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Just What Would It Take For You To Believe The Opposite Story?

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posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 01:31 PM
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If you haven't seen these video's before Please watch them before commenting on me:
9/11 mysteries
Who Killed John Onneil

If you are open for new facts on 9/11 these video's will surely apply. These Are THE best ever made on the topic.

If you don't want to see these video's. Please stop discussing about this topic. Go on with your life. And hopefully one day your mind will be open for the truth.

If you're not willing to take the time to watch them, but you're willing to spend enough time to digg in to this forum and debunk everything you see on the topic.
Then you sure are a member of Bush's club. Is it Skull & Bones, Freemasons?
Do you visit the Bohemian Grove ones a year to play with your silly friends?
Or maybe the Bilderberg conference.

People are opening there eyes. Be aware!!!

Stop the ellite. Let the revolution begin !

Peace for all...




[edit on 22-9-2006 by buddhaLight]




posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by buddhaLight
If you haven't seen these video's before Please watch them before commenting on me:
9/11 mysteries
Who Killed John Onneil


Skeptic Overlord has a thread on this here.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I haven't got a chance to watch it yet.

But bL- What would it specifically take for you to change your mind?



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 02:42 PM
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All the govt. has to do to change my mind is release all the tapes... back up their 'science' and show me an ounce of transparency.... none of which has happened... and until they do I will continue to think the way I do. When they can explain why the 911 Commission was lied to. When they can tell me why noone was prosocuted from the insider trading.

And many many more question that the govt. either is unwilling to or is incapable of answering.
They bring the answers.... and I will gladly switch my position.... until then I am left with what my gut tells me(and countless hours of research)

But then again the govt. has been so honoest in the past.. so I guess they deserve my confidence here.... NOT!!!

And since our govt.ikes to treat us all as guilty until proven innocent... I figure I should reciprocate.

PROVE IT...Govt of the US.... Prove it!



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by Slap Nuts
I would have to:

- Lose 100 IQ points

This is just unncessary insult.

- Not read

I read. I also talk to people who actually DO the things I read about, that I haven't done. It's the reason that after the Police Academy, I was given a Training Officer for a year, to show me how things REALLY ARE, not just how they're SUPPOSED TO BE


- Become "uneducated", that is, forget physics, calc, etc...

Having a degree doesn't prove what you know. It proves what you are SUPPOSED to know. And don't forget how many scientists PROVED that it was IMPOSSIBLE to fly faster then the speed of sound, because the shockwaves would tear the plane apart.

- Forget 30 years of first hand human interactions

Assuming you've had them, I've had a few more, and with a very wide range of people. A brother officer once told me "every time I think I've seeen the stupidest things a man can do, all I have to do is come to work."

I've been within some level of government service for about 25 years, and I have seen nothing in the CT crowds posts that cannot be alternatively explained by someone trying to cover their ass. I will change my mind when something shows up that can only be explained by the government doing evil (instead of trying to cover up incompetance).

- Watch a lot of Foxnews

Every news organization has a slant. So what if Fox tends to be too centrist for your liking? You on the left have the other 7. Can't you be happy with that? Do what I do. watch about half Fox, about half CNN, and find the truth somewhere in the middle.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 03:09 PM
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I'm going to kick myself later for getting involved in another 9/11 thread, but here goes:

People's mind won't change. If it does, it will have nothing to do with proof or lack thereof, but rather their personality or some other change in thought processes that indirectly affects their world view.

People who believe the government are going to continue believing and scoff at those who don't.

People who disbelieve the government are going to continue disbelieving, and scoff at those who do.

The people who know better are going to remain silent because they know there's a little bit of both involved, and it's better to let people draw their own conclusion.

I honestly believe that no amount of proof will change anyone's opinion about the JFK assassination, and the same applies to 9/11, the moon landings, the masons, etc... Those who know the real truth, whom aren't already dead, if they bothered to come forward, would just be yet another little buzz, drowned out by millions and millions of others whom are utterly convinced they've got the whole thing figured out already. With the information overload there is more than enough evidence abounding to justify anyone's preconcieved notion of just about anything.

As for what I believe about 9/11... it was the crab people. And no amount of evidence, or even a signed affidavit by Trey Parker, the President, the Pope, and God, will change my mind. Those bloody crab people are responsible and I know it.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by thelibra
I'm going to kick myself later for getting involved in another 9/11 thread, but here goes:

People's mind won't change. If it does, it will have nothing to do with proof or lack thereof, but rather their personality or some other change in thought processes that indirectly affects their world view.

People who believe the government are going to continue believing and scoff at those who don't.

People who disbelieve the government are going to continue disbelieving, and scoff at those who do.

The people who know better are going to remain silent because they know there's a little bit of both involved, and it's better to let people draw their own conclusion.

I honestly believe that no amount of proof will change anyone's opinion


I officially withdraw from this thread...you just wrote one of the few things that I've ever read in a 9/11 thread that actually makes sence. So the best I can do is withdraw, by agreeing with you. Many of the people in these threads would, if God came down from heaven and demonstrated his power, would try to figure out which special effects house provided the effects.

Have fun, good citizens.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 03:22 PM
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Hi 2pacShade,

Changing my mind on 9/11 is impossible. After all the evidence I've read and seen I can only conclude that there was a major government involvement in 9/11. The actuall magnitude of their involvement is questionable, but the involvement itself is unquestionable.

I'm not gonna waste my time explaining some facts, because their well spread over different good books, documentaries, and websites. The links to these sources can be found all over this site.

Everyone who's seriously researching will share my idea's.

Government, media, banks, oil industry,... are corrupt and have their own agenda.

It's silly to believe that this government is really interested in the wellbeing of it's citizens.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 03:25 PM
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While I find some of the 911 inside conspiracy evidence fairly compelling, I find that the confiscation of most video surrounding it more compelling of the complete whitewash of our current President's gross incompetence as the CIC. The confiscated video would further enrage many American to un-elect Bush and his cronies from his stolen position of power. In reality, grossly incompetent doesn't even come close to accurately describe Bush's unfitness to lead our nation much less the free world. I hope there's a change of Congress in Nov. so impeachment procedings can start. They're 5 years overdue.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 03:43 PM
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I still don't understand how they crashed the plane into the pentagon so neatly. It's the one thing hat bothers me about 9/11 the most, other than the massive and unexcuesable govt. incompetance they cleary demonstrasted on that day.

The plane didn't scrape the parking lot or ground infront of the pentagon but was flying absolutly level about landing gear hight off the ground, did a last minut dive and leveled out perfectly, missed all the light posts and hit the side of the building.Would be some pretty damned, in fact really damned great flying by ace fighter pilot let alone a newbe terrorist flight tainee.

I know people have said that the plane atomized and I believe it would but the wings should have left some sort of scoring on the outside of the building, teflon coated or not, not just the fuselage. I think this because the wings of the same type of aircraft hit the WTC and they scored the out side of the building. Granted the WTC and the Pentagon are built differently. But no scoring at all? And the hole on the other side of the building was suspect to me too. The plane atomizes but one piece travels through the atomized dust cloud/spray unscathed enough to punch a hole out the back. It could happen I guess because stranger things have, but it still seems really unlikely.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 03:45 PM
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Originally posted by thelibra
As for what I believe about 9/11... it was the crab people. And no amount of evidence, or even a signed affidavit by Trey Parker, the President, the Pope, and God, will change my mind. Those bloody crab people are responsible and I know it.



Veeeerrrrryyyyy Innttteeerrreesstting Stempy. . .


So I take it that if we can capture a high ranking CRABbarean official, and he/she/ ( unisex individual correct title placed here ), spills the beans & unequivocally denies they had anything to do with it, then you will change your mind?


[edit on 22-9-2006 by 2PacSade]

edit to fix smiley & order crab for dinner

[edit on 22-9-2006 by 2PacSade]



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 03:49 PM
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Why do so many people think that because disbelief in the governments story makes people a CT? I for one never belived in UFO, JFK, Y2K or any 3 character designation!


911 was different. It opened my eyes in a very rude way. No way after everything that happened that day are you ging to have flight 77 hit the pentagon! Norad can track a tiny object in outer space,make sure in the past no aircraft that are not supposed to be there get anywhere near D.C. but cannot get flight 77 figured out?

Give me a better explanation than a drill and I will believe. The eastern seaboard is the most protected real estate in the world. You dont fly airliners around for hours at a time crashing into buildings without getting a fastmover on your six.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by 2PacSade
So I take it that if we can capture a high ranking CRABbarean official, and he/she/ ( unisex individual correct title placed here ), spills the beans & unequivocally denies they had anything to do with it, then you will change your mind?



Absolutley not. Everyone knows the crab people are a bunch of filthy liars, and even if they told what they thought was the truth, their true shadow-masters would be the real ones pulling the strings anyway. Any sort of alleged "proof" that the crab people didn't cause 9/11 is nothing more than a disinformation psyop!



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 05:39 PM
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Thanx thelibra. . . On that note I think we can move on to the next step. . .

First off I would like to again thank you all for participating in this, but I think it's time now to move on to the next phase. . .

But before I do I have a couple of awards to give out. . .

First a WATS vote to Griff for this response;




Atta's passport. Show me conclusive evidence that a passport can fly out of a person's pocket, fly through a huge fire ball, out into the open air and land unscathed near the towers just so some yahoo can come along and pick it up. Also, why was this particular piece of paper so important for someone on that day to say "hey, this might be the guy responsible....I think I'll give it to a police officer"? I don't think I'd be thinking along those lines at that point in time myself.


You have voted Griff for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Great job Griff. . . Coincidence? I think people on both sides should really think about this point
( He raises his glass & toasts! )

The next award I would like to announce is for the first ever WBTS vote from me goes to. . . . . . . . . . ( drum roll ). . . . . . . . . . . . thelibra!!!
( The crowd goes wild ), for these remarks;




thelibra- As for what I believe about 9/11... it was the crab people. And no amount of evidence, or even a signed affidavit by Trey Parker, the President, the Pope, and God, will change my mind. Those bloody crab people are responsible and I know it.

2PacSade- So I take it that if we can capture a high ranking CRABbarean official, and he/she/ ( unisex individual correct title placed here ), spills the beans & unequivocally denies they had anything to do with it, then you will change your mind?

thelibra- Absolutley not. Everyone knows the crab people are a bunch of filthy liars, and even if they told what they thought was the truth, their true shadow-masters would be the real ones pulling the strings anyway. Any sort of alleged "proof" that the crab people didn't cause 9/11 is nothing more than a disinformation psyop!


I don't know about the rest of you but that was eFFing BRILLIANT dude!


You have voted thelibra for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.

There isn't a selection at present for WBTS

O.K. so on to part two. . .

Here is all the data I collected. I placed it into four groups, and in some instances, truncated the quote to get to the point, but in no way did I spin anyone's remarks. Please let me know if you think I did. . . I have highlighted key words in your responses to help get to the point.

The first group, and the one I expected to come out on top:

PENTAGON

Finally releasing the Pentagon footage would show us the truth. Withholding it makes me believe they're hiding something.

The one thing that would prove or disprove it. . . has to be Proper Pentagon footage.

The only thing that would convince me that the Pentagon was hit by a missle would be footage of the building being hit by a missle

If all the tapes, depositions, reports and so on were released and it was abundantly clear that there was no involvement or aiding the attacks on part of Bush & Co., then I would be more than happy!

I'm supposed to believe holograms, missles, & controlled demolitions? With no evidence left behind? All supported by fuzzy logic & a misunderstanding of physics? I'm still waiting for anything compelling.

For the Pentagon, I don't know what happened. Easy way to change the way I think about that, is to give me good evidence either way. I lean towards the idea that a 757 hit it. . .

The Pentagon. Show us the darn videos. That's all I ask on that one.

All the govt. has to do is release the tapes. . .


Please look these remarks over. They are from both sides of the argument. Do you see any similarities? More to follow in the next post-



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 05:42 PM
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I believe there is too much secrecy and/or lies surrounding the whole 9/11 thing, IF all the alternative theories are wrong then the Government is to blame for not sharing or documenting information in a proper and deserved fashion.

there are cctv cameras everywhere so catching a large passenger airliner hitting a building like the pentagon shouldnt that difficult yet nothing has surfaced, it cant be in the name of national security



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 05:42 PM
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I could possibly change my mind about some aspects of the incident, but not the over all events. If only one of the towers had fallen it could be more credible, but both of them and Bldg 7 too?
There was so much flaky evidence given to us, like the rapidity with which they idendified the alleged hijackers, whose names were not even on the passenger lists, and there were a couple of miraculous I.D's that were found.
And the documenting of the alleged hijackers having partyed the night before, and then doing tricky things like that spectacular hit on the pentagon...


And for those who think that the government just wouldn't do such a thing to us, they should research "Operation Nortwoods -FOAI Documents".

In general the official story is an insult to any person capable of critical thinking.
It is telling us that they think we are all really dummies.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 06:07 PM
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Yeah, 2Pac. We should all be agreeing that releasing the Pentagon tapes should be a top priority for a public in which some 36% believes government involvement in 9/11. Clever way to approach it.


[edit on 22-9-2006 by bsbray11]



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by 2PacSade
I don't know about the rest of you but that was eFFing BRILLIANT dude!


You have voted thelibra for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.


Awww, thanks m8!!! I have to compliment you back as well for such a good sense of humor and level-.edness about the question you ask of us.


Originally posted by 2PacSade
All the govt. has to do is release the tapes. . .

Please look these remarks over. They are from both sides of the argument. Do you see any similarities? More to follow in the next post-


To be honest, I think if the government released the tapes now, they would inevitably turn a few .s, but by now those convinced will still believe that they believe. The tapes will either be confirmation their beliefs, or they will be brilliant fakes, or perhaps even be called both.

To be honest, I think the government made a very very poor domestic public relations choice when they did not immediately release all video that didn't directly compromise investigations, and even then they could have blotted out the parts like people's faces until later.

The only possible conspiracy reason I can think of is to rewrite history. First you change history, then you erase the fact that change happened, then you forget the erasure. That's thanks to George Orwell, whom has predicted quite a number of recent developments quite accurately, else I wouldn't really give it much more thought.

So, yeah, by now, five years later, who would believe a video? If the Pentagon came out tomorrow and said "Hey, here it is, the original time-stamped video tapes of all the cameras surrounding the pentagon, and here's the website you can get them from!" half the people here would immediately shout "PS!!!"

And I'd be inclined to lend them an ear, just as I do now, because none of us will ever really know. Ever. No matter what proof is given. We may believe, we may pick and choose what we will believe in, but we will never truly know.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by thelibra
And I'd be inclined to lend them an ear, just as I do now, because none of us will ever really know. Ever. No matter what proof is given. We may believe, we may pick and choose what we will believe in, but we will never truly know.


We can never know anything, thelibra. How do I know that when I wake up tomorrow, I won't be on the Moon? I don't know that I won't, and I realize this, but if you ask me where I'm going to wake up tomorrow, I'm going to tell you that I'm going to be more or less where I laid down. Why? Because nothing fruitful is going to come from looking at things this way. Not unless you're a Zen monk, anyway.

Believe it or not, we can determine many things with tools like logic and science alone.

[edit on 22-9-2006 by bsbray11]



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
Why? Because nothing fruitful is going to come from looking at things this way. Not unless you're a Zen monk, anyway.

Believe it or not, we can determine many things with tools like logic and science alone.


It's funny you mention that, as Zen makes up the majority of my philosophical beliefs at the moment. I saw majority, because there's no way for me to know if Zen is exactly right, so I mix in what I believe to be correct and adjust it according to what my life experiences tell me makes the most sense.

Conspiracies are much like religion or philosophy, my friend. Belief them them exists at all levels. If god tried to convince an atheist he existed, what would it take for the atheist to believe? It depends on just how god went about convincing the atheist. One person may be moved by a display of absolute power, one might be convinced by a simple word... or they might just wonder what sort of government, virtual reality, or alien program they'd been sucked into, and why were they trying to convince him that god exists?

So actually, I think I just produced the answer. You need to figure out what each person wants to see, to shake them to their very foundation, and figure out a way to show that to them.

Meh... who has the energy to do that?



(edit: big typo)

[edit on 9/22/2006 by thelibra]



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 06:57 PM
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Here's the rest of what I collected for results. . .

WTC
If evidence were found and became the consensus of
engineering organizations that stated they have indisputable
evidence of explosive materials from the sites.

To switch from thinking that WTC 7 was nothing other than a CD.
Until unequivocal evidence has been produced to support
another explanation, I stand strong.

The only thing that would convince me that the WTC's were
destroyed would be footage released showing people planting
explosives
in the buildings.

When the witnesses who heard explosives going off in the WTC get
just as much credit
as witnessess from the Pentagon.

For me to beleive that WTC 1 2 and 7 were bought down, I would
need physical evidence and video.

I can say I'll believe the official WTC collapse explanations if they provide all the evidence they've been withholding so far, and actually substantiate their claims, but I know this is never going to happen.

I’m supposed to believe holograms, missiles & controlled demolitions?
With no evidence left behind? All supported by fuzzy logic &
a misunderstanding of physics? I’m still waiting for anything
compelling.

When the Federal Government itself is complicit how do we seek
Justice? Maybe sworn testimony of the NYC firefighters? Federal
agents
who admit complicity for international amnesty?? Our govt
is also at war with itself!

The way the two towers came down was always odd to me. I was in disbelief that the buildings can come down the way they did without explosives. WTC 7 was really the smoking gun that I knew the official story is a lie.

The WTC buildings. Show me the construction documents. Plain and simple. We could do our own structural analysis with this information. Plus, it would shut up the whole concrete/no concrete core theories, show us how strong the buildings were built and with what materials...i.e. bolts, welds (what kind), etc.

Atta's passport. Show me conclusive evidence that a passport can fly out of a person's pocket, fly through a huge fire ball, out into the open air and land unscathed near the towers just so some yahoo can come along and pick it up. Also, why was this particular piece of paper so important for someone on that day to say "hey, this might be the guy responsible....I think I'll give it to a police officer"? I don't think I'd be thinking along those lines at that point in time myself.


FLIGHT 93

For Flight 93, to prove that it actually crashed on its own, one would have to drive a similar Boeing straight into the ground and see if it just leaves a black scorch mark. Then see if it creates a secondary debris site that also has to be cordoned off, some miles away. Then see if general debris is carried 8 miles away, uncharred.

Flight 93. I'd have to say ditto. (Referring to the previuos statement)

. . .those witnesses to Flight 93 getting blown out of the sky
(along with seeing a white plane) get just a much credit as witnessess from the Pentagon.


MISC
( About the hijackers )- Someone needs to dig deep, real deep into their backgrounds. Were they agents? Or were they just a bunch of fools talked into doing something dirty so someone else would not get their hands dirty?

How about if we start with the freakin truth.

I would have to lose 100 IQ points, not read, become "uneducated", that is, forget physics, calc, etc... Lose my "criminal mind". Forget 30 years of first hand human interactions & Watch a lot of Foxnews.

Ditto. Also, I would have lose any critical thinking skills, and cherry pick evidence.

Why proper protocol wasn't followed when Bush supposedly just heard
of the attacks while reading about a pet goat. How did the
Secret Service know that Bush wasn't a target?

I can't change my mind.... I wish i could.
I somtimes forget it - But it keeps comming back...

I will change my mind when something shows up that can only be explained by the government doing evil (instead of trying to cover up incompetance).


Again, like I stated previous, the most closely nit society, with respect to both viewpoints, surrounds the PENTAGON. It seems that if the vids were released, and both viewpoints could see them. Then both viewpoints would be satisfied with their current viewpoint. . .

BUT what if the "missle", or "flight 77", or "flight 77 & smoke already present from prior explosions", or "flight 77 & a missle", or an "A3 SkyHawk", or anything different appeared on these still to this day classified videos. . .

Would you really change your mind???


And if you did change your mind due to these new facts with respect to the Pentagon. . .

Would you start to doubt other thoughts you have concerning 911. . .

My point here is simple. If you saw exactly what you didn't expect to see on all the surveillance videos that are out there. . .The one's we know were quickly confiscated, and the one's from the Pentagon itself that may exist. . . Would you maybe start to doubt some or all your other beliefs concerning 911?

Isn't this evidence, . . . everything?

For me, I would embrace a bittersweet knowledge that our government didn't have anything to do with 911. . .

Please, let me know what you feel about this. . . It may help you figure out some things for yourself too. . .

This was the whole point of my thread. Thanx again-


spelling

[edit on 22-9-2006 by 2PacSade]

fixed bold marks

[edit on 22-9-2006 by 2PacSade]



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