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the problem of hell

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posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 10:13 PM
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don't know what it is?

well, i didn't come across this theological conundrum until a few months ago (well, at least the name for it)

in the christian tradition, hell is a place of INFINITE punishment

man can only commit finite sins (with some wacky exceptions that i spent a good 3 hours discussing with some friends)

so why does hell give such disproportionate punishment?




posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 10:21 PM
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I'm sure it's not too dispraportionate for everyone. I'm sure Hitler being beaten with an infinite amount of cactuses and Jim Jones being forced to drink an infinite amount of Amonia flavoured Kool-Aid is quite fair.



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 10:25 PM
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The idea of an eternal hell came about much later on when the church decided to remove the concept of "spirit" from the body and soul etc. This gave them the ability to scare people into accepting that if they do not do as they are told (by the church), they are to spend an eternity in hell. The early Gnosis Christians like the Essenes and the Cathari never accpeted the ide of an eternal hell.

For no man can be in any hell that he does not already accept at the present moment and those that preach of eternal hell simply do not understand that they blasphemy the Father by making such claims.



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 10:37 PM
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Would not the concept of Hell have to, by definition, be a place of "Unimaginable" suffering?

Anything less and you defeat the purpose of the concept.

If you believe in Hell, then you have to accept that it was created by the same entity that created every thing else. That being said, understanding the place is going to be as difficult as understanding any other portion of the cosmos. In other words, impossible.

If you accept that God is the creator, then by faith you accept that his "Being" is so far beyond the mortal coil as to render our faculties useless in the scheme of understanding the principles that truly surround the after life.

Our sins do appear finite to us, that is because we are only capable of thinking in finite terms. There is no way to truly know if our sins are finite to God. Perhaps they are of infinite pain to one that cared enough to create us?

Semper



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 06:30 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
don't know what it is?

well, i didn't come across this theological conundrum until a few months ago (well, at least the name for it)

in the christian tradition, hell is a place of INFINITE punishment

man can only commit finite sins (with some wacky exceptions that i spent a good 3 hours discussing with some friends)

so why does hell give such disproportionate punishment?


Hi m.i.m.s/

Infinite Punishment comes after Judgement day!
It is not Infinite now, for those that have passed away,for those that have already died before Judgement day, it is not a done deal as of yet!........that which is 'infinite',which will happen at the end of the world and has not yet happened.
Therefore infinite for now is not known to each mans place of future .......Punishment for those with unrepented sins is up to God.....
Quote///
"Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels," will say the Lord on the day of Judgment. "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Mt. 25:41-46).

Depending on ones own sins, that is what you will have as punishment for eternity.....each person differs to another and so each will receive unto what is their just reward, as would the rightous and the sinners.
Just as QUOTE/// "In my Father's house are many mansions … God will give to everyone according to his deeds … There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory" (Is. 64:4; 1 Cor. 2:9; John 14:2, Mt. 16:27, 1 Cor. 3:8, 15:41).
Link to QUOTE

When the Dead shall rise, The Universal Resurrection of the dead.(there is another thread,I believe,on the subject)

Man committs sin every day!
Man will fall many times in ones lifetime......we simply get up and keep getting up.
Man is also capable of getting up and moving on with their life and changing for the better of themselves and their own being.


What did Jesus Christ say?
''Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me'' (Mark 8:34).
This means that one will have many worries in life and many obstacles to face, but we must bear with it if one is to follow Him..........Humility is the way to enter Heaven, and this does not happen overnight.
This is all to easy for those that deny everything(Monks and Pious people)but for everyone else, it is a constant ongoing process that each one of us must face.....beginning with small steps toward rightousness and accepting that all will not be lost, if we have Faith, Hope and Love.


Hey Semp!


Would not the concept of Hell have to, by definition, be a place of "Unimaginable" suffering?

Yes it would be,''Unimaginable suffering'', I would think!
The suffering one would experience will be that of a small child who has lost a father?
God breathed into Adam( The first man)and gave him life, a Soul,
Would not that Soul only wish to return to it's creator?

helen



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 06:45 AM
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HEY THERE HELEN!!!!

Yes, and the truly magnificent part of it all is that no matter how much we sin, all it takes it one act to "make it all better."

All you have to do is ask, and it is all forgiven.

Pretty wonderful huh???

Semper



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 07:00 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
HEY THERE HELEN!!!!

Yes, and the truly magnificent part of it all is that no matter how much we sin, all it takes it one act to "make it all better."

All you have to do is ask, and it is all forgiven.

Pretty wonderful huh???

Semper


Hey Semp!

hmmm,
Asking for forgiveness takes guts!
Many do not want to lower themselves and ask for forgiveness, others, I suppose feel it is all lost and do nothing.
It's like saying sorry for a mistake and admitting to it.
No one can help you if you don't ask for help.

so yeh!

later semp....
helen
EDIT.....spelling)

[edit on 9/22/2006 by helen670]



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 05:04 PM
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Infinite Punishment comes after Judgement day!


Judgement Day is now - and every moment that we breath and what we do now, we shall so reap what we sow. But Infinite Punishment is not a reality - evil exists yes but it is not a reality as no soul can suffer infinitely beyond any law of Karma.

Even the most unclean of personalities can will eventually return back home and no soul is ever lost that chooses to return. No grim reaper awaits you and all your errors or sins.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by Cinosamitna
The idea of an eternal hell came about much later on when the church decided to remove the concept of "spirit" from the body and soul etc. This gave them the ability to scare people into accepting that if they do not do as they are told (by the church), they are to spend an eternity in hell. The early Gnosis Christians like the Essenes and the Cathari never accpeted the ide of an eternal hell.

For no man can be in any hell that he does not already accept at the present moment and those that preach of eternal hell simply do not understand that they blasphemy the Father by making such claims.





True indeed.

The Buddhist Hell(in which there are 18 Hells, perhaps 2 divisions of each of the 9 Klipothic Spheres that Dante wrote about) is only a place of purification, not an Eternal place.

The same can be said of the Gnostic teachings regarding Hell/Klipoth(therefore the original Christian teachings).





Originally posted by helen670
Infinite Punishment comes after Judgement day!

It is not Infinite now, for those that have passed away,for those that have already died before Judgement day, it is not a done deal as of yet!........that which is 'infinite',which will happen at the end of the world and has not yet happened.




Hell could NEVER be Inifinite.

Only GOD is Infinite.

God is ONE and has no partners(a teaching that is not in contradiction to the Esoteric Monistic-Pantheism found in all authentic Religions).

To say that hell is also Infinite is to blaspheme.




Qur'an


"It has already been revealed to you and to those who have gone
before you, that if you associate partners with Allah, your works would
be annulled and you will be among the losers."




Meaning that one who does not strive to see directly the Emptiness of all phenomena, or the Emptiness of self and other; such a one will not strive for Perfection, and is therefore headed for the Second Death or the purification process of the Hell Realms or Klipoth.




"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." - Matthew 5:48





If the Christian Gospels say that hell is Eternal, then it is obviously a mistranslation, symbolic(which I doubt), or an addition to the original texts.

And we know what happens to those who lie, by adding things to the Gospels that were never meant(see previous quote from the Qur'an).




Regards



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
don't know what it is?

well, i didn't come across this theological conundrum until a few months ago (well, at least the name for it)

in the christian tradition, hell is a place of INFINITE punishment

man can only commit finite sins (with some wacky exceptions that i spent a good 3 hours discussing with some friends)

so why does hell give such disproportionate punishment?


Because the sin is against the Eternal HOLY God. You view sin, as many do, as something to measure. Your view, as well as many others, is based on a finite and limited mind that canot comprehend fully what it means to be HOLY and then wrap your mind around Eternity.

Many may state "Gods Love is Eternal" yet they do not think deeply enough that Gods Wrath and Righteousness are also Eternal. So His reward is Eternal and likewise His Wrath is also.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 07:34 PM
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Many may state "Gods Love is Eternal" yet they do not think deeply enough that Gods Wrath and Righteousness are also Eternal. So His reward is Eternal and likewise His Wrath is also?


Does God need to express any wrath? The good Gods have placed such conditions whereby, we are at times "burned" when we disobey these Laws. The idea is that God is punishing us by making us suffer when we disobey his laws. Yet the fallen ones are wanting man to be able to do whatever they so choose - but having no consequences! So the Good God's placed divine laws and are not wrathful as such, yet they allow us to choose to folllow the laws or not. If even when we suffer, we do not truly go astray because the evil Gods would rather we go astray by never having any consequences and that means they attempt to subvert God's plan for us. Now many people see suffering as suggesting "God's Wrath" but is it really Wrath, or is it more-so a Great Love that he has allowed us to suffer KNOWING fully that this will teach us to become super-self aware etc?

Now, of course Mercy comes into play also and some can be forgiven - others human beings can even take upon themselves some of the Karma of the other person - a true act of self-sacrifice and Mercy. If man can do this blessed act, cannot our Father do it also without Wrath? Regardless, sometimes only through suffering can we learn to correct our mistakes.

[edit on 22-9-2006 by Cinosamitna]



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by Cinosamitna

Many may state "Gods Love is Eternal" yet they do not think deeply enough that Gods Wrath and Righteousness are also Eternal. So His reward is Eternal and likewise His Wrath is also?


Does God need to express any wrath? The good Gods have placed such conditions whereby, we are at times "burned" when we disobey these Laws. The idea is that God is punishing us by making us suffer when we disobey his laws. Yet the fallen ones are wanting man to be able to do whatever they so choose - but having no consequences! So the Good God's placed divine laws and are not wrathful as such, yet they allow us to choose to folllow the laws or not. If even when we suffer, we do not truly go astray because the evil Gods would rather we go astray by never having any consequences and that means they attempt to subvert God's plan for us. Now many people see suffering as suggesting "God's Wrath" but is it really Wrath, or is it more-so a Great Love that he has allowed us to suffer KNOWING fully that this will teach us to become super-self aware etc?

Now, of course Mercy comes into play also and some can be forgiven - others human beings can even take upon themselves some of the Karma of the other person - a true act of self-sacrifice and Mercy. If man can do this blessed act, cannot our Father do it also without Wrath? Regardless, sometimes only through suffering can we learn to correct our mistakes.

[edit on 22-9-2006 by Cinosamitna]


This makes no sense to me. You speak of "gods" and "karma". There is only One God and He does not operate within karma for it is self-contradictory.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 08:16 PM
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This makes no sense to me. You speak of "gods" and "karma". There is only One God and He does not operate within karma for it is self-contradictory


God's - can be considered like the various Principalities, Thrones, Archangels etc. "And God said let Us Create man...etc" in Genesis. Who was He speaking to other than the other God's being the Creators or the Archangels? Before the Word was spelled "God", there were many expression of God writen as Alaha, Atonai, Ellohim, El-Shaddai etc. These names were GOD but explained the differences between Jehovah, or the Archangel's or the Logos (Christ) or God the Father etc. As for God being ONE - he is "ONE" yet in his multiplicity he appears as many. Not Multiple but "multiplicity", as there is a huge difference and the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) offers one example of the multiplicity.

God's or Ego-Souls are not affected by karma - but if they are enslaved as personalities than they shall see the effects of Karma. This is why we must know the differences between the personality and the Ego. A human personality that has not yet contacted his own Monad-Ego Soul will be under the laws of Karma but not forever. God created karma and He is not bound to it, as Christ called us all Gods in the Bible (before the church removed it) and He said we would one day do as He has done.

[edit on 22-9-2006 by Cinosamitna]



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 08:23 PM
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You are a unbeliever and you are telling me the nature of God?

God is ONE but he shares His glory with no one or nothing. So again there are no "gods". Everything in the universe is created by God therefore there are no equals to God.

Angels are not gods but are creations of God. God is still God with or without angels to worship Him.

Again, karma is contradictory therefore it cannot stand. Why do you wish to believe in something so contradictory? Before you tell me about the Trinity you need to first express what the Trinity is, as in define it. Just what does the Trinity express about the nature of God?



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 08:41 PM
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Originally posted by UnrealZA
You are a unbeliever and you are telling me the nature of God?

God is ONE but he shares His glory with no one or nothing. So again there are no "gods". Everything in the universe is created by God therefore there are no equals to God.

Angels are not gods but are creations of God. God is still God with or without angels to worship Him.

Again, karma is contradictory therefore it cannot stand. Why do you wish to believe in something so contradictory? Before you tell me about the Trinity you need to first express what the Trinity is, as in define it. Just what does the Trinity express about the nature of God?


Well Unreal, I never thought of myself as an unbeliever but perhaps you are correct because once you can understand the relative truth, you no longer have to depend upon merely "belief" in something and you can start to KNOW. Now if the various Archangels are the creators, than are they not also doing something that only a God' can do? Most people mistake God the Father for their own personal Guardian Archangel but I do not think that God gets too upset about it (having all those prayers lost), since I'm sure He understands our errors better than we do.

But to define Trinity the question is, which one? Osisis, Isis, and Horus? Just kidding, I don't plan to upset you but Christ is God; yet Christ is also considered the "Son". That's fairly clear isn't it? Christ is God yet ONE with the Father and also Christ is the Logos. The Holy Spirit being the Will-pleasure aspect, or sometimes referred to as a feminie aspect. Now consider that Muslims have a difficult time understanding multiplicity like many people do and could thsi be why Prophet Mohammed at times saw Christians as sort-of Pagans and he continued to keep on saying "there is only one Allah"?

Why are you so upset over Karma? Cause and effect is pretty obvious isn't it? Let's use an analogy here:

Let's say you consider yourself a Christian and pray every day and night yet you still continue to do crimes, what might you think would eventually happen? Do think it possible that may be you might suffer some Karmic consequence of your actions? Would that be that God has never heard your prayer, or is it that may be only a consequence of violating God's Laws? I'm not saying God may not intervene and help relief Karma but the Father is not mocked and for everything you so sow, ye shall so reap. That is Karma.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by Cinosamitna

Originally posted by UnrealZA
You are a unbeliever and you are telling me the nature of God?

God is ONE but he shares His glory with no one or nothing. So again there are no "gods". Everything in the universe is created by God therefore there are no equals to God.

Angels are not gods but are creations of God. God is still God with or without angels to worship Him.

Again, karma is contradictory therefore it cannot stand. Why do you wish to believe in something so contradictory? Before you tell me about the Trinity you need to first express what the Trinity is, as in define it. Just what does the Trinity express about the nature of God?


Well Unreal, I never thought of myself as an unbeliever but perhaps you are correct because once you can understand the relative truth, you no longer have to depend upon merely "belief" in something and you can start to KNOW. Now if the various Archangels are the creators, than are they not also doing something that only a God' can do? Most people mistake God the Father for their own personal Guardian Archangel but I do not think that God gets too upset about it (having all those prayers lost), since I'm sure He understands our errors better than we do.

But to define Trinity the question is, which one? Osisis, Isis, and Horus? Just kidding, I don't plan to upset you but Christ is God; yet Christ is also considered the "Son". That's fairly clear isn't it? Christ is God yet ONE with the Father and also Christ is the Logos. The Holy Spirit being the Will-pleasure aspect, or sometimes referred to as a feminie aspect. Now consider that Muslims have a difficult time understanding multiplicity like many people do and could thsi be why Prophet Mohammed at times saw Christians as sort-of Pagans and he continued to keep on saying "there is only one Allah"?

Why are you so upset over Karma? Cause and effect is pretty obvious isn't it? Let's use an analogy here:

Let's say you consider yourself a Christian and pray every day and night yet you still continue to do crimes, what might you think would eventually happen? Do think it possible that may be you might suffer some Karmic consequence of your actions? Would that be that God has never heard your prayer, or is it that may be only a consequence of violating God's Laws? I'm not saying God may not intervene and help relief Karma but the Father is not mocked and for everything you so sow, ye shall so reap. That is Karma.


First, truth is not relative but Absolute. To deny that affirms it. To believe that truth is relative for everyone, everywhere is to contradict yourself for then it would become an Absolute. It would then be that truth is "absolutely" relative for everyone which is self defeating. This is why you affirm Absolute Truth when you seek to deny it.

Second, archangels are NOT the creators of anything. God alone is the Creator. They are only creations.

Third, within the Trinity we have one God who reveals Himself in 3 Persons. God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. Co-Equal and Co-Eternal. One What and 3 Who's. Your definition is well on the way.

Fourth, you cannot define karma by using a Christian analogy for no where does God speak of or mention anything related to "karma". He does not use karma nor is He the author of it.

If karma where true then it would be the cruelist "thing" ever for you are expected to learn from it, one live to the next, yet you know nothing of your past life and what you need to "fix" in order to reach perfection.

In India, because of the caste system, the rich do not help the poor for fear that they may bring on karma. The poor are poor and wretched because of past lifes and to interfer with that would then bring negative karma upon the one seeking to help.

Karma fails also as a first principle for it has no valid "cause". In other words, what did the first person do in their former life to get karma started IF they had no former life being the FIRST person? Is karma eternal? This also fails for what is karma without creatures? For these, and many other reasons, karma is self-refuting.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 09:48 PM
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First, truth is not relative but Absolute. To deny that affirms it. To believe that truth is relative for everyone, everywhere is to contradict yourself for then it would become an Absolute. It would then be that truth is "absolutely" relative for everyone which is self defeating. This is why you affirm Absolute Truth when you seek to deny it.


In the 3'rd dimension we have the law of gravity. The truth is known to us as being relative in this dimension. But as we are also subjected relatively speaking to the laws of gravity, than we can not call gravity and Absolute Truth in the 4'th dimension, can we? So in terms of my analogy, I am referring to the idea that you and I can only come to know so much truth while still living inside a material (human) body. The Absolute Truth cannot ever be understood by a human being. But relativley speaking, I can start to KNOW more Truth instead off merely relying upon "blind faith", you see?


Second, archangels are NOT the creators of anything. God alone is the Creator. They are only creations.


"And let Us Create...." in Genesis.

So who was God speaking to then, to himself may be? Actually, yes, may be to himself and also to all the Archangels. But to claim God was merely speaking to himself and not also to the Archangel's (as co-creators) is a very simplistic understanding, don't you agree?


Third, within the Trinity we have one God who reveals Himself in 3 Persons. God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. Co-Equal and Co-Eternal. One What and 3 Who's. Your definition is well on the way.


Christ appeared to thousands of people at the same time - and as being super-aware of all his self's. Moses could appear in many placs but not at once like Christ, although Moses was advanced. The difference being that God can appear in "multiplicity". And you have just defined it above in another way.


Fourth, you cannot define karma by using a Christian analogy for no where does God speak of or mention anything related to "karma". He does not use karma nor is He the author of it.


Well, if you are referring to the Bible than you forgot about the reaping what you sow etc. There are many passages that can still be understood as being Karma but the direct language has been removed by the early Church Fathers - and that is not all they removed!


If karma where true then it would be the cruelist "thing" ever for you are expected to learn from it, one live to the next, yet you know nothing of your past life and what you need to "fix" in order to reach perfection.


You will remember your past lives but not yet. You cannot move forward by remembering your older personality but you do tend to bring forward your old tendacies and so we learn from mistakes and that's the Mercy of not having to remember until we are advanced enough to be able to handle it. Thats is why we must be careful we do not prematurely awaken this memory - as it has led many to insanity.


In India, because of the caste system, the rich do not help the poor for fear that they may bring on karma. The poor are poor and wretched because of past lifes and to interfer with that would then bring negative karma upon the one seeking to help.


The Vedas are barely a remnant of what the Great Sage Manu brought to the peoples so long ago. But the idea of Karma is not understood in the same fashion by all religions, or even within India. I have Hindi freinds who do not accept the caste systems - that is political based on ignorance and has nothing to do with the esoteric/gnosis Christian tradition of Karma.


Karma fails also as a first principle for it has no valid "cause". In other words, what did the first person do in their former life to get karma started IF they had no former life being the FIRST person? Is karma eternal? This also fails for what is karma without creatures? For these, and many other reasons, karma is self-refuting.


Karma is every second. The first Cause was the will-pleasure of God to express himself, inside himself. We humans are like Gods trapped in egoism. You cannot get away from karma and it will follow same - if you have murdered millions and then repented, expecting heaven - yes it shall come but not quite yet! Not until you have picked up your own cross an followed in Christ - prayer alone is not enough to enter heaven.



posted on Sep, 25 2006 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by UnrealZA
Because the sin is against the Eternal HOLY God. You view sin, as many do, as something to measure.




Of course it is measurable.

It is in the realm if relativity.

God is Infinite.

God works through the relative realms in order that they can exist, but She/He is also "outside" of these realms and is the Infinite Absolute.

To say that a sin could be Infinite is to assign partners with Allah(or Jehovah, Christ, Aleim/Elohim, etc.), which is punishable, because one who does not see the Oneness of God will inevitably commit sin.

Many transgressions can be forgiven(if repentance is completely sincere); the ones that cannot be forgiven, can(and must) be payed through suffering to the degree of the sin.

Kamaduro and Karmasaya(sins against the Holy Spirit) are sins related to fornication that cannot be forgiven, they must be payed for through pain and suffering.

But to say that any sin is Infinite is blasphemy.




Your view, as well as many others, is based on a finite and limited mind that canot comprehend fully what it means to be HOLY and then wrap your mind around Eternity.




I don't think anyone here is trying to totally comprehend The Infinite intellectually.

However, there are self-evident understandings we can have by law of analogy, regarding existence and its relationship to God; but I certainly don't claim to completely "know" the Infinite, intellectually or otherwise.

It is simply self-evident that any sin is measurable, as there is only One Immeasurable ONE.

Anything in the realm of movement and apparent separation is 'outside' the Absolute in a sense.

The Absolute is Infinite unconditioned Being without any form of division or relativity.

A sin is an action that creates a reaction that must inevitably return to the initiator of said action.

In the realm of relativity there is apparent dualism which makes way for action and reaction, and God does have a part in this; but in the Absolute there is no-thing; just "GOD", or Infinite Conscious Being, without any thought or any object of thought.

You can't defile the Eternal HOLY God, because SHE/HE is stainless.

So all sin must eventually dissolve(though after much pain in most cases).




Many may state "Gods Love is Eternal" yet they do not think deeply enough that Gods Wrath and Righteousness are also Eternal. So His reward is Eternal and likewise His Wrath is also.




Wrath is only something relative.

Because as I've already said; sin, pain, evil, hate, wrath, etc. are only finite things.

True that the wrath of God is not the same as the ignorant anger of humanoids, but the object of God's wrath must be impermanent(remember, only God is Eternal), so how could God have infinite wrath against something that is finite?




However, this doesn't mean that there is no hell.

Everybody pays what they owe.

Samael Aun Weor has taught that the Second Death is millions of times more bitter than bile, and that it is like a walk in park compared to the suffering that we could go through physically.

The Buddhists teach that one level hell consists of having molten metal poured into our mouths over and over.


Anyway...

Many self-proclaimed Christians may be very surprised to find, that they will eventually have to pay for Karmasaya and Kamaduro(fornication) regardless of how much they believe.





Regards





[edit on 25-9-2006 by Tamahu]



posted on Sep, 25 2006 @ 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by Tamahu

Originally posted by UnrealZA
Because the sin is against the Eternal HOLY God. You view sin, as many do, as something to measure.




Of course it is measurable.

It is in the realm if relativity.

God is Infinite.

God works through the relative realms in order that they can exist, but She/He is also "outside" of these realms and is the Infinite Absolute.

To say that a sin could be Infinite is to assign partners with Allah(or Jehovah, Christ, Aleim/Elohim, etc.), which is punishable, because one who does not see the Oneness of God will inevitably commit sin.

Many transgressions can be forgiven(if repentance is completely sincere); the ones that cannot be forgiven, can(and must) be payed through suffering to the degree of the sin.

Kamaduro and Karmasaya(sins against the Holy Spirit) are sins related to fornication that cannot be forgiven, they must be payed for through pain and suffering.

But to say that any sin is Infinite is blasphemy.




Your view, as well as many others, is based on a finite and limited mind that canot comprehend fully what it means to be HOLY and then wrap your mind around Eternity.




I don't think anyone here is trying to totally comprehend The Infinite intellectually.

However, there are self-evident understandings we can have by law of analogy, regarding existence and its relationship to God; but I certainly don't claim to completely "know" the Infinite, intellectually or otherwise.

It is simply self-evident that any sin is measurable, as there is only One Immeasurable ONE.

Anything in the realm of movement and apparent separation is 'outside' the Absolute in a sense.

The Absolute is Infinite unconditioned Being without any form of division or relativity.

A sin is an action that creates a reaction that must inevitably return to the initiator of said action.

In the realm of relativity there is apparent dualism which makes way for action and reaction, and God does have a part in this; but in the Absolute there is no-thing; just "GOD", or Infinite Conscious Being, without any thought or any object of thought.

You can't defile the Eternal HOLY God, because SHE/HE is stainless.

So all sin must eventually dissolve(though after much pain in most cases).




Many may state "Gods Love is Eternal" yet they do not think deeply enough that Gods Wrath and Righteousness are also Eternal. So His reward is Eternal and likewise His Wrath is also.




Wrath is only something relative.

Because as I've already said; sin, pain, evil, hate, wrath, etc. are only finite things.

True that the wrath of God is not the same as the ignorant anger of humanoids, but the object of God's wrath must be impermanent(remember, only God is Eternal), so how could God have infinite wrath against something that is finite?




However, this doesn't mean that there is no hell.

Everybody pays what they owe.

Samael Aun Weor has taught that the Second Death is millions of times more bitter than bile, and that it is like a walk in park compared to the suffering that we could go through physically.

The Buddhists teach that one level hell consists of having molten metal poured into our mouths over and over.


Anyway...

Many self-proclaimed Christians may be very surprised to find, that they will eventually have to pay for Karmasaya and Kamaduro(fornication) regardless of how much they believe.





Regards





[edit on 25-9-2006 by Tamahu]


Nothing stated here, although long, makes any sense. It is contradictory, time and time again I have stated why this type of world view is.

To state that we are in the realm of relativity is then an absolute. I will ask you, "Are you absolutely sure we are in the realm of relativity?" You will then proceed to reply with more mystic babble. No one can live a relativist lifestyle/worldview (or a moral relativistic lifestyle) for one minute. If you base your worldview on relativism then it fails, it crumbles.



posted on Sep, 25 2006 @ 08:41 PM
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Nothing stated here, although long, makes any sense. It is contradictory, time and time again I have stated why this type of world view is.

To state that we are in the realm of relativity is then an absolute. I will ask you, "Are you absolutely sure we are in the realm of relativity?" You will then proceed to reply with more mystic babble. No one can live a relativist lifestyle/worldview (or a moral relativistic lifestyle) for one minute. If you base your worldview on relativism then it fails, it crumbles.


UnrealZA,

I tend to agree with Tamahu here and I think you are misunderstanding based upon where you are standing on viewing the idea of somethng 'Absolute'. Now I do understand what you mean by 'Absolutes', as in God being 'Absolute'. However, we are also living in a material body and as such what may be true to the human intelect, may not be always true, Toto. I have to say, that the theory of relativity was incorrect because according to Einstine, everything is relative and if that were true, than we humans could be having heads and bodies that are 50 times as large as they are now - but all relativly in proportion! But obviously, something keeps us humans very tiny on this planet and our heads and bodies are not 50 times larger on this planet so this means that it is much more than something merely only relative.

But for example on the other hand: In the 4'Th dimension gravity is not necessarily what goes up, must come down. But if I were to say to you that it is true in our material world, than I'm sure you would agree with me that gravity is something that has an element of relative true, right? But if we are to ask someone living in the 4'th dimension about gravity, would they say I was incorrect?

So, it's not that God is 'not' Absolute (He Is) but it's our own comprehension of TRUTH itself that (once it passes through the human egoism) it becomes relative and not always Toto.

Cino



[edit on 25-9-2006 by Cinosamitna]




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