Just What Would It Take For You To Believe The Opposite Story?

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by Amaterasu
I'm just wondering...how could it be that they were in a bathroom and could see smoke? I have never seen a window in any airplane bathroom - but I suppose stranger things have happened.

That's a good question. I think I'm mistaken, though. The original AP article says this:

911research.wtc7.net...

They never said he was sitting in the bathroom as he saw the white smoke, so my mistake there. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but I agree that it doesn't seem as likely that he would have been locked in the bathroom while seeing it.

I don't want to get off topic but could the person have been peeking out while on the phone? He doesn't state he's got the door closed? Just a thought.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
True, but it surely is implied, being that he was "locked in" the bathroom.

EDIT: And I might add that it has been shown (I'll see if I can find it) that cell phones wouldn't work - which means either the call was not from the plane, or it was not from the bathroom, because, as has been pointed out, the skyphones do work...maybe. Not sure that even that's true so close to the ground at those speeds...

[edit on 21-9-2006 by Amaterasu]

If it was satelite it could work farther that cell, but the problem with satelite is line of sight. They usually don't work well indoors.

Originally posted by tooblue

Originally posted by 2PacSade


My first criteria for HONESTLY changing my mind would be to switch from thinking that WTC 7 was nothing other than a CD.

So what proof specifically would have to be shown to you that wtc 7 was not a CD?
This thread has quickly descended back into the same 'ol same 'ol. Lets attempt to steer it back on course. Its actually a good question, I think.

[edit on 22-9-2006 by tooblue]

Yes I agree. I'm to blame too.

Again I'm compiling all your statements. I am going to use them for an experiment & post them all later on in this thread when I get a bunch of them. Please keep them coming. Thanx-

I would have to:

- Lose 100 IQ points
- Not read
- Become "uneducated", that is, forget physics, calc, etc...
- Lose my "criminal mind"
- Forget 30 years of first hand human interactions
- Watch a lot of Foxnews

* Why proper protocal wasn't done when Bush supposedly just heard of the attacks while reading about a pet goat. How did the Secret Service knew that Bush and those around, wasn't a target?

* When the witnessess from the those who heard explosives going off in the WTC and those who witness Flight 93 getting blown out of the sky(along with seeing a white plane) get just a much credit for being a fact as those who wants us to believe the eyesight from the witnessess from the Pentagon. Picture that


Just to name of few......

Originally posted by Slap Nuts
I would have to:

- Lose 100 IQ points
- Not read
- Become "uneducated", that is, forget physics, calc, etc...
- Lose my "criminal mind"
- Forget 30 years of first hand human interactions
- Watch a lot of Foxnews

Ditto

Also, I would have lose any critical thinking skills, and cherry pick evidence.

[edit on 22-9-2006 by LeftBehind]

'Do you remember,' O'Brien went on, 'writing in your diary, "Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four"?'

'Yes,' said Winston.

O'Brien held up his left hand, its back towards Winston, with the thumb hidden and the four fingers extended.

'How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?'

'Four.'

'And if the party says that it is not four but five -- then how many?'

'Four.'

'How many fingers, Winston?'

'Four.'

The needle went up to sixty.

'How many fingers, Winston?'

'Four! Four! What else can I say? Four!'

'How many fingers, Winston?'

'Four! Stop it, stop it! How can you go on? Four! Four!'

'How many fingers, Winston?'

They can never make me believe it's Five. Torture me to death if they will. 2+2=4. It will always be Four.



[edit on 22-9-2006 by tazadar]

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
The one thing that would prove or disprove it... has to be proper pentagon footage.
We saw the towers get hit, we saw them come down.. majority of evidence would of been destroyed in the towers coming down...

I totally agree that finally releasing the Pentagon footage would show us the truth.
Withholding it makes me believe they're hiding something.

Originally posted by tazadar
'Do you remember,' O'Brien went on, 'writing in your diary, "Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four"?' . . . . . .

They can never make me believe it's Five. Torture me to death if they will, it will always be Four.

[edit on 22-9-2006 by tazadar]

I get the jist of your post, but can you clarify what the "five" is? ( With respect to 911. Thanx- )

The flight 93 call was made from a bathroom, and he reported he had jsut witnessed white smoke and heard a large xplosion I beleive. It was not like he was taking a dump and looking out the window.

If you look at the tapes and information from the black boxes, you can see it is traveling fine, suddenly there is alot of shaking and corrective piloting, and then it begins to go straight down in a steep descent. All coinciding with what happened.


For me to beleive that WTC 12 and 7 were bought down, I would need physical evidence and video. No pictures, these are too open to interpretation. I will admit that I was, the first time I saw a 9/11 CT video, skeptical. There is too much though that points to the official story.

With that said. I am confident of the official story, but I could easily be swayed with the correct evidence. I am not a blind believer nor follower, I am a seeker of what is true. I have been in a few embroiled debates on 9/11 issues, and it is difficult.

There is soooo much out there, it is a matter of finding the all the puzzle pieces, just not the ones that fit you ideas.

Regarding the so-called 'explosions' in the WTC.

Take the squre footage of a floor, figure out the weight of the floor including cement and rebar.

Now start at 90 stories in the air with other levels 10-15' apart below.

Now drop the top one onto the one below........

The resulting sound would sound like an explosion.

The resulting force of air pressure from the floors collasping on each other would cause the 'puffs' of smoke coming out the windows below.

When the buildings came down it was extremely loud. It sounded to me like I was next to a jet engine (I was only a block and 1/2 away when the first tower collapsed)

[edit on 22-9-2006 by ferretman2]

[edit on 22-9-2006 by ferretman2]

My spelling is horrible today!

[edit on 22-9-2006 by ferretman2]

Originally posted by ferretman2
When the buildings came down it was extremely loud. It sounded to me like I was next to a jet engine (I was only a block and 1/2 away when the first tower collapsed)

I seriously hope you don't become ill...thanks to the EPA. But, in all seriousness...what does the rest of your post have to do with you changing your mind? Sounds like you've closed your mind to anything other than what you think/have been told. No offense.

[edit on 22-9-2006 by aeonsbeyond]

When the Federal Government itself is complicit how do we seek Justice? Maybe sworn testimony of the NYC firefighters? Federal agents who admit complicity for international amnesty?? Our govt is also at war with itself!

[edit on 22-9-2006 by aeonsbeyond]

Originally posted by 2PacSade
I get the jist of your post, but can you clarify what the "five" is? ( With respect to 911. Thanx- )

The dialogue is from 1984 on chapter 2. This part is where Big Brother is torturing the main character to brainwash him. It continues like this.

'How many fingers, Winston?'

'Five! Five! Five!'

'No, Winston, that is no use. You are lying. You still think there are four. How many fingers, please?'

'Four! five! Four! Anything you like. Only stop it, stop the pain!'

"Five" is the story the criminal elements in our government tell the public. I used to work in construction. If you smash concrete together by the force of their own weight plus gravity, concrete doesn't get pulverized into dust.

The way the two towers came down was always odd to me. I was in disbelief that the buildings can come down the way they did without explosives.

WTC 7 was really the smoking gun that I knew the official story is a lie.

Interresting question.. I think I might have thought about it a few times.

A Crash To Desktop... CTD

A Controlled Demolition ... CD

A Digital Video Disk DVD..


What did CT mean? Controlled Terror?

Is the terror Controlled? How can Terror be Controlled??!
Controlled by who?... Who makes the calls - makes the Idea.

Was It Albert Einstein? Osama Bin Laden?

Who would think of teasing the President? A President who's fathers father was a Nazi... Skull & Bones.. Masons 33 degree....

I can't change my mind.... I wish i could.
I somtimes forget it - But it keeps comming back... The detentions camps - the FEMA-troops...

Im ready for world war... Mass deportation of human beings.. Death camps.

You know why im ready?!

I have seen it before! Most of you have seen it before... History is repeating itself..
The denial is there - and the false images and promise to the workers...

I can't change my mind on it....Even if i try.
I have tried - But it's the same as forgetting it ever happend... Like denying the death camps ever existed...

I can't change my mind.... I wish i could.

Thax to all who have given concise statements to my original question. I'd like to gather more data, but I need specific requirements with respect to "What would it take to make you change your mind?". A straight to the point statement on any of the debated issues concerning 911.

WTC collapses & the planes?

The Pentagon & what hit it?

Flight 93? etc.

What would it take?

Thanx again. Please respond all of you that debate issues. I'm compiling all the data, and I will share it with all of you. I want to show you something that I think will help clear up many of the issues concerning this complex situation.

Griff - I was referring to the 'Cter's' who insist the Towers were brought down by explosives.

Originally posted by Slap Nuts
I would have to:

- Lose 100 IQ points
- Not read
- Become "uneducated", that is, forget physics, calc, etc...
- Lose my "criminal mind"
- Forget 30 years of first hand human interactions
- Watch a lot of Foxnews

I feel the same way.


I wish I could say, "Well, if they can prove that there was enough buckling and other structural failures to initiate a collapse...", or "Well, if the core didn't really have lateral bracing...", or "Maybe if the core columns were connected with rope..."...


I agree with what Slap Nuts is getting at though. I can say I'll believe the official WTC collapse explanations if they provide all the evidence they've been withholding so far, and actually substantiate their claims, but I know this is never going to happen. To me, it's like asking what it would take for me to believe the world is flat. It would take a hell of a lot, let's put it that way. I'm not sure you could ever convince me that the Earth is flat, without ripping down everything I know and starting all over. Similarly, I don't think anyone is going to be able to prove to me that a 110-story skyscraper can collapse without losing speed, even as 90% of its mass is ejected right out of the building and isn't even hitting the lower floors. And the core columns aren't still standing. And the perimeter columns are ejected in sections, and don't cave inwards as they would if there were actually buckling failures.



For the Pentagon, I don't know what happened. Easy way to change the way I think about that, is to give me good evidence either way. I lean towards the idea that a 757 hit it, because jets can be totally shredded by impacts into thick concrete walls. However, I don't think any landing gear or fuselage or whatever else they say is going to knock a clean hole in the C-ring. Easy way to change the way I think there is to do tests.

For Flight 93, to prove that it actually crashed on its own, one would have to drive a similar Boeing straight into the ground and see if it just leaves a black scorch mark. Then see if it creates a secondary debris site that also has to be cordoned off, some miles away. Then see if general debris is carried 8 miles away, uncharred.

Ok...here are my few ideas.

Atta's passport. Show me conclusive evidence that a passport can fly out of a person's pocket, fly through a huge fire ball, out into the open air and land unscathed near the towers just so some yahoo can come along and pick it up. Also, why was this particular piece of paper so important for someone on that day to say "hey, this might be the guy responsible....I think I'll give it to a police officer"? I don't think I'd be thinking along those lines at that point in time myself.

The WTC buildings. Show me the construction documents. Plain and simple. We could do our own structural analysis with this information. Plus, it would shut up the whole concrete/no concrete core theories, show us how strong the buildings were built and with what materials...i.e. bolts, welds (what kind), etc.

The pentagon. Show us the darn videos. That's all I ask on that one.

Flight 93. I'd have to say ditto to what BSBray11 said.

In a nut shell, some of those things would possibly change my views of the events.

Good question BTW. It makes one realise how closed/open ones mind REALLY is.

[edit on 9/22/2006 by Griff]

Originally posted by Griff
Ok...here are my few ideas.

Atta's passport. Show me conclusive evidence that a passport can fly out of a person's pocket, fly through a huge fire ball, out into the open air and land unscathed near the towers just so some yahoo can come along and pick it up. Also, why was this particular piece of paper so important for someone on that day to say "hey, this might be the guy responsible....I think I'll give it to a police officer"? I don't think I'd be thinking along those lines at that point in time myself.

That is actually a big one! Especially since there was tons of paper and debris flying everywhere! I wonder who the person was and if they were ever questioned, that brought that passport to light? I'd say that was like a miraculous feat to have made it through all that mess unscathed as it was. Just too convenient.



Those Mossad guys also concerned me a lot.