The overall impact of Bio fuels., page 1

posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 08:12 PM

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Jeffrey McNeely is an chief scientist with IUCN, the World Conservation Union he has written an opinion piece that points out some of the lesser known ways that bio fuels will effect the environment.

news.bbc.co.uk
However, biofuels - made by producing ethanol, an alcohol fuel made from maize, sugar cane, or other plant matter - may be a penny wise but pound foolish way of doing so.

Consider the following:

* The grain required to fill the petrol tank of a Range Rover with ethanol is sufficient to feed one person per year. Assuming the petrol tank is refilled every two weeks, the amount of grain required would feed a hungry African village for a year
* Much of the fuel that Europeans use will be imported from Brazil, where the Amazon is being burned to plant more sugar and soybeans, and Southeast Asia, where oil palm plantations are destroying the rainforest habitat of orangutans and many other species. Species are dying for our driving

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

The author makes some very valid points that world leaders and ordinary people should take heed to. IMO we cant ignore Bio fuels because of the effects that increased demand will have on the environment. Instead people should get over there fear of genetic engineering provided that sensible precautions are taken to prevent the likes of genetically engineered plants from crossing breding with other wild or farmed vegetation.

Nuclear power has its limiteds as do other alternative means of producing engery for example Im not sure if we will ever see the likes of Nuclear powered cars. For this reason it is even more important that world leaders and scientists deal with the issues outlined in the article.

Of course the the world could have delt with some of these problems along time ago if world leaders had looked for alternatives to Oil while world Oil prices were lower due to less demand from the likes of China.

TheBandit795

posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 08:16 PM

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So if they're right... We can't use biodiesel because we'll mess up the enviroment

We can't use the oil we've used the past 100 years, because it's obviously messing up the enviroment.

Hydrogen economy is still too expensive.

That's it. I'm bringing Stanley Meyer back from the dead.

soficrow

posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 08:20 PM

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Good find.

But:

Instead people should get over there fear of genetic engineering provided that sensible precautions are taken to prevent the likes of genetically engineered plants from crossing breding with other wild or farmed vegetation.

Not done; probably not possible.

And the GM companies sue the little farmers who use seed from their own wind-contaminated grain.

IMO - the 'fear of genetic engineering' is well-grounded, based on sound science.

thematrix

posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 08:20 PM

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This is just why I prefer to focus the bio diesel industry completely on waste management.

Every day millions of liters of vegetable oil are tossed away. Collect that and refine it to bio diesel!

Every day 100's of millions of pounds of organic waste is produced and "flushed down the toilet", tossed in sewers, trown away and so on, alot of that can be converted in fuels of all sorts.

soficrow

posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 08:23 PM

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Agreed matrix.

But obviously, there's no real profit in it, or else it would be rolling. So how do we jumpstart the waste-into-fuel industry?

xpert11

posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 10:35 PM

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Originally posted by soficrow
And the GM companies sue the little farmers who use seed from their own wind-contaminated grain.

That would be or is an issue that governments and private firms need to deal with.

IMO - the 'fear of genetic engineering' is well-grounded, based on sound science.

I dont doubt that there are reasons to take precautions I just think that if people had the same attitude towards cars that environmetalists have towards GE there would be no cars on the road due to the fear of accidents.

But obviously, there's no real profit in it, or else it would be rolling. So how do we jumpstart the waste-into-fuel industry?

There has to be a demand for bio fuels. IMO the best approach would be a partnership between governments and private firms. Governments could provide incentives such a tax breakes and some the funding towards bio fuel projects while the private firms could develop the likes of cars that run on Bio fuel.

It is very important that we dont rely on one form of Bio fuel or alternative energy source if we do we will find ourselvs in the situation that we are in now the only differnce is that a bio fuel or alternative source of energy will take the place of oil.

ThichHeaded

posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 11:01 PM

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Originally posted by soficrow
Agreed matrix.

But obviously, there's no real profit in it, or else it would be rolling. So how do we jumpstart the waste-into-fuel industry?

The hell there isn't any profit in BioDiesel.

Look you pay about 2.50 for gas now.. depending on where you live.

You can make your own biodiesel for about 50 cents to 1 buck American.

So your saving are between 1.50 and 2 bucks. I would call that profit to start off. cause you aren't sucking it down in gas. Plus Biodiesel is really good mpg. a SUV can get about 40 mpg.

So it has its benefits also.

I made a post about biodiesel.

High Gas, So What. Lets Talk Biodiesel

[edit on 9/22/2006 by ThichHeaded]

MBF

posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 11:28 PM

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Originally posted by xpert11
Jeffrey McNeely is an chief scientist with IUCN, the World Conservation Union he has written an opinion piece that points out some of the lesser known ways that bio fuels will effect the environment.

news.bbc.co.uk
However, biofuels - made by producing ethanol, an alcohol fuel made from maize, sugar cane, or other plant matter - may be a penny wise but pound foolish way of doing so.

Consider the following:

* The grain required to fill the petrol tank of a Range Rover with ethanol is sufficient to feed one person per year. Assuming the petrol tank is refilled every two weeks, the amount of grain required would feed a hungry African village for a year.

If you use corn or most other crops to produce the ethanol, there is a by product such as distillers grain that has feed value. In fact the protien content of the distillers grain is higher than that of the corn. extra DIV

xpert11

posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 11:53 PM

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MBF Im not sure where your coming from do you mean that the distillers grain has momentary value or value in terms of the fact that there are other uses once the grain has been processed ?

MBF

posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 12:28 AM

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Originally posted by xpert11
MBF Im not sure where your coming from do you mean that the distillers grain has momentary value or value in terms of the fact that there are other uses once the grain has been processed ?

YES! I went to a couple of meetings because they want to build an ethanol plant in our area and they want the area farmers to be involved. Not only do these ethanol plants produce ethanol, but also there are by products of the process. The corn used does not all turn into ethanol. The unused portion of the grain is distillers grain and has a higher protien content than the corn, also CO2 is produced which is used to produce the carbonated water used in soft drinks.

MBF

posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 12:34 AM

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The figures that I have in front of me are for the returns for 1 bushel of corn with a value of $3.11.

Ethanol sales value $5.101
Dried Distillers grain value $.974
CO2 sales $.081

solidshot

posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 03:08 AM

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Bio fuels will not be the total answer to our future energy needs, for instance we will need to find a way to heat our homes and replace heating oil as well, one answer to this would be to get farmers to fit Methane digesters on to their farms, these use animal waste and turn it into methane which could then be sold and used for heating as well as a money spinner for the farmers? methane digesters

We will also have to use fuel cell technologies in our vehicles alongside bio fuels.

Long Lance

posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 02:29 PM

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Crops are raised with a prodigious amount of fertilizer.

How do you think fertilizers are made ? fossile fuels. just for the record.

Methane derived from all sorts of waste is still very valuable for use with farming equipment in case of breakdown.

sal88

posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 02:40 PM

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is using straight/refined waste vegetable oil with a modified car the best way then?

All Seeing Eye

posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 04:33 PM

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This is really a silly argument. No one is saying its okay to destroy virgin land. We have pleanty of open spaces already to plant the crops. Take all the land the gov is paying the farmers not to grow, and grow bio crops. We cant control what other countries are doing, only try to influence them to use the space already available. The urban blight is a good place to start.

MBF

posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 09:51 PM

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Many acres of crops are destroyed every year that could be used to make fuel. Most crops that we grow have become unprofitable, so why not divert these acres to produce fuel? Even if we can't supply all of our needs, every gallon of fuel that we produce is one less that we have to import from somewhere else.

Matyas

posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 07:02 AM

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Originally posted by xpert11...Nuclear power has its limiteds as do other alternative means of producing engery for example Im not sure if we will ever see the likes of Nuclear powered cars.

We have not even begun to touch the limits of nuclear power. Not even begun.

ALL, and I say ALL energy needs will be solved for Earth and humanity for eternity when we begin to use Nuclear Power!

Long Lance

posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 10:47 AM

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Originally posted by MBF
Many acres of crops are destroyed every year that could be used to make fuel. Most crops that we grow have become unprofitable, so why not divert these acres to produce fuel?

You really ought to value food more, there is an old thread of mine on the very subject, in case you're interested. In short, food is more than just fuel, it contains lots of trace minerals (which we already short on) which are essential for life yet severely depleted. blowing our last nutrients through a car's exhaust doesn't look very smart, does it?

If a crop is unprofitable, chances are it's being overproduced, introducing biofuels via subsidies does nothing to correct the situation, it aggravates it. Same for (subsidized) organic waste disposal, if you artificially generate demand for something it will be produced no matter how damaging on the long run, demand for waste means more waste and the correct answer to the problem of waste is to reduce its volumes, which frees capacity.

xpert11

posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 07:30 PM

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Originally posted by Matyas

We have not even begun to touch the limits of nuclear power. Not even begun.

ALL, and I say ALL energy needs will be solved for Earth and humanity for eternity when we begin to use Nuclear Power!

Arent you getting a bit carried away ?
For example wouldnt it be more economical if small isolated communities used other methods to generate electricity ?
Surely in some cases it would it would be cheaper to install the likes of solor panels or wind turbines rather then run power lines from the distant Nuclear power plant.

Nuclear power has its place but it dosnt tackle motor vehicles the biggest users of oil.

MBF

posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 11:13 PM

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Originally posted by Long Lance

You really ought to value food more, there is an old thread of mine on the very subject, in case you're interested. In short, food is more than just fuel, it contains lots of trace minerals (which we already short on) which are essential for life yet severely depleted. blowing our last nutrients through a car's exhaust doesn't look very smart, does it?

I do value food. I hate to see so much wasted when it could be put to use. I enjoyed reading your thread and agree with most of it. The production of ethanol doesn't use any trace elements in the the fuel itself, only carbon,hydrogen and oxygen.

If a crop is unprofitable, chances are it's being overproduced, introducing biofuels via subsidies does nothing to correct the situation, it aggravates it. Same for (subsidized) organic waste disposal, if you artificially generate demand for something it will be produced no matter how damaging on the long run, demand for waste means more waste and the correct answer to the problem of waste is to reduce its volumes, which frees capacity.

It is the standard saying among us farmers that if just one pound or bushel of a crop is produced in a year, that crop has been overproduced. It is just their excuse to get the crops we produce for nearly nothing. The reason that we receive subsudies is to keep us in buisness. This country wants CHEAP food. If you want to make a farmer mad just take him into a grocery store.