Ernesto "Che" Guevara De La Serna

Thank you for removing the profanity and being ladylike.

Also I did not know you were from Cuba...hence the passion... described in other rooms. Thanks for the update.

Orangetom

[edit on 29-9-2006 by orangetom1999]

What the hell just happen?????????????

en.wikipedia.org...

Wiki it, simple. He was a murderer, plain and simple. Hell, read his works and its' clear he advocated crimes against humanity, including forced labor camps.

DE

I did not realize my computer had burped out all those replys on page one.. As I recall I only posted once. I dont know what happened but my apologies to the room for the burp.

Orangetom

Orangetom,

I thought maybe you were a stutterer.

Originally posted by DeusEx
en.wikipedia.org...

Wiki it, simple. He was a murderer, plain and simple. Hell, read his works and its' clear he advocated crimes against humanity, including forced labor camps.

DE

i never said that che was a HERO

i said that he isn't as bad as he's portrayed in this thread.

and NOTHING about political revolutions is ever plain and simple

also, not 1 person has given any proof that cuba was better BEFORE communism

EDIT
we also know that WIKI is the MOST RELIABLE source

[edit on 10/1/06 by madnessinmysoul]

It really doesn't mater what Guevara was. It is the way he is perceived as time has passed. It simply is not a question as simple as good or bad. His image is more universally known that the Pope's. People have made him whatever they believed he should be- villan or hero. Most see him simply as someone who died for his principles. This is most certainly the case. Few universally-known individuals have actually done so.

This makes him an icon and martyr whether we like it or not. Our perception of him is mixed with myth and legend. He is truly a modern phenomena manufactured by our imaginations that attribute things to him which never were. He was no Hitler but no Ghandi either. He was something in between as are all of us.

It is curious that when oppressed people fight for a cause of better working conditions or human rights they are drawn to his mantle of perceived protection. Whether your little employment group has successfully lobbied for a small raise in wages or your citizen militia has just ousted a dictator you can share the same refrain of Venceremos.

Che's image has come to stand as an icon for those who admire the little guy standing up to the Goliaths of the world. He is the eternal everyman's underdog that people root for. He is the middle finger raised in salute to your boss who continually exploits your talents beyond the acceptable.

There are few who have gained the mystical position he has. And the real phenomenon is the fact that he was elevated to this status by the word of mouth of the people of the world. There was no Wall St. ad campaign to shove any of the iconic imagery down the people's throats.

The folklore surrounding Guevara has transcended his failures or successes in history. That is what is amazing. It matters not what he is branded by people pro or con. I find it a simply interesting phenomenon that you can go anywhere in the world and people of all cultures recognize his image. Furthermore, correctly or not most people perceive him as a positive entity. Maybe only Coca Cola is as universally known.

Guevara is the ultimate image of defiance. "You can't park here. No walking on the grass. No smoking. No speeding. No swimming." So for better or worse the planet is stuck with his stoney image. It hasn't gone away and has actually grown from a grass roots admiration to universal recognition. Deal with it.

Che is a way of making money. From t-shirts to coffee coasters, there is probebly alot of money involved in this communist, bearded martyr. Capitalism is benefiting from his death in ways he would've never imagined. I even saw an "official" Che Guevera calender. Now how in the hell can you get an "official" Che Guevera calender? Is there like some kind of estate where all the money goes to?

Uncle Guevera: Yes! Yes, that is a good idea to have a Che sex toy!
Auntie Guevera: Yes, he would've wanted that...

Sorry, just another inane ramble, but one that should be made.

[edit on 6/10/06 by MacDonagh]

Originally posted by MacDonagh
Che is a way of making money. From t-shirts to coffee coasters, there is probebly alot of money involved in this communist, bearded martyr. Capitalism is benefiting from his death in ways he would've never imagined. I even saw an "official" Che Guevera calender. Now how in the hell can you get an "official" Che Guevera calender? Is there like some kind of estate where all the money goes to?

Uncle Guevera: Yes! Yes, that is a good idea to have a Che sex toy!

Auntie Guevera: Yes, he would've wanted that...

Sorry, just another inane ramble, but one that should be made.

[edit on 6/10/06 by MacDonagh]

Well Said.

Che is just something trendy college kids who are "anti establishment" sport so people think them enlightened rebels or something.

The guy was no better or worse than any other tin pot revolutionary who basically took one old regime of oppresion and replaced it with a new regime of oppression that worse a different suit.

I am yet to see any marxist revolution that has actually signifigantly improved the lives of the people it rules.

Like dgtempe has said, as well as others, look at the hoardes of Cuban refugees who are risking life and limb converting old trucks to escape to the US. That tells me life in Cuba is less than adequate, no better than the former junta.

He died excercising principles he believed in anyhow. That can't be said for many others who get on a soap box.

True. He believed what he was doing was right. The CIA inadvertantly made him a martyr, so it's their fault. Maybe they've got a stake in the Guevera estate?

Wouldn't surprise me...

Che fought for what he believed in. Castro benefited from his labours.

Originally posted by dgtempe
Madness,

You dont know what youre saying. How about you put your propaganda books down and talk to some real Cubans who are starving, who had all taken away from them?!
Do not post lies, saying Cuba is much better off now than it was...

You dont have any idea what you're saying.

Of course not. Fulgencio Batista was the greatest national leader the 20th Century saw...

Most of those "who had all taken away from them" were the Generals, functionaries and supporters of Batista who made their millions from his corrupt government exploiting the people. Not to mention the New York Mob.

Fidel should stick his medical ingenuity where the sun dont shine and feed his people and provide proper shelter and liveable conditions for his people...

Right, because even 'though they've got free universal health care, Cubans are a bunch of starving homeless bums with nowehere to live and nothing to eat...

instead, they're still risking their lives everyday coming across the Atlantic on inner tubes just to escape the opression there.

Of course they are, you can practically walk from Cuba to Miami from one raft to another without getting your feet wet...

If you think its so good there perhaps you should pack and go there.

Now that's insightful.

Say, why are there shortages in Cuba? Wouldn't have anything to do with an embargo, would it? What is the justification for that embargo? Do you actually know?


As for the actual topic of this thread: Che.

My appraisal of Che is this: Che was an idiot. He disregarded his own teachings when he went to Bolivia and paid the price. Do you know who wrote the Bolivian's manual on counter-insurgency? Che did. They just read his book.

As to choosing Bolivia...This is a country named after a revolutionary leader, Simon de Bolivar, they didn't want another one.

instead, they're still risking their lives everyday coming across the Atlantic on inner tubes just to escape the opression there.

Of course they are, you can practically walk from Cuba to Miami from one raft to another without getting your feet wet...


actually is not i made the trip my self and it isn't that easy when your on a raft.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by The Black Widow
Tell that to the cubans! He did do some of those thing but he was a murder and should never forget it.

killing those that are trying to kill you is called self defense

and cuba is a lot better now than it was before the revolution

healthcare is universal
literacy is at 100% (higher than the USA)

and you cannot honestly say that the previous cuban government was better, can you?

omfg you are an i...., what are you talking about, i was born in cuba. at the age of four i stoped recieving powder milk because i was to old according to them. at the age of 8 you stop recieving meat from them and no you cant go buy anywhere else.
there isn't even aspirin any more theres hardly any sugar. i remenber when they were smuggling iv out of hospitals to sweeten coffee. the education is great but you can wipe your butt with it cause it isn't useful. and if you want more fu***** proof u2u me ill send you some real nice pics of my starving familly and the colorless houses and the great wooden hospital with the 100% universal care sytem,

a** holw

Off-topic...

Originally posted by solidsnake1331

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
cuba is a lot better now than it was before the revolution

healthcare is universal
literacy is at 100% (higher than the USA)

and you cannot honestly say that the previous cuban government was better, can you?

omfg you are an i...., what are you talking about, i was born in cuba. at the age of four i stoped recieving powder milk because i was to old according to them. at the age of 8 you stop recieving meat from them and no you cant go buy anywhere else.
there isn't even aspirin any more theres hardly any sugar. i remenber when they were smuggling iv out of hospitals to sweeten coffee. the education is great but you can wipe your butt with it cause it isn't useful. and if you want more fu***** proof u2u me ill send you some real nice pics of my starving familly and the colorless houses and the great wooden hospital with the 100% universal care sytem,

a** holw

And why does Cuba have shortages?

Is it because the Commandante is hoarding everything in his spare shoe closet?

Or is it because his potential biggest trading partner, with the region's (to say nothing of the world's) largest economy has put a trade embargo on his country and banned its citizens from doing business with him? Banned its airlines from flying to his island? In fact, banned any sort of direct travel whatsoever...?

Why is it okay to trade with Communist Vietnam, which put every ARVN soldier through "re-education" (in the case of Generals for more than ten years), which put its VN-appointed Cambodian Prime Minister in a Hanoi jail for a decade when he dared to espouse pro-Cambodian policies instead of toeing the puppet line, which nationalised every private asset in the country, why is it okay to trade with them, to exchange military goodwill missions and state visits, but its not okay to trade with Cuba, which was illegally invaded by the US and whose head of state the US attempted to assassinate?

Wow, I didn't realise Cuba was the world's only nation of adult vegetarians...

As for smuggling IV drips out of hospital to sweeten coffee, talk about pathetic, self-indulgent human greed. That isn't the government's fault.

As to that statement, he was no good, i agree, however, people owned their homes and businesses, while under Fidel, everything was taken away from the people. Nobody left Cuba under Fulgencio Batista- Oh, and it was regular average people who lost everything, not just druglords

Like i said, talk to Cubans and forget the history books which have a tendency to lie.

While Castro has offered every US dministration to trade none have. If they were so concerned for the human rights they'd do it. Instead they just want to be azzholes and punish Castro through the Cubanos.

Whatever happens to Cuba in the future you can be sure there are hordes of corporations salivating at the idea of virgin territory to exploit again, and right in their own back yard! Cuba doesn't need to return to a position as America's brothel as it was in the 1950s.

I can't see any outcome for Cuba other than it becoming another resort for the US. Yeah Haiti, Dominican Republic, the Bahamas, Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, Cayman Islands and the whole of Mexico just aren't enough. We need Cuba to take its place once again as a subservient domestic for us.

Ahh Mr. Che, El Che Che Chero.. The Latino revolutionary fighter in support of Communist interests against the American imperialism mandate of New World Order totalitarian domination..

Ahhh, the good ol 'days when the CIA could capture and execute hostiles without any guff of internet e-mails and instant messaging...

On that note; Is there an echo in here? here. here.. here...? lol

[edit on 13-10-2006 by syntaxer]