1 in 10 muslims would 'hide' a terrorist!

In my book "IT" beheading and blowing up people is violent. What, so it isn't??? And because I believe it is violent I am racist, is that it? I thought this forum was somewhere to express ones views without being attacked.

Once again.....

Originally posted by INc2006
islam is not violent. i lived in Jordan, i'm a christian however, nevertheles, muslims are not violent, and islam is not violent.

To which you responded

Originally posted by Hermann
I've had it wrong all this time. I always thought that beheading and blowing up people was violent. But now I realise it just sounds violent when it really isn't.

Since the violence you described was never disputed as being violent, the only possible reason you could have made the statement is to argue against the point that INc2006 made, which is Islam is non-violent.

Then you responded to my point that mathematically, your generalizations were wrong by saying

I was merely replying to the post stating that Islam only sounds violent but really isn't.

This quote confirms that the "IT" you were referring to was Islam and not the beheadings.

So I recommend you stop digging a hole you can't get out of.

Maybe you should stop analyzing every single word, you might get the idea of what is being said. See if you can twist that. Over and Out.

Okay Hermann, I may be wrong. I accept that.
Please clarify what you meant in your reply, and how it related to the quote that you embedded in your post.

Originally posted by Hermann
Maybe you should stop analyzing every single word, you might get the idea of what is being said. See if you can twist that. Over and Out.

The thing is, we already know all to well what you're going to say, and exactly what you mean by it, before you even submit the post... and it's the same never-ending circle that you and those like you started at the beginning of the thread. You don't have any experience with Muslims... you've either met very few or none at and clearly don't have the cultural education to even sustain a solid argument for what you're saying. Others who do are totally in disagreement with you, INCLUDING a Christian who lived in Jordan. Why can't you accept that you're wrong? Is it that you don't WANT to believe it?

Anyways, I've been thinking about the 1 in 10 quote... what was the sample? Something like 500 or so? That is just one small poll and it's hardly solid evidence to construct any sort of realistic picture of what UK Muslims really think in regards to these issues.

In any case, it's very true that many people take no effort to understand or respect a culture past what CNN or Faux news tells them. This is very hazardous because it's known that the news will only display the stuff that scares people to insure ratings. I can't vouch for the validity of the poll given, but I have my theories.

1. The poll is way off base, excluding key information, and not describing the specifics of the situation. (ie a "terror attack" not resulting in death or something)

2. The poll is accurate, and it voices a key concern being created by the governments' and media's attempt to villify all muslims, causing an extended brotherhood where there was none before.

Since we do know that there has been a direct increase in terror attacks since the war in Iraq, I'm leaning toward a combination of the two.

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
Imagine hussein has a world class military and we don't

Imagine 250,000 Iraqi soldiers in washington DC, and george bush on trial

Imagine you hear reports of american women being raped by Iraqi's, innocent civilians being killed

Imgine they install a puppet dictatorship to rule, and the UN supports it

Imagine you have no military left to fight off the invaders

Imagine the only way you can strike back is to strap bombs to your chest and blow something up

You are not as different from them as you would like to think my friend

Its all circumstance and perspective

Imagine all the people..

How do you know it would be the same?

Just because some individuals in the Middle East see it fit to strap themselves with bombs and rig vehicles with explosives to kill, doesn't mean the same would be repeated in the US. There's almost a different psyche involved. Btw strapping bombs to yourselves isn't the only way, that's ridiculous. You'll end up diminishing your 'attacking force' and end up losing. That's why it's isn't a successful strategy. Only a destructive ones.

Langolier

The number of muslims polled is irrelevent; it's statistical. If you're going question the poll because it only talked to 502 muslims out of some ... two million you said? Then why not question EVERY poll ever made? If this poll is invalid then I can safely say the one mentioned earlier about close to 50% of Iraqi's supporting attacks on U.S. troops to also be total bunk.

10% is a disturbing number. I'd love to see someone conduct a similar poll in the US but no one in the media would have the balls. Oh well, it's the UK's problem

I just read your comment, Why should I not question a poll, which implies that 1 in 10 muslims would withhold information, when only 509 out of 2 million muslims
were polled?

So 509 polled speaks for the rest of the muslim community in the UK?? Do not think so.

It would be just the same if say 10% of Christians would withhold information from the authorities, which to me
is not a significant number what so ever.

If they had polled say over 100 thousand muslims then oks I would say there is a problem.

These polls are misleading as as is the Media which exaggerates everything, and it is not just US based news channels that
does this it is also UK news agencies. Oh and Yeah it is a UK problem so dony you loose any sleep over it, next time we in the UK help yous out when there is another terroist attack.

helium3

tagged with: racism


100% spot on

Im not even gonna respond to that comment ...

[edit on 25-9-2006 by spencerjohnstone]

Originally posted by subz
If you demonize the many because of the actions of a few, then you are a racist. If you consider all muslims "violent" because of what muslim extremists do then you are a racist.

i don't really see what demonizing has to do with racism

i suggest you look up the term racism in a dictionnary

here is a link for you racism
and another one demonizing

example of demonizing : Luxemburgers are all evil warmongers and are responsible for the worlds problems (we are far from that of course with our mighty army of 600)

example of racism : Luxemburgish culture is inexistant, their average IQ and their physical appearance make them closer to apes than humans (that is sometimes true after having had a dozen pints or so )


I of course picked my own "kind" as an example to avoid discussions

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
I just read your comment, Why should I not question a poll, which implies that 1 in 10 muslims would withhold information, when only 509 out of 2 million muslims
were polled?

I didn't say you shouldn't question it. Quite the contrary; you should question everything you read in the media. Granted, doing so won't really accomplish anything anyway unless you can actually verify or disprove such findings yourself, something that can be a bit difficult for the common man. My point was that if you are going to question said poll, then you ought to question every other poll out there too. Don't just question polls when they contradict your beliefs or idiology, both sides are capable of and love to spew propaganda.

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
So 509 polled speaks for the rest of the muslim community in the UK?? Do not think so.

It would be just the same if say 10% of Christians would withhold information from the authorities, which to me
is not a significant number what so ever.

509 people might not represent the majority's opinion, but statistically there is a good chance that their sentiment is proportional to the whole's; that's how polls work. 10% might not seem like a lot until you consider how large a number you are dealing with. If there are only 2 million muslims in the UK then that is still some 200,000 muslims willing to shelter terrorists. That's a scary number.

Yawn - muslim bashing again. Round and round we go where this charade will end God only knows.

Most Americans would also hide a Terrorist - he's called George Bush and lives in the Whitehouse

hey flyboy

I can't say how americans would react, and I hope we never find out

I forgot to add a few more points


Imagine you are dirt poor, your father was dirt poor, and your children have no hope of being anything but dirt poor. Imagine instead of corn fields in the mid west, there is sand. Imagine all of our resources are gone, and all we have is oil, but we can't defend it from ravenous aggressors

Imagine christianity spells out that if you die in a holy war, St. Peter will welcome you into heaven, and place you at the right hand of god

Imagine you were indoctrinated about this reward for martyrism (is that a word ?) since you were born

Imagine the only guy with money in your village comes to you and tells you if you kill the invaders, you will go to heaven.


all I'm saying is these poor people live in horrible circumstances, and if americans lived under these curcumstances, the story MIGHT be very similar

have compassion for the citizens of Iraq, and hate the powers that be that are doing it all for the oil


.02

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
hey flyboy

I can't say how americans would react, and I hope we never find out

I forgot to add a few more points


Imagine you are dirt poor, your father was dirt poor, and your children have no hope of being anything but dirt poor. Imagine instead of corn fields in the mid west, there is sand. Imagine all of our resources are gone, and all we have is oil, but we can't defend it from ravenous aggressors

Imagine christianity spells out that if you die in a holy war, St. Peter will welcome you into heaven, and place you at the right hand of god

Imagine you were indoctrinated about this reward for martyrism (is that a word ?) since you were born

Imagine the only guy with money in your village comes to you and tells you if you kill the invaders, you will go to heaven.


all I'm saying is these poor people live in horrible circumstances, and if americans lived under these curcumstances, the story MIGHT be very similar

have compassion for the citizens of Iraq, and hate the powers that be that are doing it all for the oil


.02

It's different if you have a situation whereby you grow up, indoctrined into religion and it is the only thing you've known. In these cases it is easy to tell them anything and make them believe anything. Especially if they have no access to tv/internet/radio and free un-filtered information. However this isn't the case everywhere, such as in the UK where they radicals have been brought up in UK society, yet are taken in by the radical hate preaching clerics. Although you'd link that with disenchantment. Where some individuals for some reason have the urge to commit extreme actions.

I certainly have compassion for the innocent Iraqi civilians who've suffered from the ongoing troubles. However i don't agree with your assessment of this being all for oil, that's complete BS frankly and you know it.

There are places much closer to the US that has plenty of oil, Venezuela & Siberia for starters. Why travel all that way just for oil, especially when the pipelines are constantly being sabotaged. It's doesn't wash, and is simply an argument used by people who have a need to dislike the government, since it is trendy. Oil is RUNNING out, why fight so hard for it? Renewable energy hopefully will come to the fore, especially the massive potential of hydrogen powered engines.

flyboy, why aren't the US soldiers in darfur ?


no oil

Originally posted by Hvitserk
i don't really see what demonizing has to do with racism

i suggest you look up the term racism in a dictionnary

Getting past the irony of telling me to look a word up in a "dictionnary"...I completely disagree with your contention.

Racism is literally the belief that race is the determinant for a certain trait or action.

Since we're hearing that muslims i.e. Middle Easterners are violent because they follow Islam, that is racism. That rationale implies that if I see a Middle Eastern man I should automatically assume he is violent because he is a muslim.

I dont see how you can fail to see the connection between "demonization", which is the process of bestowing a sense of evil on something (muslims), and "racism" which is believing race is a determinant for such evil.

Originally posted by Hermann

Originally posted by INc2006
islam is not violent. i lived in Jordan, i'm a christian however, nevertheles, muslims are not violent, and islam is not violent. and it is a religion. the only thing that makes it sound violent are those ayatollahs and religious leaders who use islam as a tool for them to gain power and money.

I've had it wrong all this time. I always thought that beheading and blowing up people was violent. But now I realise it just sounds violent when it really isn't.

i didn't say it sounds violent, i said those ayatollahs and "religious" leaders are the one that preach this stuff, not actual islam teachings... read right and understand first before you talk, junior...

Originally posted by Langolier

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
I just read your comment, Why should I not question a poll, which implies that 1 in 10 muslims would withhold information, when only 509 out of 2 million muslims
were polled?

I didn't say you shouldn't question it. Quite the contrary; you should question everything you read in the media. Granted, doing so won't really accomplish anything anyway unless you can actually verify or disprove such findings yourself, something that can be a bit difficult for the common man. My point was that if you are going to question said poll, then you ought to question every other poll out there too. Don't just question polls when they contradict your beliefs or idiology, both sides are capable of and love to spew propaganda.

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
So 509 polled speaks for the rest of the muslim community in the UK?? Do not think so.

It would be just the same if say 10% of Christians would withhold information from the authorities, which to me
is not a significant number what so ever.

509 people might not represent the majority's opinion, but statistically there is a good chance that their sentiment is proportional to the whole's; that's how polls work. 10% might not seem like a lot until you consider how large a number you are dealing with. If there are only 2 million muslims in the UK then that is still some 200,000 muslims willing to shelter terrorists. That's a scary number.

509 over 2million muslims living in the UK, that's a very little percentage, that's only about .01018/1 person, that's about only 1% of all muslims in the UK, you still have 99% of the muslim population in the UK unknown, that means you have something like 50% +-!!!!!! or even more.

Originally posted by Flyboy211

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
hey flyboy

I can't say how americans would react, and I hope we never find out

I forgot to add a few more points


Imagine you are dirt poor, your father was dirt poor, and your children have no hope of being anything but dirt poor. Imagine instead of corn fields in the mid west, there is sand. Imagine all of our resources are gone, and all we have is oil, but we can't defend it from ravenous aggressors

Imagine christianity spells out that if you die in a holy war, St. Peter will welcome you into heaven, and place you at the right hand of god

Imagine you were indoctrinated about this reward for martyrism (is that a word ?) since you were born

Imagine the only guy with money in your village comes to you and tells you if you kill the invaders, you will go to heaven.


all I'm saying is these poor people live in horrible circumstances, and if americans lived under these curcumstances, the story MIGHT be very similar

have compassion for the citizens of Iraq, and hate the powers that be that are doing it all for the oil


.02

It's different if you have a situation whereby you grow up, indoctrined into religion and it is the only thing you've known. In these cases it is easy to tell them anything and make them believe anything. Especially if they have no access to tv/internet/radio and free un-filtered information. However this isn't the case everywhere, such as in the UK where they radicals have been brought up in UK society, yet are taken in by the radical hate preaching clerics. Although you'd link that with disenchantment. Where some individuals for some reason have the urge to commit extreme actions.

I certainly have compassion for the innocent Iraqi civilians who've suffered from the ongoing troubles. However i don't agree with your assessment of this being all for oil, that's complete BS frankly and you know it.

There are places much closer to the US that has plenty of oil, Venezuela & Siberia for starters. Why travel all that way just for oil, especially when the pipelines are constantly being sabotaged. It's doesn't wash, and is simply an argument used by people who have a need to dislike the government, since it is trendy. Oil is RUNNING out, why fight so hard for it? Renewable energy hopefully will come to the fore, especially the massive potential of hydrogen powered engines.

okay look first of all go to venezuela, it's much easier to fight in the desert than to fight in the jungle or the rain forest. as for siberia, if i'm a strategist, i don't think i'd be willing to fight in such weather, nor will i like seeing 30k nuclear warheads falling on my country from russia.

let me give you an example of why palestinians would strap bombs to thereselves:

lets say your mr. palestinian, your living i n your house, one day you hear some sounds you go outside, you see a tank a few soldiers and Mr. Israeli settler coming down the street. the soldier comes to you and says: "hi Mr. Palestinain, you have a really nice hom here, unfortunatly you have to give it up to our Mr. Israeli settler... or else" you ask what, and then you see the tanks gun turning it's aim at your house, you run inside, gather your family, gather whatever you can, and get out, and you see Mr. Israeli settler taking over your house. your kids are on the streets now, they have no future, no school, no nothing, they keep sleeping hungry day after day, you get frustrated, they get frustrated, and finally what would you do, you tell me? an Israeli prime minister himself, Rabin, said that he would turn into a terrorist if he was a palestinian, so please don't tell me that terrorism is not created out of situations such as the ones mentioned by syrinx high priest. same thing in IRAQ, and in most coutnries who have terrorism. and btw before Saddam was taken out, there was no terrorism coming out of Iraq, no al-qaida in Iraq.

in UK i don't know much, but i believe the cause of extremism is either media exxageration, or thier failure to be assimilated into society. plus not all 2 million muslims int he UK are extremists and all, there should be at least 200k-500k that are assimilated and blending into UK society. and maybe 1mil or maybe 1.45mil moderates, and maybe the rest are into religion and/or are extremist. and only part of the religios and/or extremists are the ones who would hide terrorism.

I picture George Bush sitting at a bar with Bin Laden saying:

George: "Nice job Bin man. Your home videos for the news where simply superb. These "simple life" minded citizens still think that terrorists helped us get an excuse to conquer Iraq and Afghanistan for our oil for dollars/money driven agendas. They still know that we have recovered advanced anti-gravity alien spacecraft but still can not figure out that we do have free energy technology in our possession. This is great, not only the trading currency for oil is still the dollar instead of the Euro, but we are now able to use oil as a world tax!

Bin Laden: "Quite true. These "simple minded" nine to fivers actually believe that you keep catching these top terrorist leaders alive and without a fight. But, I must say that your "9-11 attack show" was very sloppy. Despite only a small hole in the side of the Pentagon, bombs going off at the bottom of the Trade Center, a completely untouched building 7 becoming completely demolished about 7 hours after the 2 major buildings fell to the ground, the plane over Pennsylvania being shot down and the ground being missiled to indicate a crash, your people skills still seemed to hypnotize the people like a herd of sheep. Ha, ha, hah... You're still the man...Bush man!"

George Bush: "No, you da man!.....Bin Man!"

George Bush and Bin Laden: "Ha, Ha, Ha, Hah......"

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
flyboy, why aren't the US soldiers in darfur ?


no oil

That's amusing you picked a random country with no relevance and asked why the US (nor anyone else BTW) is there. NOTHING to do with oil, i can come up with a more plausible and likely explanation. The US is already in Kosovo, Afghanistan & Iraq, it's stretched as it is. Question is why hasn't anyone else gone to Darfur? Btw there is oil in Nigeria, perhaps minimal but i don't see the US attacking Nigeria for it. Also i don't remember oil being found in Kosovo (where countless Muslims had been butchered), yet the US led the NATO forces in operations there. You're clearly on the "oil bandwagon" because it's the thing to say and you don't really know the reason for why. Think for yourself, make up your own mind, don't follow the crowd.

Originally posted by INc2006
okay look first of all go to venezuela, it's much easier to fight in the desert than to fight in the jungle or the rain forest. as for siberia, if i'm a strategist, i don't think i'd be willing to fight in such weather, nor will i like seeing 30k nuclear warheads falling on my country from russia.

Probably a good thing you're not a strategist. First you cannot always be picky when it comes to what kind of climates you fight in. Hence why forces tend to train in all weather and climate conditions. If a situation arises in an area that is frozen over, then you have to go there, whether you'd rather it or not. Fighting in the desert just gives you as many headaches. Intense heat, freezing temperatures at night, sand clogging weapons and even the M1 Abrams' turbine engine, lack of water in certain areas. Not exactly paradise. Btw Russia would not fire nuclear weapons against the US, there is something called 'mutually assured destruction', which more or less guarantees that they wouldn't be used. The US has a much more effective and modern anti-nuclear deterrent than Russia.The fact that you mention no one would want to go to somewhere like Siberia, suggests that if someone took it, Russia may be hesistant in taking it back. As you're obviously not aware of, Canada is only second behind Saudi Arabia in terms of world oil production, will they be attacked heh?

Originally posted by INc2006
let me give you an example of why palestinians would strap bombs to thereselves:

lets say your mr. palestinian, your living i n your house, one day you hear some sounds you go outside, you see a tank a few soldiers and Mr. Israeli settler coming down the street. the soldier comes to you and says: "hi Mr. Palestinain, you have a really nice hom here, unfortunatly you have to give it up to our Mr. Israeli settler... or else" you ask what, and then you see the tanks gun turning it's aim at your house, you run inside, gather your family, gather whatever you can, and get out, and you see Mr. Israeli settler taking over your house. your kids are on the streets now, they have no future, no school, no nothing, they keep sleeping hungry day after day, you get frustrated, they get frustrated, and finally what would you do, you tell me? an Israeli prime minister himself, Rabin, said that he would turn into a terrorist if he was a palestinian, so please don't tell me that terrorism is not created out of situations such as the ones mentioned by syrinx high priest. same thing in IRAQ, and in most coutnries who have terrorism. and btw before Saddam was taken out, there was no terrorism coming out of Iraq, no al-qaida in Iraq.

in UK i don't know much, but i believe the cause of extremism is either media exxageration, or thier failure to be assimilated into society. plus not all 2 million muslims int he UK are extremists and all, there should be at least 200k-500k that are assimilated and blending into UK society. and maybe 1mil or maybe 1.45mil moderates, and maybe the rest are into religion and/or are extremist. and only part of the religios and/or extremists are the ones who would hide terrorism.

Let me refer you to what i said earlier. I said that what's happened in the Middle East wouldn't necessarily be repeated say in the US, if it was attacked. I also stated that i believed suicide bombing is a useless tactic.

Also the UK extremist bombers didn't exactly fail to assimilate in UK society, they were more or less a part of it. Some had families, normal jobs, lifestyles etc, on the outside they seemed no different to anyone else, except obviously in their extreme views and actions. It's disenchantment that caused such men to go those lengths. I also never stated that it was all Muslims, try not to insinuate such things.