LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was Not Even Considered Until 1830

Originally posted by marg6043
I will like to know how do you know that your are right and others are not in your interpretations.

Oh,just by the two verses I just posted from the bible,we can clearly see that,Terral, is oh so wrong on this particular topic. If you live by the sword,you will die by it,Terral. There is no legitimate suggestion anywhere in the bible that there is going to be a lifting away of anyone. Yes, there will be those who are under God's devine protection,like I posted earlier and you didn't bother to reply , but that protection in no way includes a "lifting away".

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Terral,since you are so keen on quoting scripture. I suggest that you and others who are looking for a miraculous sign or rapture to keep these words in mind. Matthew 16:2-4

MT 16:2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
MT 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
MT 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

After all, most rapture believers do say that it will be a sign of the end. The bible is quite explicit that there will be know such signs. Jesus also said that he will come "as a thief in the night," now, the mass abduction of millions of people would not be very subtle now would it.

Jesus was talking to the Jews and saying that they would only receive the sign of Jonah. The sign of Jonah was Jesus in rising from the dead on the third day.

However, the Gentiles will receive the following sign prior to his coming at the rapture.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Yeah, and it's at the end of the tribulation when Christ returns:

10Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12"But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13This will result in your being witnesses to them. 14But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish. 19By standing firm you will gain life.

20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Luke 21:25 in context

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
However, the Gentiles will receive the following sign prior to his coming at the rapture.

You conveniently forgot this one:

quote: John 17:15 (JESUS praying to The Father) "I pray NOT that thou shouldest TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou should keep them from evil."

There will be no wisping away of anyone during the tribulation.

For those without compassion for others in their heart (in that they desire good relations between God and ALL men) -

there is another sign of Jonah:

The withered vine.

Speaker, Byrd, Queenie, Flyer, Marg (challenged):

Speaker >> Terral, since you are so keen on quoting scripture. I suggest that you and others who are looking for a miraculous sign or rapture to keep these words in mind. Matthew 16:2-4

Save it. You and Byrd, Queenie, Flyer and Marg owe the readers of this thread ‘your’ interpretations on the verses I provided above. I am waiting and the readers here are waiting. You “NO RAPTURE” whiners can belly up to the bar and tell us exactly what Paul ‘is’ teaching in 1Cor. 15:51-55 AND 1 Thes. 4:13-17 in your ‘own words.’ You guys want to sit there and pretend Paul’s teaching on THE RAPTURE (1Thes. 4:17 = Harpazo #726) “. . . Was Not Even Considered Until 1830.” What NONSENSE.

These people believe they can come out here and point fingers and shout “Terral, Terral, Terral” and their duty to this Topic is over! More NONSENSE. The whole lot of them reminds me of a bunch of scared chickens when the fox is near the hen house. Baaawk, Baaaawk! Why are they so afraid to give us ‘their’ interpretations on these key verses? Baaawk, Baaaawk!! I thought so. One last time:

“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 1Corinthians 15:51-55.

“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God [1Cor. 15:52] , and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to MEET THE LORD in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Here is where the rubber meets the road in this debate right here. The advocates of Speaker’s Thesis claim that Paul’s “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) and the ‘correct’ interpretation (which LaHaye leans towards being ‘before’ Christ’s second coming) “was not even considered until 1830.” What POPYCOCK. Everyone sitting as a judge in this debate deserves to know how SpeakerOfTruth, Byrd, Queenie, Flyer and Marg are interpreting Paul’s words quoted again for them right here. What does “we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds” mean to THEM??? How many different ways are there to interpret these words, for all the pre-1830 Christian churches to GET THIS WRONG??

If they continue to cast stones at me as their ADVERSARY in this debate, while refusing to even offer their own interpretations of these things, then they may as well fold up the old tent and go home! All of them! They can Baawwk, Baaawwk, Baaaawwwk all the way home and accept bitter defeat in this debate. This side of the discussion is about sick and tired of their foolishness and ridiculous assertions, when none of them have enough spiritual stature or conviction to even sit down and write two solid paragraphs of commentary on whatever they think Paul ‘is’ teaching in the above passages. These are the long necked versions of chickens with their heads buried a mile deep in the sand!

If any of these so called “scholars” (Heh) quote me verses from Genesis to Revelation and offer similar challenges, I would sit and write them a letter they could in no way refute. But then again, I am not the one yelling “NO RAPTURE!” in this debate. Baaawk, Baaaawwk, We are still waiting . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

[edit on 11-10-2006 by Terral]

Originally posted by Terral
Speaker, Byrd, Queenie, Flyer, Marg (challenged):

Speaker >> Terral, since you are so keen on quoting scripture. I suggest that you and others who are looking for a miraculous sign or rapture to keep these words in mind. Matthew 16:2-4

Save it. You and Byrd, Queenie, Flyer and Marg owe the readers of this thread ‘your’ interpretations on the verses I provided above. I am waiting and the readers here are waiting. You “NO RAPTURE” whiners can belly up to the bar and tell us exactly what Paul ‘is’ teaching in 1Cor. 15:51-55 AND 1 Thes. 4:13-17 in your ‘own words.’ You guys want to sit there and pretend Paul’s teaching on THE RAPTURE (1Thes. 4:17 = Harpazo #726) “. . . Was Not Even Considered Until 1830.” What NONSENSE.


[edit on 11-10-2006 by Terral]

See,you don't even have the decency to reply. You know I am right. Your reactions speak volumes,fella. God Bless and Good luck


Oh, and by the way,

John 17:15 (JESUS praying to The Father) "I pray NOT that thou shouldest TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou should keep them from evil."

Like I said, when you live by the sword,you will also die by it.

[edit on 11-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Mr. Terral for such a man of divine vision you can be very visious perhaps you true colors are shining.

Why the church system is full with earthly minded Christians that will rather sit back and wait for a future full with a rapture?

While many evangelicals teach that at any moment Jesus will secretly snatch away his selected born again Christian to haven.

So they can escape the great tribulation.

It seems that Paul’s “says” and influences have taken away from the true Gospels of Jesus itself.

Rapture is not a biblical word. Like many say before me is not even in the scripture and has been misused to mislead people and faithful followers.

Nowhere in the bible you can find anything saying that Jesus is coming for the saints a phrase use by the same preachers of the Rapture theories.

Jesus is no coming for any church either because that was also taken out of content.

People need to look upon themselves and figure out what the true meaning of A second coming means and perhaps is not a physical one but one that will come from within ones hart that will bring hope to the ones that will be in this world when times will turn troublesome due to the makings of man, not of divine means.

Perhaps that hope will be the only means for our human race to survive.

People do not need prophets, seers and neither preachers to tell them to look inside and see for themselves what the meaning of things may be.

Everybody is capable to ask questions and to find answers, look within your hart for the truth..

Our creator is inside each of us and part of us just like we are all part of him.

Deny Ignorance and embrace hope and light.

These people believe they can come out here and point fingers and shout “Terral, Terral, Terral” and their duty to this Topic is over! More NONSENSE. The whole lot of them reminds me of a bunch of scared chickens when the fox is near the hen house. Baaawk, Baaaawk! Why are they so afraid to give us ‘their’ interpretations on these key verses? Baaawk, Baaaawk!! I thought so.

"Scared Chickens"? How can you say that when you believe in some escapist philosophy that has no true root in anything biblical? By the way,I gave you my interpretation and you didn't even respond.

[edit on 11-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

What does “we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds”

Once again, Terral, I will try and give you my view on the whole "rapture" ideology.

I explained in a previous post that you totally ignored that I see the whole "rapture" as being divine protection from God. When God's true people go out into the wilderness to survive, they will be removed or "raptured" from the whims of the existing society. It has nothing to do with being "wisped away" like a paper towel floating in the air.

Paul's quote is a reference to the fact that they would have been just as well to be "lifted into the clouds". The believers will be under God's divine protection and guidance. When they are hungry, they will have food.When they thirst, they will have drink.

I have no need for this idea o some mysterious "wisping away," in order to know that God's true people are going to be okay during the coming troubles. What you are postulating,Terrel, is nothing more than an escapist mentality derived out of fear. That is why I asked what right you had to call anyone "Scared Chickens". When in fact, you are the one in fear. People who believe in this sudden "wisping away" do not want to face what is about to take place on earth.

Alas, they,just like every other human being elected to live on this earth at this point in history, will have to face the coming tests.

My view on this subject is very much centered around this scripture that I have used several times and I will use again:

John 17:15 (JESUS praying to The Father) "I pray NOT that thou shouldest TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou should keep them from evil."

God will keep his people from evil, but that does not imply that they won't have to endure it.
[edit on 11-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 11-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

A lot of things have been descovered in the Bible since the 1800s and still are does not mean its wrong.

For example the numeric calculations
Look at E.W. Bullinger works.
www.janetboyer.com...
www.wordworx.co.nz...
www.mt.net...
www.pilkingtonandsons.com...
about him more above.

But you can ANYTHING UP, THE THING IS NEW THINGS ARE BEING DISCOVERED SPIRITUALLY AND HISTORICALLY in the bible so saying the rapture was not noticed or something was not noticed does not mean its not there.
(caps were left on by mistake)

But that is the thing education and prophecy fulling will awaken us to understand the Bible a bit more. Remember in Revelation 12 to 13 every man will witness world events. How is that possible in the 1800s? It is now with TVs Revelations got that right so far. The revival of Christianity and science and Historical evidence has takled the Bible and in doing so bringing out the hidden elements withing it, things we we never have understood, untill certain times in History.

Rapture theory may have some flaws, (pre-mid) but does not mean its wrong. But like all things should be questioned and nothing wrong when things are discovered.
The Bible did say there are as many stars as the sands on the beach, but science just found that out this recently to confirm.

So its not all bad to say in 2006 they discover something Biblically, maybe man kind has been blind to ceratin things till God opens us up or events in Prophecy start making sense. They started the mark of the beast concept already, but time will tell of its direction it will take.

Time Lord, you are quite correct in a number of the remarks you made. We,as human beings, certainly do not see the full picture. Only God does.

I remember reading somewhere I forgot now where in the Bible that when the plagues come God's people will be pretected anyway in some form or way.< no not the two witnesses.

Originally posted by Terral
You and Byrd, Queenie, Flyer and Marg owe the readers of this thread ‘your’ interpretations on the verses I provided above. I am waiting and the readers here are waiting.

Actually Terral ... the 'readers' all agree that you are wrong. You are the only one saying that you are right.

And we ALREADY provided proof postitive that the rapture is nothing more than a myth. You didn't read what we linked you to. It's all here -
www.belowtopsecret.com...

Every ... last ... stinking .... verse ....

I want to put an avatar on please vote for me, my last one I paid points for I lost due to too much memory use it was a Gif.

So if you are feeling charitable along the side of the left is a WAY ABOVE vote.
I would mind some more points.

I quite like your Jesus one, I have an optical illusion one that stays in your eye after you close them of Jesus, I may add that one.

[edit on 11-10-2006 by The time lord]

Originally posted by Terral
your Christian attitude and behavior working overtime.

MY attitude doesn't matter. It is YOUR unchristian attitude that does. I'm not here trying to sell a lemon to people claiming it's a diamond.

Get real dude and stop being a "Scoffer

Thousand and one times - I'M A GIRL. Oh .. and I'm not a scoffer .. I'm a soul that can decern that you are a false prophet. There is a difference.

The very best way to characterize your terrible behavior is that of the ATS village idiot.

Yeah ... right BTW .. calling ATS members 'village idiot' is against the rules. You deserve a warning for that.

What a joke.

Another warning deserved ...

Originally posted by The time lord
I want to put an avatar on please vote for me, my last one I paid points for I lost due to too much memory use it was a Gif.

So if you are feeling charitable along the side of the left is a WAY ABOVE vote.
I would mind some more points.

I quite like your Jesus one, I have an optical illusion one that stays in your eye after you close them of Jesus, I may add that one.

[edit on 11-10-2006 by The time lord]

You can get avatars for free.

I know you can get free pictures but you still need points to add them. You don't have to would be nice to speed the points process)

Thanks just updated thanks for the vote.

[edit on 11-10-2006 by The time lord]

Originally posted by The time lord
I know you can get free pictures but you still need points to add them

. You don't have to would be nice to speed the points process)

well,I gave you a vote. All you have to do is log out and then log back in and your points will be added to your existing ones.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth


You conveniently forgot this one:

quote: John 17:15 (JESUS praying to The Father) "I pray NOT that thou shouldest TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou should keep them from evil."

No, we can discuss this verse if you like. Keep things is context. Jesus is talking about his diciples and those that believe on Him before his death as the time was near. It appears that Jesus is aware of a rapture that will take people out of the world. He is not asking the father to take them as who would be there to spread the message when Jesus was gone. The diciples have to stay.

There will be no wisping away of anyone during the tribulation.

What can you do with this then?

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.