What if America lost

Having read many of the post's regarding the invasion of Iran and possibly other countries on the list, and coupled with the general view of the we are up for it attitude I wondered had anybody thought of what would happen if America lost with regard to these actions. Let me clarify, I dont just mean America I include the UK and other participants, I'm asking Americans because they are the biggest contributor to these actions.

Is such a scenario possible, many seem keen to paint a winning one is there anybody out there willing to paint a loosing one and if so what would be the impact on the US/UK. Have we lost in Iraq/Afganistan already, would invading Iran be the straw that broke the camels back. Would all three turn out to be Vietnam type scenarios/outcomes.

I honestly cannot fathom such a scenario.... not because I dont beleive it cuold happen, I believe it could.. and if we are stupid enough to become MORE invovled.. it more than likely would..

but the ramifications that would result would be global disrupting..
I cant imagine life in the USA after something of such magnitude happens...

Economic concpets would nose dive..
The Depression, bottled with lack of fuel, food, heating and so forth.
Looting in the streets....

Being a none American what effect did Vietnam have on the people, goverment etc. I dont want to open up old wounds but to me losing is just as important as winning and as you have said you could not even imagine it which I genuinley believe, but sometimes we have to think the unthinkable.

It's empire or bust

Since America is pretty much keeping this whole market capitalism and consumer game together, our loss would evoke an economic depression which will likely expand into a global war.

We are at the proverbial rock and a hard place with record deficits, negative savings rates and outsourced manufacturing. The biggest factor that enables us to keep borrowing and the dollar to maintain its value is by having the largest and most advanced military in the world, if we are no longer seen as having that....we're toast.


Banking On Armageddon: Truth Is Unprofitable

U.S. drops to 6th in world competitiveness ranking






[edit on 26-9-2006 by Regenmacher]

- by any reasonable assessment.

Check out:

The US National Debt;

Changes in standard of living in the USA;

Healthcare in the USA, and the number of Americans living without medical insurance;

Homelessness in the USA;

The loss of Constitutional Rights.



There's more, but I just can't go on....

Being a none American what effect did Vietnam have on the people, goverment etc. I dont want to open up old wounds but to me losing is just as important as winning and as you have said you could not even imagine it which I genuinley believe, but sometimes we have to think the unthinkable.

Take this from the point of a 'Nam Vet -- 2 hitches. 'Nam had a profound effect on the US Government, the economy, the populus, and the very structure of the Military, itself, and the effect was extremely negative.

Unlike the World Wars, where the economy of this country boomed--at the expense of the European Economy, "brush fire", or, "Limited" Wars like 'Nam, Bosnia, etc, and Iraq have the opposite effect. With 'Nam and Iraq, only a very few get rich--like Haliburton, RMK, Danials, etc. These types of Wars are fought for an entirely different reason than that of a large armed force of one or 2 allied countries trying to take over the world. Neither North Vietnam nor Al-Qaeda represent the same type of threat as did Hitler. In other words, your supposition is one of comparing Apples and Oranges.

There are still lots of people in the US who assume, and wrongfully, that those of us who participated in the Vietnam War "lost"--that the US "lost the War". That, in fact, is not the case at all. We actually accomplished our missions in Vietnam, which just happens to also be our real mission in Iraq. When I speak of this ist is from the point of view of the Soldier on the ground--those of us who did the work--and not the planning authorities. The later, in the case of 'Nam, kept changing the mission statement and adding to it. The basics never did change. We were in Nam to insure that the Vietnamese People had a Choice as to how they wanted to live, and the ability to openly express that choice. This required the supression of the Forces who would deny the People that Right--and that was our job. Understand, though they did NOT choose as we would have liked, we insured their Right to choose, and they chose. The outcome of being taken over by the North was the consequence of that Choice.

This same principal holds true in Iraq. We have given the Iraqis the Right to choose, and they have chosen is Democracy and Freedom. In my book, that accomplishes our Mission in Iraq. What ensues from their Free Choice is now totally up to them--really--and we need to let the Iraqi Government and the Iraqi Citizens handle their own affairs from this point--win and keep Freedom --or loose it. It is no longer up to Us, and it is time for us to phase ourselves out of the process.

The bottom line regards any war is to understand why you are fighting and what it ultimately is that you are fighting for. Are you fighting to defeat an enemy, or to give a bonded people a choice? For defeating an Enemy, you pull all the stops and take it to the max. To give a People a Choice, you supress the inhibiting factions long enough fo those People to act. When they have, and established by their own acts a New Way for themselves--your Job is done and it is time to go home.

No, I don't think the US or any other Free World Power will ever loose a conventional War fought under the terms and for the reasons of, say, WW 2. Other types of War?
Winning or loosing cannot be determined by the standards of a world War. you have to use other ones, and those based on the Mission.

Originally posted by Ed Littlefox

There are still lots of people in the US who assume, and wrongfully, that those of us who participated in the Vietnam War "lost"--that the US "lost the War". That, in fact, is not the case at all. We actually accomplished our missions in Vietnam, which just happens to also be our real mission in Iraq.

...We were in Nam to insure that the Vietnamese People had a Choice as to how they wanted to live, and the ability to openly express that choice. This required the supression of the Forces who would deny the People that Right--and that was our job.

Interesting analysis.

One question:

Do you see a similar role for the USA in any other countries, like Venezuela for example?

I don't quite understand some of the poster's attitude here that America can't be beat. Look at us now. We cannot even fight a two front war without struggling. How in the hell are we going to fight Iran,North Korea,Iraq and Afghanistan? I am beginning to think that America's military "supremacy" is a lie,perhaps it always has been.

However,if America were to lose, I am not sure how it would affect the rest of the world. Probably not positively.

[edit on 26-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Let me be clear on this issue, I have no axe to grind, I'm not anti American or anti anything I'm just trying to see the other side of the story. There is much talk on this site of America wuping Iran, Syria, North Korea etc. so it begs the question can America pull it off and what would happen if you overstreched yourselves. I'm not suggesting for one minute that America would fall in such a situation, the Uk did not fall with the disntergration of the British Empire it rather took a back seat for a bit in world affairs.

But my question really is how would it affect the American pyshci, when your being told your the best in the world all the time what happens when you hit the bottom.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Let me be clear on this issue, I have no axe to grind, I'm not anti American or anti anything I'm just trying to see the other side of the story. There is much talk on this site of America wuping Iran, Syria, North Korea etc. so it begs the question can America pull it off and what would happen if you overstreched yourselves. I'm not suggesting for one minute that America would fall in such a situation, the Uk did not fall with the disntergration of the British Empire it rather took a back seat for a bit in world affairs.

But my question really is how would it affect the American pyshci, when your being told your the best in the world all the time what happens when you hit the bottom.

America has already over extended itself. One of the things Bush hinged his presidency on in 2000 was bringing the troops back home. He repeatedly spoke about how over extended America was. Hell, we are more extended now than we have ever been.

Originally posted by soficrow

Interesting analysis.

One question:

Do you see a similar role for the USA in any other countries, like Venezuela for example?

Hi, SofiCrow--

No, I don't. For personal reasons, I utterly hate War. I should think, in these enlightened times, that we can find a better way to solve problems. Going to War should always be a last op, last resort, and never ever a first op like it is with Iraq. This Always creates inextricible quagmires, and because, as History dictates, no army of occupation has ever successfully prosecuted a War against a guirilla force. "Guirllia" is another name for Terrorist.

Hopefully, the US will be a force for Peace in the future, and opt for Policy Changes and Diplomacety over War for solutions. We will have to change our tactics, yes, and well we need to, as our People have gained a reputation in the rest of the World that we, as a People, do not deserve. Hopefully, those who are and would be our Enemies will understand that it isn't Us, but powers out of our direct control that are causing the problems. We are willing to see that change, but it must be on non-hostile terms with open hands. If we can ever achieve a World Raport for the Common Man-- and one outside Government controls and censors--I think we can make Peace.

We'll never know 'till we try----

The USA is holding back, and that's why we are losing. You see, in WWII for the most part, we were allowed to actually kill the germans, including the citizens. If they didn't surrender we would have totaly killed off all of the german peoples to stop the war if need be.

Now, however, we are trying to spread freedom....and we can't kill those people, it's not a real war even. We are doing what the citizens SHOULD be doing themselves, and thats starting a countrywide revolution against whatever backward dictator they seem to be living under. We are only there because we don't want our oil flow interupted because they are too stupid to have a stable country and economy....I mean think about it, we are paying them for oil. If China, Russia, The EU, and the USA really wanted to, we could kill them all within a year, divide the oil and go about our daily buisness. People have hang-up about genocide though.

Ok, I've posted this in another forum thread, but I'll type it again.

"The USA has not yet begun to fight, not even close to utilizing the full capacity".

Sadly enough, but that is the truth. Even Clinton said he would use 20,000 men, and he chopped the entire defense budget in half during his term!

The Armed Forces of the US of A are far from being strained, compare the numbers, they speak for themselves.

We are all entitled to our unique opinions, I support and encourage such. However the information on the US Armed Forces being pushed to their limits is assinine, as is the fact our troops have had to repeat tours of duty. When there are, others who have not done so, even though they requested assignment over seas, as a duty station of choice.

From my perspective, I think those who wanted to and still want to serve over seas, have been kept from doing so, and those who did not and don't are being forced to.

The Armed Forces of the US of A are far from being strained, compare the numbers, they speak for themselves.

That is the total truth. We are basicly holding back....we could outright demolish them if we really wanted to.

Can I be polite and remind members that this debate is about what if America lost in a military conflict and how it would affect the American people. War is a gamble. a highly risky one where the outcome is never certain. History has shown us that great nations/empires come and go and America is not immune from this process.

To those who say America is holding back from all out war and wiping out Iraq thast may be true to a point but to go down such a path would mean all out war with many countries, nobody will sit back and allow America to exterminate the whole Iraqi population or any other, and nobody should. If you want to be seen as a liberator and a fighter of tyranny you dont do it by wiping out whole countries and its populations. But what if these countries hit back and hit back hard, so hard that you actually lose and have to withdraw from the theatre of battle what then.

Thats what this debate is about, try to conceive such a situation and then imagine how it would affect you as an American, would it make any real difference at all, what does it mean to the individual to think you were on the top of the pile but now your not, would Americans just carry on with their lives as if nothing had happened, I dont know so have a go and tell me what you think.

There are no winners in wars; only losers. Both sides in any conflict suffer losses. The question is not who won the most but who lost the least.
There are no Winners in War

Some more quotes that can be read or ignored, but they are the best ones in my opinion, about war.
Quotes on war...

Just had to say/type that, this topic is understood, but hey instead of argueing against your discussion, figured it was best to just throw that out there.

Not much of a better way to put it, every body loses.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
would Americans just carry on with their lives as if nothing had happened, I dont know so have a go and tell me what you think.

As a matter of fact, yes, many have and did just that. Sure they put up flags for a few weeks, but they vanished as they were taken down. It is just all a shame...


I assure you though, there are those who have not done so, and those lives are changed forever and it will never go back to just carrying on, as if nothing happened.

Those that do go on as if nothing happened, I remind them of this;

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsel or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

- Samuel Adams, debates of 1776

See bottom of page

[edit on 27-9-2006 by ADVISOR]

"would it make any real difference at all"

Probably if it was on american soil, then it would affect the population as a whole. But wars in other parts of the globe don't really seem relevant if we win or lose....because we don't live there.If we lost within our borders it would affect us.

Quite right Advisor, after all the suffering and death what if anything has been gained by fighting wars. Maybe all we need to prevent them is to take out the plotters of these acts beacuse if you take out religion, politics and the lying media the majority of people on this planet want to live in peace with each other. America and the UK are truly multi cultural societies and its only the social inadequacies between those groups that needs sorting out.

I personaly believe that America one day will lose in war and will lose its current status but it will not fade into the mist. It will still be a strong and powerful nation in its own right but may in the passing of such events gain humility and acceptance of others who wish to live their own way of life. We Brits went through the process and we are doing OK.

Originally posted by magicmushroom

I personaly believe that America one day will lose in war and will lose its current status but it will not fade into the mist. It will still be a strong and powerful nation in its own right but may in the passing of such events gain humility and acceptance of others who wish to live their own way of life. We Brits went through the process and we are doing OK.

MagicMushroom--

I tend to agree with you. Currently, and beyond the obvious (Iraq/Aphghanistan), we are involved in such a War; an Economic one. The major competitor is China, seconded by Japan and Asia. I do believe that we are definately loosing that one, and it becomes apparant to any who are seeking a mid-level job these days--or phones AOL technical support--(provided such a person is technically challenged enough to have AOL )

There are many ways to fight a War--and many ways to loose one.

Originally posted by LordBaskettIV
That is the total truth. We are basicly holding back....we could outright demolish them if we really wanted to.

Why is it that everytime we fall into a quagmire "we are holding back"? Could it not be that American citizens and the world have been lied to and America is not as militarily powerful as everyone thinks? I mean, this crap of, "Oh, we are just holding back," is getting old.

We have lost nearly 3,000 troops since this conflict began,not couting Afghanistan, and to be honest, it doesn't look like we are gaining any headroom at all. So, if we are so mighty, why not show it to the world once and for all? You see,that's the conuundrum, we are not as mighty as we have deceived the world and ourselves to believe we are.

[edit on 28-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]