Originally posted by echelon

in socialism there's a limited freemarket, unlike communism where the gov't is in control of all means of production and distribution of goods and services.
So it is possible for an individual to become rich under socialism... as long as the economy agrees with them

All these peoples who were waiting in front of the chops and super-markets ( if we can call them super-markets ! ) in Moscow and everywhere in all communists nations, what they were doing there then ?

All the chops and communists " super-markets " were EMPTY !!! No food, no cloths, no wealth, NOTHING !!!

Your so-called amnesia is a shame !!!

Do you remember all these peoples, how they were happy, how they were crying when the Shame-Wall felt ?

Do you remember these East-Germans who tryed to come to the West with a train, when Hungaria told them that they were free to go West by Austria ?

Your avatar & your statements are an insult to them. An insult to those who had to die & suffer ( and still right now ) with the communism.

You are not a real democrat.

stalin wanted east germany to pay for wwii... so in the eyes of the soviet union, it wasn't necessary for them to treat them any better.

Originally posted by echelon
stalin wanted east germany to pay for wwii... so in the eyes of the soviet union, it wasn't necessary for them to treat them any better.

Unbelievable !

The day where the last commie will die will be a great day for all the mankind.

i didn't say i agreed with it...

Originally posted by echelon
i didn't say i agreed with it...

You don't have to say it, I know that's what you think.

well i don't.... even though it may be hard to believe...

Originally posted by echelon
well i don't.... even though it may be hard to believe...

Hard ? What is hard ?

Originally posted by Kronos
That something what was in Eastern Europe installed and later dismounted as extremely expensive, ineffective was nothing about communism or socialism as political systems.

expensive? ineffective? the russians, before the october (november in the russian caledar) revolution of 1917, had nothing to lose...
they were all dependant on agriculture... from there, they turned into a world super-power within months.
though they only lasted until they lost grip of what it meant to be communist.

this is also taking place in cuba today...
the newer generation have not gone through what their parents or grand parents have gone through to liberate themselves from the clutches of capitalism...
the only thing they see now is that they are not able to do the same as the people in america are free to do...
when in actuality... it's just the freedom to do 'wrong' (you are free to argue with me on this statement, but you cannot make me to believe anything else)

Originally posted by echelon
in socialism there's a limited freemarket, unlike communism where the gov't is in control of all means of production and distribution of goods and services.

...

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
All these peoples who were waiting in front of the chops and super-markets ( if we can call them super-markets ! )

i think you got the wrong idea of the type of market i'm talking about.

Originally posted by echelon

1) we have a common goal...

2) so why can't we just get along?

1) we don't have the same goal(s).

2) I don't see a difference between the olds communists and the new ones.Same finality. Communism & socialism have to be crushed !

when you say the 'new' communists...
do you refer to the communists that are in china & north korea...
or the ones that just believe in the theory?

Originally posted by echelon
when you say the 'new' communists...
do you refer to the communists that are in china & north korea...
or the ones that just believe in the theory?

ALL OF THEM. I put them all in the same bag, and I drop the bag in the ocean.

Curious, people always seem to attack anyone who even mentions communism with a religious fervor. So much greater so than the dismissiveness one would expect if they truly viewed it as a flawed political model.

Personally I believe because man seems to be typically competitive in nature, fierce competition, ie capitalism would suggest itself as the most likely successful model for society, naturally tempered by democracy and the rule of law. Perhaps it is a dispute here between how much the rule of law and government should intervene in society. Its interesting that the more civilised a society gets, with caring for the unemployed, injured, aged and others unable to make their own income, the closer it drifts away from pure capitalism.

Many interesting aspects to think about, it just seems surprising people take it upon themselves to immediately attack the very mention of communism, without dealing with the topic.

Originally posted by Kano


.....to immediately attack the very mention of communism, without dealing with the topic.

We know what's happened all around the world with the communism. Death, starvation, torture, recession, no freedom and so on.... Communism, unlike nazism, must be banned.

I don't understand why some peoples still feel attracted by these both ideology.

We can debate of course, but doing an apology, NO !

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
Death, starvation, torture, recession, no freedom and so on....

when the communist nations reached that point, do you think they were actually practicing communism?

look at china...
when they were strictly communist... didn't they have an improving economy, and didn't the people have the basic necessities of living?

and once they started applying capitalistic ideals they lost grip of every means of stability... but they still continue to claim that they are communists. isn't it possible that the same event took place in the ussr?

and how does the west look at this?
"in order to corrupt a communist, you must introduce them to capitalism"

Originally posted by echelon

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
Death, starvation, torture, recession, no freedom and so on....

1) when the communist nations reached that point, do you think they were actually practicing communism?

2) look at china...
when they were strictly communist... didn't they have an improving economy, and didn't the people have the basic necessities of living?

3) and once they started applying capitalistic ideals they lost grip of every means of stability... but they still continue to claim that they are communists. isn't it possible that the same event took place in the ussr?

4) and how does the west look at this?
"in order to corrupt a communist, you must introduce them to capitalism"

1) Yeah, sure. It's their final goal. A dictatorship is using allways torture and starvation like controls tools.

2) Are u kidding or are you serious ? How do you believe this ? In North-Korea, peoples are living like the chineses were living 30/40 years ago.If you want, you can ask them for political asylum.You'll have a brighfull and wonderfull live.

3) See with Gorbi.

4) Hey, we didn't force them.Anyway, when capitalism and communism are mixed, you have nazism. The West is NOT responsible. Chinese Gov's ARE responsibles !

Communist system is pure and simple a system of dictatorship.

It is evil, it is wrong, and it is pathetic.

communist hate God.

i remember reading about the old days when communist russians would
seize catholics and kill them for praying the rosary.

they would beat them, torture them, and mutilate them for being catholic in russia.

They are dictators, evil hatefull to god system of living.

One communist bella dodd said she put 3000 men into the priesthood in the 1930s just
to make use of the church by infiltration.

yea that true respect for human rights isnt it??

luckly she denounced communism and converted because she realized it is evil.

There whole goal is to demolish god and creat a dictatorship system of government.

which i call satanic values, or plain evil.

ultra, don't worry. You will witness true freedom one day, and there will come a time when all
evil is demolished from earth.

For it will be in the pits of hell with satan for eternity.

peace.

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
Anyway, when capitalism and communism are mixed, you have nazism.

so you're admitting that when communism is integrated with other systems... it's no longer communism.
anyway... your communism + capitalism = nazism is a bad theory.
nazism utilizes socialism as well... which means it's also an antithesis of capitalism.
why do you think they hated jews?
it wasn't because they were jews... to the nazis, the jews were the capitalists, who lived in the richest part of town, or ran all the idustries... while the common germans had no means of living.

Originally posted by Truth
communist hate God.

that's a new one...
did you know that one of the organizers of the protests at the world economic forums is a reverend, who works beside socialists & communists?
(and no... it's not just another conspiracy or propaganda to desecrate Christ's church internally)