Christ never espoused Communism, as a matter of fact, Communism goes against Biblical teaching. Everyone can't have the same rights as everyone isn't even aware of their God-given rights to the same level. Everyone cannot have the same property as everyone will not work to the same level of sweat. God says that a man that won't work won't eat. Not that if he won't work those who do work should feed him.
But I do undertsand your point is made out of kindness and compassion and that I do respect.

Communism in theory cannot work and has never lasted very long at all. What U-P refers to as Communism wasn't Communism at all, but totalitarian rule using Communistic concepts to dissiminate minimal necessities to the people while the leaders ate very well. Even in the beginning, where some here have said it was a great and ideological revolution, it was bloody and murderous. Any idea that demands the killing of its citizenry to ensure its survival is not going to last long nor should it.

Did you know that long before Lenin Communism was tried on another continent? Guess where. Yup, in North America. The very first year on the New Continent, the settlers tried to live as a comune. They nearly starved that winter as human nature is not designed to toil without personal profit or incentive, and true to human nature, each person expected the other to pull the majority of the weight. I found that little tid-bit of info quite interesting!

Thomas Crowne

well Jesus was the first communist alive.
his idea was for every one to have the same rights. also in the beggining that IDEA AND THE MEANING it's not eveilish at all. the people as human beings make it that way. and the bible is for the communist IDEA not about what we know communism to be right now.

thanks 4 sharing ur idea i respect it

Originally posted by bluegrl89
It's the people it's self that make it an evil posseion cuz as human beings we have the need for power. Communist means for every one to have the same rights and property.

you've certainly raised an interesting topic...
perfect examples of this are the Quakers, Shakers, & Amish...
The reason why there aren't many groups like this isn't because of the system... it's because of the people.
In time individuals become curious of the outside environment.
So sooner or later... they give into the basic human pleasures provided by the capitalists...
so it's not the system that's at fault... it's baiscally the individual.


[Edited on 13-11-2002 by echelon]

"They nearly starved that winter as human nature is not designed to toil without personal profit or incentive, and true to human nature, each person expected the other to pull the majority of the weight. I found that little tid-bit of info quite interesting! "

First of all, the idea that human nature should toil without incentive or profit has absolutely nothing to do with communism.
In fact Communism RELEYS on human natures need for incentive and profit however it redefines our understanding of the terms.

It suggests that freedom from the oppression of capitalism is an incentive as is helping ones fellow man. As for profit it concludes (quite acurately) that financial reward has no intrinsic value, only the experiences that money currently affords us are of value.

In a communist society profit is therefor concerned with experience, not abstract coinage.

based on the simplest and best deffinition Communism simply asks

"from each according to ability, to each according to nead"

where profit = personal experience and incentive = more time, freedom and ability to enjoy those experiences.

People point at communism like its some massive historical faliure.

thats complete bollox.

Its like saying that the feudal system didn't work because its been usurped in the last few hundred years by capitalism, even though it continued quite successfully for far longer.

or take the nomadic or tribal systems, successful for thousands of years and still successful.

Just because the west has adopted capitalist methods at present doesn't mean it is sustainable, in fact much suggests that it is slowly disintegrating under its own restrictive nature.

Communism (like capitalism or any other system) has gone through some bad patches, and got a lot of people killed, but to dismiss an entire ethos based on such a small time frame and such a small selection of civilisations is simply ignorant

I should point out that Phoenix has had a closer brush with the effects of Communism than most of the rest of us have.

I remember Communism. I saw its effects -- directly -- on East Germany and East Berlin during the Cold War. Not pretty... not pretty at all. If I'd been into conspiracies then, I'd have fingered it for the NWO. Brrr!

Like all social system we should remember that their is a difference between the philosophy and how it has manifested itself in society.

Communism is not inherently "wrong" or "evil" Its one of the more alturistic, humanitarian and compassionate systems (philosophicaly)

Similarly theres nothing particularly wrong with respecting seperate cultures right to live independantly from each other so their individuality can be preserved, however we all know what the Nazis and apartheid did with that one.

bluegrl89, I forgot to check this topic and see your post just right now. I've nothing to write, Thomas wrote it for me.

For the others posters, I can say that Byrd has perfectly right !!!

I was in Germany in the eighties and I had the opportunity to visit Berlin. When I saw East-Berlin, I was sure that I did the best choice. Communism and socialism, in all of their forms, are a way to enslave us.

Behind the great & nices words ( Humanism, " from each according to ability, to each according to nead " [ thx Lupe ] , everybody is equal and all these kinds of stupids BS, an hideous ideology is hidding.

Equality between humans is an utopy. It's a brightfull idea of course, but it's only and it will stay an utopy for a simple reason. WE ARE NOT EQUALS !!! WE ARE DIFFERENTS !!! You cannot equalizing things or peoples who are differents from each others !!! That's why communism and socialism never worked and will never work. NEVER !!!

And look what's happened in all the nations who had to " live " ( suffer ) a communist regime. Common peoples had/have nothing and the nomenklatura had/have everything ! Yeah, really a fair system.

- I was a perfect anti-communist/socialist.

- I'm still one.

- I'll stay one.

- I fought against them.

- I'm still fighting against them ( but now without weapons )

- I'll fight allways against them, for EVER !!!

Many peoples gave their lives for you. With their sacrifices, you can do a simple thing like a post on ATS.Do you believe that without their sacrifice you would have this possibility ? Nope !!! Cuz you would have to live under a dictature.

16 years ago, some of my friends gave me this nickname : Reds Killer. I'm still proud of it.

You don't know, or don't want to know, what does it mean " communism" and " socialism ". You're just able to read some books and writers ( like Marx ) who have " wonderfulls " ideas on how to rule a fair world. But in the real live, these so-called wonderfull ideas are just what they are :hideous and horrible !

If the communism and socialism were so bright, I would like to know why many peoples left these communist country and went to the west ! Why many of them gave their live, while they were trying to go to the West !

Do a good action. KILL A RED !!!

Originally posted by echelon
perfect examples of this are the Quakers, Shakers, & Amish...
The reason why there aren't many groups like this isn't because of the system... it's because of the people.
In time individuals become curious of the outside environment.
So sooner or later... they give into the basic human pleasures provided by the capitalists...
so it's not the system that's at fault... it's baiscally the individual.

when it's on a larger scale... such as an entire nation...
keeping order becomes a difficult task... so the the gov't has to adopt and enforce new policies...
any single uprising could've triggered a chain of more uprisings... leaving the nation's well-being at risk... so it was important for them to stop any oppositions.
even though the methods weren't justifiable.

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
we putted the USSR on his knees

who put the ussr on its knees? they did it to themselves.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Did you know that long before Lenin Communism was tried on another continent? Guess where. Yup, in North America. The very first year on the New Continent, the settlers tried to live as a comune. They nearly starved that winter as human nature is not designed to toil without personal profit or incentive, and true to human nature, each person expected the other to pull the majority of the weight. I found that little tid-bit of info quite interesting!

you think the pilgrims would've been better off with 'capitalism'? what other option did they have? they had nothing to begin with, nor were they prepared for any of the things they went through.
ultra_phoenix...
do you really believe that the outcome of the soviet union was what marx had in mind?

on a side note...
afghanistan was supposed to fall to communism under a contract...
the soviets had already created universities and medical facilities for them... which are still being used, by the way...
because no one else came along to help them... no capitalist, to be more specific.
so when the good old US of A finally became aware of this, they interfered with the soviets, ruining everything...
we could've possibly avoided the problems we're having today if the capitalists had learned to stick their noses elsewhere.

and what about the iran-contras scandal?
where the u.s. took down revolutionaries (sandinistas) in nicaragua by using the cia to train counter-revolutionaries on the side of the dictator (somoza), even though it was prohibited by the boland amendment...
and to make it even worse... they obtained the money to do all this by selling arms to iranian rebels that took americans as hostages.
all thanks to reagan.



people before profits

[Edited on 13-11-2002 by echelon]

every empire and every reign falls to it's feet sooner or later
and in most cases by it's own people
or by the governmentís mistakes
just think about that

Originally posted by echelon

where the u.s. took down revolutionaries (sandinistas) in nicaragua by using the cia to train counter-revolutionaries on the side of the dictator (somoza), even though it was prohibited by the boland amendment...
and to make it even worse... they obtained the money to do all this by selling arms to iranian rebels that took americans as hostages.
all thanks to reagan.

people before profits

Yeah , sure. When USSR and Varsaw pact nations were selling weapons to North-Korea and North-Vietnam it was different of course.

When former USSR sold 20 Mil-8 Hip chopper to Ethiopa, it was different too. This country didn't have foods problems. But they have to pay the 20 choppers. So, they stopped to produce rice and start to produce cotton to pay them.

Cotton for the choppers = no rice for the peoples, and they start to have foods problems. The Soviet were not looking to have any problems with this.

Try your propaganda with someone else Echelon. It's not working with me. I know what's the communism & the socialism.

And you can keep your " " for yourself. Behind it, it's only this " ".

Oh yeah, I asked you something in my last post :

" If the communism and socialism were so bright, I would like to know why many peoples left these communist country and went to the west ! Why many of them gave their live, while they were trying to go to the West ! "

I would like to have your opinion, may be you'll have an answer.

we must kill eminem!! *cocks shotgun* whos with me?

hmmm, maybe thats how the government is brainwashing our youth it uses pop as their weapon! and if that is the case them metal and most true rock is the salvation and the key to revolution. hmmm screw the shotgun i need a bazooka! lets take em all out! ahhahahahahah!

sorry.

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
" If the communism and socialism were so bright, I would like to know why many peoples left these communist country and went to the west ! Why many of them gave their live, while they were trying to go to the West ! "

I would like to have your opinion, may be you'll have an answer.

i've already tried explaining in various ways that communism was never applied correctly... therefore we were never able to view the legitimate outcomes.

and also... there are many socialist (not communist) nations today that aren't doing bad...
take a look at Canada, Sweden, or France.
Oh... and Canada was ranked no. 1 on the U.N.'s Human Development Report.



people before profits

now how did our topics change from eminem to communism?

when ultra_phoenix said "Echelon, I don't like your new avatar.

It have the same meaning like the nazi svastika !!!! It's sucks !!!!!!! "

remember the song 'Imagine' by the late, John Lennon...

last line: "And the world will live as one."

was he trying send hidden messages about the nwo through this song?
entire song:
frame src="http://www.merseyworld.com/imagine/lyrics/imagine.htm" width=400 height=100 frameborder=0 border=0 marginheight=0 marginwidth=0 vspace=0>

[ ultra_phoenix: he was a socialist too, heh ]

[Edited on 15-11-2002 by echelon]

Originally posted by echelon

i've already tried explaining in various ways that communism was never applied correctly... therefore we were never able to view the legitimate outcomes.

Hooooooo ???? " Excuse me sir, I did a mistake.I'll not do it anymore.Promise "
Vote 4 us, we will not kill you anymore !

Originally posted by echelon

and also... there are many socialist (not communist) nations today that aren't doing bad...
take a look at Canada, Sweden, or France.
Oh... and Canada was ranked no. 1 on the U.N.'s Human Development Report.


FRANCE ???? BWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....By the last elections, frenchies have voted for the right !!! Since Mitterand victory in 1981, France is on a deep # !!!!

Originally posted by echelon

people before profits

Of course. That's why they killed so many peoples ( the reds ), cuz they didn't have enough money for their peoples. It's normal, when you are spending 15/18% of your national incommes in your weapons ( Former USSR ) to 50% ( Viet-Nam,Ethiopia, North-Korea ), you can't take care from your peoples. So, like you are human, you think it's better to kill them.Like this, they'll not have to suffer from starvation and others disadvantages.

I don't understand how & why there is peoples like you. Muslims fundamentalists are less dangerous than peoples like you.


JL ? hu hu...a socialist...... let me laugh !!!!! A man who was so rich !!!!! " Do what I say, don't do what I do ". I didn't see him giving his fortune to the poors!!! I NEVER liked him. NEVER !!! Even when I didn't know that he was a socialist, I was hating him !

For bluegrl89 :

Sorry, it didn't start with me. It's started when Echelon took his commie avatar.


[Edited on 14-11-2002 by ultra_phoenix]

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
JL ? hu hu...a socialist...... let me laugh !!!!! A man who was so rich !!!!! "

in socialism there's a limited freemarket, unlike communism where the gov't is in control of all means of production and distribution of goods and services.
So it is possible for an individual to become rich under socialism... as long as the economy agrees with them

That something what was in Eastern Europe installed and later dismounted as extremely expensive, ineffective was nothing about communism or socialism as political systems. It was ëextendedí Christian compatible religion with some tools and economical tricks taken out of Marx and Engelís works. And your avatar shows these religion believers ëRed Crossí.
And this evergreen system blueprint is again used to frighten Tyler as a ëNew World Orderí
Your avatar is a good symbol for naive, faked western ëcommunistsí. Today, here it is only a symbol of poor anticipation and understanding of history.
Lamentable.
But maybe you are Holy Lenin Incarnation, who knows....

Originally posted by Kronos
Your avatar is a good symbol for naive, faked western ëcommunistsí.

well i'm not originally from the west... 'naive'... if that's your opinion... fine

[Edited on 12-1-2002 by echelon]