I don't think it's guts that drives these predators, so much as it is lust. I can't even imagine what could possibly be going on in their minds that they would trust anyone they just met on line, much less go to a private residence expecting to meet a child. They are exceedingly fortunate that men with cameras and police are all that awaits them.

However, the idea of two adults chatting with one another, each carrying out his own charade seems to be a perversion all its own. That's why it's is apropos that the organization that conducts these stings is called Perverted Justice.

I recognize that predators need to be brought to justice and that children need to be protected, but any law enforcement action that even comes close to resembling entrapment gives me the willies. It doesn't matter what the issue is--drugs, sex, murder, or sawed-off shotguns.

[edit on 2006/9/22 by GradyPhilpott]

"Devals" and "Angles" are metaphors for people. Humans are the worlds only true monsters. There are those who kill to define the world. Then there are those who kill in personal shelfish intent.

Is it entrapment?

The adult are always the one who initiate contact. The Peverted Justice people are not entering chat rooms and messaging random people, they just idle until someone contacts them.

The people posing as the minor in these situations are not making the effort to make an arrangment, they simply follow along in the conversation.

It is a think slice of entrapment possibly, but it is a much needed one.

Most predators who are profiled enter the house and sit patiently before being exposed. On last nights episode, one man came in the house and was preparing to follow her up the stairs without her knowing. Who knows what could of happened to the minor if this was not a scam.

I know that legally it's not entrapment and, as I said, I'm glad that those who would violate children can be brought to justice before they can do so, but we are Americans and this is after all Politics @ ATS where everyone is paranoid of Big Brother.

Law enforcement also sells drugs to people and then arrests them after the purchase. It's called a reverse operation. According to police, they never approach people about buying drugs, they just wait until someone asks them where they can get some and then they direct them to the police officer with the goods, which comes from the police evidence room with the blessing of a judge.

I like the idea of getting drug abusers off the street, but this method gives me the willlies, also.

I guess you could say that the whole mess makes me sick and I guess the less I hear about it the better.

I'm betwixt and between on this issue, on one hand: Exposing these lowlifes for what they are is a good thing, nothing but. On the other: Preemptive exposure before they actually do anything...seems somehow unfair.

Yes they're monsters who want to hurt children, but they haven't done anything yet.

This is a tough, tough call...I suppose I would have to come down on the side of preemptive action. Protect the innocent, not much wrong with that.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I guess you could say that the whole mess makes me sick and I guess the less I hear about it the better.

Thats it right there isn't it.

This is one of them things that we can honestly say, I'd rather not hear about.

I for one do not want to know some of the details of these predators.

Originally posted by seagull
On the other: Preemptive exposure before they actually do anything...seems somehow unfair.

If you read some of the logs from the chats, you may not feel that they have not done anything. The graphic nature of these discussions is disturbing. They often show up with alcohol and condoms. Thirty five year old men talking dirty to a thirteen year old girl? They are guilty of this, I would like to think that is a crime.

Buying alcohol for a minor? That is a crime, not punished by jail time but a stiff fine.

The condoms show intent to have sex with a minor, which I am sure is a crime. What if the minor refuses intercourse? Is the predator going to politely zip up and exit the house? Unlikely, in these situations there is no ideal outcome.

A few people profiled on these shows have openly admitted in the conversations their fear of being busted on Dateline. Ironic that they are profiled on the very show they are openly admitting to be scared of.

They know & understand the consequences. All of these actions are premeditated.

Simply is no excuse, they belong behind bars.

The process can be iffy at times, but it is what we have for now. The fact is it works and with it maybe your daughters are alittle safer while online.

ed: missed the T in thirty

[edit on 24-9-2006 by chissler]

Let me rephrase that particular part of my last post, Chissler. Exposure of who and what these creatures are is a good thing. This particular sordid crime has touched my family deeply in the past, and the issues resulting from these crimes are still festering. My comment was a result of, I suppose, not wanting to touch a sore spot, not because I think these animals should be protected.

Never would I want these people (?) to be able to slink back into the dark to continue their horrific acts. Never that...

It never crossed my mind that your post was in defense of these creatures. (Well Put)

Just the wording was something that stood out, so I wanted to point it out and see how you would elaborate.

It is a good point to touch on.

We are arresting the individuals before they commit the actual crime. Is that sensible? Justifiable?

Alot of us would love to say the hell with the justice system, to hell with whats right and wrong, lets take these guys out back and settle the score.

Well luckily enough, we do have a system set in place to deal with these creatures. The justice system can not be used to protect them, it has to be used to persecute them.

A sting operation is set up to arrest individuals who are purchasing drugs. Well we can allow for these people to actually buy the drug before acting. Are we willing to put anyone at risk in order to fully prosecute these monsters? If someone was willing to be trained in the field, and put themself at risk in order for justice then I would fully support it. Of course with the proper training and backup, but for now it appears that system is not operational so we have to work with what we have.

I am in agreement with you. Where does the rights of the accused end, and the rights of the victims begin? This is the grayest of areas, and should be explored further, not just in the case of these people (?), but in any area of criminal investigation where prevention and/or preemptive action takes place.

Originally posted by seagull
Where does the rights of the accused end, and the rights of the victims begin?

So much room for discussion here. I would love to hear what some members had to say on this. Sometimes our justice system does get in the way of True Justice but without it things would be alittle chaotic. Alittle being a vast understatement.

Seagull and Chissler I must come down on the side of exposure of these things these horrible evil things. As Seagull knows I've worked in a prison for almost 17 years and I can tell you from personnal experience that they donot change not at all. The vast majority of child molesters/rapists donot believe they have done anything wrong. With them there is no rehabilitation because they don't want to change. Exposure is the only way to bring them to justice; the only chance for our children to be safe from these things is to shine a bright light on them so that all know who or rather what they are.

Seagull, you are correct the pain of that long ago event in our family festers still with the pain continuing. I fear our family is permantlydivided and torn. I can't help but think that had it been exposed much sooner the damage might not have been so devastating.

gallopingghordes,

I do not want to mislead anyone on my stance for this issue. I am 110% on exposure of these creatures. I think it can make for a good discussion if we had a member who believed we should not be persecuting these individuals if they had not commited the crime yet. But to be honest, I would hope ATS does not have a member who would advocate such a thing.

Chissler you were very clear but for both Seagull and me this is a painful topic I feel very strongly about. I'm with you expose them and keep children safe. I also agree I would hope we wouldn't have a member who felt like that either. The thought of this particular crime fills me with so much rage to be honest with you I go out of my way to NOT find out which inmate has been convicted of this much easier for me to be professional.

Exposure is precisely what is needed. True justice would be lining these creatures up longside a wall and shooting them in the head. I will admit that my own bias is showing here, but I am fairly certain that my views would be the same were my family history different. This sordid crime has torn my family apart, my two oldest sisters and to a certain extent my father, are probably permanently estranged from myself and my other three sibs, one of whom is Gallopinghordes. My nephew is currently finishing a term in prison for indecent liberties with a minor. I have severed all relations with him, and two of my sisters. Just an aside, this is my nephews second go 'round for this sort of offense, the other was while he was a juvenile, so records are sealed.

Actual justice is seeing these animals, supposedly rehabilitated, reentering society only to reoffend again, and again, and again, and still again...

Generally speaking my views on capital punishment are less is more. Have it, but use it sparingly. In this one instance, child molestation should warrant an automatic death sentence upon conviction. These creatures do not rehabilitate, they learn to mask and to hide that's all.

I know of one class III molester in my area, I've met him on two occaisions...once before I knew who he was, the second time after...I hope to God Above that there is never a third time...he has admitted to over 100 acts of exposing himself to children as young as 6, he was convicted of rape of a child...was tossed out of his treatment because he would not admit he was wrong. Yet today he lives, not more than 3/4 of a mile from an elementary school. Kids walk by his address of record to and from school every day.

The rights of the victims to live without fear of this man are obviously being violated. I don't know the children...or maybe I do. Maybe some of you know one of his many victims...how are their rights being protected? Yes...yes...everyone accused of this sort of horrific crime deserves a fair trial, anyone accused of any crime does...

So many of the animals that are accused, and/or convicted, turn out to have long histories of offences against children, when does enough become enough. My answer is once, and only once...upon conviction and unsuccessful appeal...either life imprisonment w/o parole, or death. There is no deterent value to this, it's removing a cancerous malignency from society.

These monsters, almost alone out of most criminals, get no second chance. Deserve no second chance. They've violated that most sacred of trusts, the trust of a child that adults protect them from the monters, not become the monsters...

I've said enough for the moment...

Well said seagull.

I enjoyed your point on the sacred trust of an adult to a child. Young children would quickly bond a trust with a complete stranger to protect them, its simply their nature.

I also agree with your stance on capital punishment. Have it but use it sparingly is a good way to look at it. As much as I believe it to be deserving for these monsters, I can't see it happening.

How about we throw them in prison with a big label saying they are a child molester? This would leave us with the same outcome, only skip the ten years of appeals.

Yeah, it would...one little problem with that though, Chissler. My sister, and the others who work corrections would have to try to stop it, and might get hurt...obviously I couldn't care less about the perv getting stomped, but I do care about my sister and her friends, some of whom I know. I certainly understand the sentiment though.

Another example of a predatious monster is the following individual: This monster was arrested just recently in my area; the charge is third degree rape of a child, along with a charge of possession of drug paraphernalia; it turns out this mothers mistake has two previous convictions of first degree child molestation. For those who don't know the first degree indicates that his victims were under the age of 12. The question is merely rhetorical: Why in the hell was this monster walking the streets?

Sentencing guidelines need to be strengthened, then enforced as written. No judge sponcered social engineering allowed. No allowances for age, number of offenses, types of offences. Molestation is molestation equals a long, long, long stay in prison...

Is the age the determing factor of the degree of the charge?

I understood the difference in age would constitute either Molestation or Pedophile. Rape on a young child would have you considered a pedophile while older children would constitute molestation.

Are we talking of the same thing? Can you offer some insight to this?

Twice now I've see the word persecuted instead of prosecuted in reference to these sexual predators and it bothers me a bit, just as the entire exposure operation bothers me a bit. I understand you aren't actively soliciting these predators, but when one does finally contact what they believe is a young girl or boy and you respond (or as you said, just follow along with the conversation), does the response in any way encourage further contact/conversation? If it does, then that bothers me quite a bit. I'm all for identifying such predators/suspected predators, but not for persecuting them prior to some actual breach of the law.