number of times as well. Yet another example of you ignoring what you don't want to acknowledge, I guess.

You say it is unscriptual but provide no proof of this. It seems to me the truth of the Word should speek for itstelf.

I have no problem letting the truth of the Word speak for itself and see absolutlely no danger in believing exactly what the Word says.

If your arguement is scriptural I wish you would provide the facts.

Show me where it says the rapture will occur before the tribulation.

Originally posted by Valhall
Show me where it says the rapture will occur before the tribulation.

Here for one.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix


Here for one.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Where in there does it say anything about the rapture occurring before the tribulation. I just don't see it. Show me.

Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by Sun Matrix


Here for one.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Where in there does it say anything about the rapture occurring before the tribulation. I just don't see it. Show me.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken

When you see what things BEGIN to come to pass? The things that are coming on the earth which is the tribulation. Not the things that have happened already.

Originally posted by marg6043




You show me Matt 24 and luke 21 and I will give you Matt. 28 when is obvious that it refers to the generation of the time and Luke 24:13 when it obviously talks about the two disciples disappointment because Jesus never fulfilled the Messianic hopes.

Matt. 10:23, Matt 16:28 and many more that clearly refers to Jesus and his teachings as to be of his time and not references to a time line spanning centuries.

No offense Marg, but this isn't telling me anything I don't know or that is valid to the point made. You made the following statement and I provided Matt. 24 and Luke 21 as scriptural proof to challenge your statement.

During Jesus time everything he preached, his teachings were within the time line of his mortality and that of his disciples and followers. He never talks about any futuristic times of doom at all.

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are talking about futuristic times. Mark 13 also parallels Matthew 24.

Redemption drawing nigh does not mean arrived. And redemption does not mean rapture necessarily either. When the man-child in Revelation 12 is "caught up to the throne" and sealed with the authority of Christ it is redeemed, not removed from the earth. Moses, as a type of man-child, returned to the people after he was sealed and redeemed to lead them out of Egyptian bondage. That is the man-child corporate body of believers job in these last 7 years.

I also love the argument where they quote Rev 3:10 about keeping you from the hour of testing. They always forget that that was written to only one of 7 churches (there are 6 others not kept from it) and they assume that keeping means that they are removed from the earth. That is an assumption at best.

Jesus said that the end times would be like the "Days of Noah". True, there are several points in which that is true:

1. We will know when the covenant is made since Noah knew that "yet seven days and I will rain upon the earth"

2. There were giants that were hybrids on the earth at the time. A mixture of Godly and ungodly. Who are the spiritual giants today and why are they so...because the preach a gospel that appeals to the flesh....it's a mixture as are they.

3. Watch this math closely. In the case of Noah, God warned him that the rain would start in 7 days. Then he would rain on the earth 40 days and nights. The the Ark would lift off the earth. If the 7 days are 365 day years, the total number of days is 7*365+40 = 2595. Now consider revelation and Daniel which state that 1260 days the woman is nurtured in the wilderness, then the abomination of desolation is setup then there shall be 1290 days, blessed are those who live to see the 1335 days. What is 1260 + 1335? 2595!!! The book of Daniel is using the lunar calendar of the ancient hebrews which has 360 day years with an additional month added in every 6 years. Starting to see a pattern here, folks?
Very different math, same number of days. Noah was up above the seas (above the curse which devoured the world) for about a year as will we during the 8th year, the Day of the Lord (Is 34:8) which happens after the Sun and Moon are darkened at the end of the tribulation period. The Day of the Lord is the period of God's absolute wrath. We are up in heaven with Jesus in that year when the wrath is poured out.

4. We know from 1 Thes 4:16-17, that the resurrection of the dead immediately preceeds the rapture. From Rev 20:5, we know that the resurrection occurs after the great martyrdom in the second half of the tribulation. And just in case people start in with the many resurrections argument, God also adds at the end of the verse, "this is the first resurrection".

Romans 11 talks about how we who are under the second covenant will also be tested. I keep wondering whether the people who keep spouting about the pre-trib rapture don't see the continuity of scripture of God coming against the last of the fleshly ways in us and testing us or whether they don't want to see. Perhaps they are just clinging to a vain hope that God won't put them through this. He will put us through it.

How do you tell the wheat from the tares in a crop? The wheat bows over with fruit (submits) and the tares do not bend at all - they stand defiant. How do you harvest wheat? You cut the tops off (beheaded for their testimony).

Just a thought.....

Greetings:

Anyone with one eye can see what is going on here. Shame, shame. And only 4 warnings for one offense. Heh . . . The fact is that none of my debating opponents are giving ‘their’ interpretations to Paul’s words on this topic given to the ‘churches’ of our NT. How many ways are there to interpret these things?

“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 1Corinthians 15:51-55.

“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God [1Cor. 15:52] , and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to MEET THE LORD in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Since I have no clue about which words of mine caused these multiple warnings to be handed out, I will not be working to hold these members accountable for their ridiculous teachings. A warning is a 'warning' with fines and penalties coming afterwards when the same behavior continues. People like Flyer and Sun Matrix do nothing but hound me from thread to thread never writing on the topic, but continuing their name calling campaign with the approval of the Mods. Nothing is more sickening that a double standard.

GL,

Terral

Sun Matrix

You tell me that itsn’t telling anything that you already don’t know.

But do you really know what you think you know? Because I see it in a different light.

So you challenging my statements that are also from Matt and Luke to make your statements valid.

See the controvercy? We can use the bible quotes and the same Gospels until the pages may fall apart and still I can contradict what you say and you can do the same.

Should we call it Human error, because divine error is not.

Whos futuristic views are we talking about the ones of Jesus teachings if he ever gave any of the futuristic interpretations of Matthew and Luke.

Who was the devine incarnation, Jesus or Matt and Luke?

So why should I believe the word of men or their interpretations? I believe mine the same way that you believe yours.

It seems to me that the whole myth of the predictions of Doomsdays is nothing more than trying to rectify the fact that Jesus never fulfilled the Messianic expectations and he has to come back one second time to do just that. Right?

Why should he? When very clear he already die for the sins of the world. Right?

John’s Gospel and Paul’s epistles are the ones that made Jesus into a divinity that will be back to fulfill the end of times predictions.

Jesus himself talked about a second coming but he never spoke about a return from heaven some thousand years later.

Matt. 10:23 “Not have gone over all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come”

Two thousand years have gone since this statement and the Son of Man did not come, we will never know if the 12 disciples ever travel all the cities of Israel.

Matt16:28 “There are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom”

Well unless is some immortals walking among us in secret the generations when this was spoken are not where to be found. But we all know that this was spoken to the disciples.

Matt24:1-51 The prophecy that has been know in Fundamentalists circles to be of the “last days”, But is also been refuted by scholars that claims that this chapter records events that were already taken place because Matthew was written during 80-90 AD.







[edit on 12-10-2006 by marg6043]

Should I believe what fundamentalist tell me?

Or should we denied that Jesus spoke in private to his disciples and his disciples alone.

Matt 24:3 “And they came unto him privately, saying, tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Jesus after giving a list of happenings, adding to it, ”Then shall they deliver y9u up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and you shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake” (verse 9) .

That sounds to me like the disciples were to be very well alive for the end of times. Right?

”And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”

Verse 33 “So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors”

Verse 34 “Veryly I say unto you, This generation should no pass, till all these things be fulfilled”

Humm . . .Well the generation did pass away and The Son of man has not returned, so where in any of those quotes said that we most wait two thousand years?

The only things that happen during the disciples lives was the temple destroyed, false Christs as mentioned by Paul, and some of the disciples persecuted by Romans.

Perhaps the last to die was John and his death marked the end of the generations of the time of Jesus teachings.

But occurs we got the experts that will tell us that the meaning of generations is to be the generations of that will be living in the during the end of time.

But guess what I will stick with the bible itself and what it say anything else including the Revelations book is not something I trust or believe to be part of the bible at all.

Mark14:62 “Ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven”

That seems to be a false prophecy because the chiefs priest never lived to see that coming.

See I can go on and on and do like Mr. Terral and still nobody here will be able to agree with each other interpretations.

That is my whole point.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

That is rather simple,Sun Matrix. It means to pray that you have passed away before the "end times".

Originally posted by Terral
Greetings:

Anyone with one eye can see what is going on here. Shame, shame. And only 4 warnings for one offense. Heh . . . The fact is that none of my debating opponents are giving ‘their’ interpretations to Paul’s words on this topic given to the ‘churches’ of our NT. How many ways are there to interpret these things?

You keep saying that and I have given you an interpretation of it twice which you have quite conveniently ignored. You know what that tells me? You are not interested in anyone elses interpretation;you just want to spread your drivel,Terral. Have a good day,Sir!!