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1938 - Germany - all over again?

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posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 09:18 AM
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Please read this story and explain to me why the nations of the European Union are sitting on their hands while Iran continues to build up its arms and its leaders spew the kind of rhetoric we hear from its puppet leaders. Just consider the language...lightning response (blitzkrieg), fatherland, contempt for the Jews. The similarities with pre WWII Germany is almost unbelievable to me. I can understand China and Russia's positions, they both believe they will benefit from a conflict between the middle eastern extremists and the west. But how many times will Europe stand by while aggressors tear the continent apart?




posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 10:03 AM
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The parallels only exist in the minds of people looking for an excuse for war.

Iran is not annexing chunks of it's neighbors or invading them.
Iran is not building up a massive military capable of taking over the continent.
Iran is not pumping out antisemitic rhetoric, despite claims to the contrary - it's been highly critical of the State of Israel, but hasn't called for anyone's extermination - contrary to the propaganda certain parties are producing.

For clarification, read here.



Iran President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said he is not an anti-Semite.
"Jews are respected by everyone, by all human beings," he told a news conference at the United Nations headquarters in New York.
...
"No, I am not anti-Jew," he said. "I respect them very much."

"Let us remember that there in Palestine there are Muslims, Christians and Jews who live together," he said.

Later, he added: "We love everyone in the world - Jews, Christians, Muslims, non-Muslims, non-Jews, non-Christians... We are against occupation, aggression, killings and displacing people - otherwise we have no problem with ordinary people."


Quite a far cry from Hitler's rhetoric circa 1938.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 10:31 AM
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I heartily agree with xmotex. Although many on ATS will disagree with me I believe that we need to take a posture of 'innocent until proven guilty'. Things have changed immensely since the ramp-up days to WWII. The ability for nations (especially the USA) to project massive military power quickly is a modern reality.

The fearmongering and antagonization in which the US is currently engaged is doing nothing to help the internation situation. It has severely damaged our reputation, credibility and international alliances. It has to stop.

IF Iran develops the technology to develop nuclear weapons it's not as if they're going to be able to pop them out like Pez (remember, we've had a 60 year headstart developing our nuuclear engineering infrastructure). A handful of nukes is not going to obliterate any country. But you can rest assured that we have enough to do the job IF Iran were to ever use or threaten to use nukes. Do you honestly think Iran doesn't know this?

Innocent until PROVEN guilty. And I don't mean the half-assed 'proof' that we conjured-up about Iraq.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 10:37 AM
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Indeed, iran is simply not as blatantly aggressive as the nazis.

On the other hand, i recall the story of a holocaust surivor who was asked something like, what did the whole thing tell him, and his response was, in paraphrase
"When someone says they are coming to kill you, beleive them."



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 10:42 AM
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Xmotex,

I understand your thinly veiled assertion. I am not looking for an excuse for war. Indeed, I'm hoping the leaders and diplomats of Europe will wake up and take a firm position with regard to Irans obvious quest for nuclear weapons. If they would join with the US and Britain and insist on real sanctions and isolation of Iran until their nuclear program became completely transparent, Iran would not pose any real threat, and war would be averted.

The appeasement of the extremists is an exact parallel to the treatment of Hitler through the late 1930s

[edit on 9/22/2006 by darkbluesky]



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 10:48 AM
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Hitler was a megalomaniac with dillusions of a riech that would last 1,000 years.

Mahmudienijeid and Khammeni believe the hidden Imam is among us or will be soon and they must prepare.

Iran doesnt need to have the power to win a large scale continetal or global war, just the ability to start one.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 11:19 AM
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Well I didn't mean to accuse you personally, I'm simply tired of the fearmongering.

Iran is hardly my favorite government in the world, however the "OMG Iran will destroy us all!" panic is tiring, and is being used as a tool by those who want a war.

I am also extremely skeptical about the "Iran nuclear crisis" - it's very clear Iran wants to master nuclear technology, IMHO for nationalistic reasons on the other hand I haven't see anything but suppositions about a weapons program. They don't seem anywhere close to producing a bomb, and all the panic seems unwartranted.

Remember everyone in 2003 was absolutely convinced Saddam had an active nuclear weapons program, despite the fact that the inspectors kept saying they found nothing. We invaded because we didn't trust the inspections, and guess what we found? Nothing.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 01:51 PM
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The inspectors never said that there was no weapons program, nuke, chem, bio, or otherwise. They were charged with verifying that the programs had been dismantled, they said that they can't.

Then, after the war, we found weapons caches, admintedly old ones, that the inspectors couldn't find. We even found a camoflauged chemical plant, in Najaf, where the inspectors had been, but never noticed it.

IF the inspectors beleived that there was no weapons program, they never said it. And later revelations have shown that they weren't in any position to be able to tell.

Similarly, people said of germany, that there was nothing showing that they were infact dedicated to launching a larger war, despite the fact that they were building up their weapons stockpile, whihc in itself would've been fine, BUT IT WAS MADE ILLEGAL BY INTERNATIOAL AGREEMENTS. Just like its illegal for Iraq to have not demonstrated that it destroyed its weapons programs, and just like its illegal for Iran to not cooperate fully with the IAEA.

If people had recognized that problems back before the war, such as the election of a radical to supreme power, the breakdown of civil society, the establishment of a thuggish government, calls for the destruction of their neighbhors, and an inability to demonstrate in some verifiable way that they weren't infact arming for war, then we wouldn't've had a "World War II".

Instead, people then, like now, don't accept that you can have a 'pre-emptive' war, or don't beleive that people who say that they want to kill you actually mean it.

[edit on 22-9-2006 by Nygdan]



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 02:08 PM
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1938 Germany is indeed representing itself before us on the world stage... but not the way you see it.

From my perspective it is more like America is the new Nazi Germany.

We are persecuting an entire race of people for the actions of 19 terrorists.

We have a striking similarity between the events of 911 and the PATRIOT ACT I & II... and the Reichstag fire and the Enabling Act of 1933

Germany had the Fatherland... we have Homeland

the Germans had concentration camps... we have detainment facilities

The germans invaded other nations... We invaded two nations that had nothing to do with 911. With more on the Horizon.

So If us calling Iran 'Nazis' is not the kettle calling the pot black... then I dont know what is.

Iran is no saint by any means... but it is a much closer comparison to liken our current policies to 1938 Germany than to try to compare Iran.

[edit on 9/22/2006 by TONE23]



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 02:14 PM
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.


Nukes are old news, and so is this:



US begins building treaty-breaching germ war defence centre 31 Jul 2006 Construction work has begun near Washington on a vast germ warfare laboratory intended to help protect the US against an attack with biological weapon, but critics say the laboratory's work will violate international law and its extreme secrecy will exacerbate a biological arms race. The centre will have to produce and stockpile the world's most lethal bacteria and viruses, which is forbidden by the 1972 Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention.

U.S. biodefense lab raises concerns 30 Jul 2006 The Bush regime is building a massive biodefense laboratory in Maryland that will simulate [stimulate?] calamitous bioterrorism attacks, it was reported Sunday. But much of what the National Biodefense Analysis and Countermeasures Center in Fort Detrick, Md., does may never be publicly known because the White House intends to operate the facility largely in secret, the Washington Post reported. In an unusual arrangement, the building itself will be classified as "highly restricted space," the newspaper said. Not even nuclear labs operate with such secrecy.

The Secretive Fight Against (For) Bioterror --The government is building a highly classified facility to research biological weapons, but its closed-door approach has raised concerns. 30 Jul 2006 On the grounds of a military base an hour's drive from the capital, the Bush regime is building a massive biodefense laboratory unlike any seen since biological weapons were banned 34 years ago.




Public health in Iraq, Iran and other nations in the war-torn area already took a real beating - mainly from radioactivity.

Now, the whole mess is going to get real complicated, speaking microbiologically.





And oh yeah, check it out: Bushkreig: Shock and Awe in America



ed for sp, addlink

[edit on 22-9-2006 by soficrow]



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by TONE23
1938 Germany is indeed representing itself before us on the world stage... but not the way you see it.

From my perspective it is more like America is the new Nazi Germany.

We are persecuting an entire race of people for the actions of 19 terrorists.



Where is the persecution? What rights have been taken away from anyone, or punishment been inflicted due soley to ones race/religion or more precisely their political/religious fervor?


We have a striking similarity between the events of 911 and the PATRIOT ACT I & II... and the Reichstag fire and the Enabling Act of 1933


cant respond - not familiar with these events


Germany had the Fatherland... we have Homeland


as pointed out in my first post - the Iranian VP was using the term fatherland in his address - side note - I admit the repeated use of terms and phrases is fairly insignificant.


the Germans had concentration camps... we have detainment facilities


We do, and they are populated with battlefield combatants and known terrorist leaders, not with innocent men women and children who are incarcerated due only to their heritage and religion. Furthermore these combatants are treated humanely - not gased, burned and dumped in mass graves.


The germans invaded other nations... We invaded two nations that had nothing to do with 911. With more on the Horizon.


Afghanistan - ruled by the Taliban who sheltered Al Queada who was responsible for the death of 3,000 innocents in 2 hrs on 9/11/01, who killed hundreds of innocents in US embassies in Africa, who attacked a US Naval vessel in Yemen, etc

Iraq - the stated reason for invading Iraq was its continued failure to comply with UN resolutions requiring complete unfettered access for weapons inspections.



[edit on 9/22/2006 by darkbluesky]

[edit on 9/22/2006 by darkbluesky]

[edit on 9/22/2006 by darkbluesky]



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 03:25 PM
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Tone 23 - Just wanted to add...GREAT Avatar



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 03:51 PM
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original quote by: darkbluesky
Where is the persecution? What rights have been taken away from anyone, or punishment been inflicted due soley to ones race/religion or more precisely thier politcal/religious fervor?


The persecution is the over 14,000 people being held without any rights to representation... almost alll of them muslim. I am not saying it is necc. a racial focus.. but look at it.. most people see a muslim in this country and have a sort of distain right from the start.. The racism is building. The persecution comes from their lack of representation while they sit in secret prisons for god knows how long and can have god knows what done to them. And, yes, there are many that get caught up that are infact innocent. There was a survey done recently that found that the govt. is only successful 9% of the time in prosocution of terrorist suspects...9%. That means that 91% of the time the govt. has gotten it wrong... doesnt leave much room for arguement.


original quote by: darkbluesky
Afghanistan - ruled by the Taliban who sheltered Al Queada who was responsible for the death of 3,000 innocents in 2 hrs on 9/11/01, who killed hundereds on innocents in US embassies in Africa, who attacked a US Naval vessel in Yemen, etc


On this you have a valid point... but that logic is only the tip of the iceburg as to why we invaded Afghanistan... the biggest reasons were restoring the heroin trade that the Taliban was decimating(The CIA just couldnt have that) and the other REAL reason we invaded Afghanistan is the oil pipeline that the Taliban were against.. if you search it you can find readily that the oil pipeline is now being built... if its not finished already.




original quote by: darkbluesky
Iraq - the stated reason for invading Iraq was its continued failure to comply with UN resolutions requiring complete unfettered access for weapons inspections.


yes those were the stated reasons which most of which turned out to be false.. if not outright lying. One of the biggest reasons was that Saddam wanted his oil for food money to be paid in euro not US dollars... big no no to the American hegemony. While it is a completely valid reason in our govts. eyes... it would never win over the public. hence WMD scares had to be implimented to cajole the people into backing this atrocious war of lies.



original quote by:darkbluesky
Tone 23 - Just wanted to add...GREAT Avatar


thanks but it was JAK(Moderator) who helped me build it...


But as far as comparing iran to Germany or the US to Germany of 1938... I am ashamed to say that we tread alot closer to that line than they do. But that is my opinion and my opinion only... it is not fact..


I appreciate the good discussion, sorry if I have side tracked alittle too far.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 04:01 PM
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Always enjoy a good debate. Looking forward to the next one.
Out.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by darkbluesky
Xmotex,

I understand your thinly veiled assertion. I am not looking for an excuse for war. Indeed, I'm hoping the leaders and diplomats of Europe will wake up and take a firm position with regard to Irans obvious quest for nuclear weapons. If they would join with the US and Britain and insist on real sanctions and isolation of Iran until their nuclear program became completely transparent, Iran would not pose any real threat, and war would be averted.

The appeasement of the extremists is an exact parallel to the treatment of Hitler through the late 1930s

[edit on 9/22/2006 by darkbluesky]


Really? thats not the impression I get at all. More so on the Flip side, the US govt Lying and it people believing the administrations lies sounds more Pre 1930s Germany. Running around the world targeting people even their very own people. Changing the constitution, ridding of Freedom, all for what fear is to bring, Security, investments, oil?



posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 12:52 PM
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by Dark_Raven

Really? thats not the impression I get at all. More so on the Flip side, the US govt Lying and it people believing the administrations lies sounds more Pre 1930s Germany. Running around the world targeting people even their very own people. Changing the constitution, ridding of Freedom, all for what fear is to bring, Security, investments, oil?



Sorry, I have no control over how you percieve or interpret my comments. I can assure you I hope and pray the battles already underway are over as soon as possible and that no more are to follow.

So we can debate the issue, please cite examples of your allegations of;

1. US Govt. lying
2. Running around the world "targeting people" even our own...and please clarify your use and meaning of "targeting"
3. Changing the constitution? There have been no revisions or amendments to our Constitution.
4. Ridding of freedoms? - I am a US citizen and I can assure you not one of my freedoms has been restricted in any way...in fact I can go to any doctor I choose, whenever I choose, and pay however I choose, can you?




Dark-Raven, I'll give you the befefit of doubt for now in hopes we can have a meaningful exchange, but I must say you sound to me, a bit like someone who just hates my country.



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