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The New World As Seen By Hugo Chavez

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posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
I have the schitzophrenic answer to all this.

Chavez, is a dummy, uneducated, non-diplomat moron, but he speaks the truth!!
And a commie at that!

But knows what he's talking about! Go figure!!! This may be the trend of the future.


Wrong DG, and I can't beleive you of all people would make such a statement....

We have Chavez make such stupid stupid comments as the following.


Global offensive
I believe it is time that we take up with courage and clarity a political, social, collective and ideological offensive across the world — a real offensive that permits us to move progressively, over the next years, the next decades, leaving behind the perverse, destructive, destroyer, capitalist model and go forward in constructing the socialist model to avoid barbarism and beyond that the annihilation of life on this planet.

I believe this idea has a strong connection with reality. I don’t think we have much time. Fidel Castro said in one of his speeches I read not so long ago, “tomorrow could be too late, let’s do now what we need to do”. I don't believe that this is an exaggeration. The environment is suffering damage that could be irreversible — global warming, the greenhouse effect, the melting of the polar ice caps, the rising sea level, hurricanes — with terrible social occurrences that will shake life on this planet.
..............
It is the moment of offensive, of the masses, of struggle, of battle. It is a new moment we have now and we don't know if we will have another moment later. We don’t know if we will have time.

I believe there is not enough time to wait 50 years for another moment so advantageous like this one to advance in the global struggle against imperialism, against imperialist hegemony and for the creation of new paths, the opening of new paths.

www.greenleft.org.au...

BTW, Chavez is so much in favour of free speech, that he called for the following.


After two controversial years at the helm of oil-rich Venezuela, President Hugo Chavez appears to have finally taken the leap into what some are calling the Cubanization of his country.

During a speech Sunday, Chavez called on his supporters to form Cuban-style neighborhood watchdog groups -- "on every corner, on every block" -- in a move to insulate his leftist Bolivarian Revolution from criticism.

www.cubanet.org...

Chavez is claiming that only through the "permanent revolution' will the world be saved, which is BS.


The GDP of Venezuela rose 600% in 2004 compared to 1996, so where is all that money going to?...


GDP has risen by more than 600% since 1996 reaching 206,125 billion Bolivar’s in 2004.

ezinearticles.com...:-Environment-and-Economy&id=276024

The whole article is quite interesting btw, it tells some of the things that are really happening in Venezuela, for anyone that is interested.

ezinearticles.com...:-Environment-and-Economy&id=276024

Chavez is a clown who does not speak "the truth" DG....

Here is a link, with a list and statistical graphs, with the unfulfilled promises of Chavez.

vcrisis.com

Here is the blog of a Venezuelan citizen, presenting information and links about the unenployment figures in Venezuela.
daniel-venezuela.blogspot.com


[edit on 23-9-2006 by Muaddib]



Mod Edit: Link format edited. Please review this post.


[edit on 23-9-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]



df1

posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by DeusEx
And there are places where rape isn't crime. Does that make it right? What about places where they quash freedom of religion...

What do rape and quashing religous freedom have to do with anything related chavez or oil in venezuela? Your so desperate to bash the guy, because he stuck it to bush, that you will say absolutely anything, no matter how absurd.



if you want to be bitter, go for it.

Damn right Im bitter. I want a free US economy, but our corporate socialist government is giving away our taxpayer dollars to a bunch of corporate welfare freeloaders. It has also created a system to give these same corporations a competitive advantage. Every US citizen should be bitter about this corruptions.

The US calling chavez a thief is like the mafia complaining about a teen shop lifting a candy bar.

Viva Chavez



posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by df1

What do rape and quashing religous freedom have to do with anything related chavez or oil in venezuela? Your so desperate to bash the guy, because he stuck it to bush, that you will say absolutely anything, no matter how absurd.


Actually, I was addressing Iori's comment about Chavez flat out STEALING companies and land being 'right' as defined by a country's constitution, regardless of how the rest of society views it. But, by all means, speculate about my motives.

Chavez has also been attacking unions and the paper industry.


During the December 2000 local elections, Chávez placed a referendum measure on the ballot that would mandate state-monitored elections within unions. The measure, which was condemned by the International Labour Organization (ILO) and International Confederation of Free Trade Unions (ICFTU) as undue interference in internal union matters, passed by a large margin on a very low electoral turnout.


Emphasis mine. Inflitrating unions, to...


Further augmenting state involvement in Venezuela's economy, Chávez nationalized Venepal, a formerly closed paper and cardboard manufacturing firm, on January 19, 2005. Workers had occupied the factory floor and restarted production, but following a failed deal with management and amidst management threats to liquidate the firm's equipment, Chávez ordered the nationalization, extended a line of credit to the workers, and ordered that the Venezuelan educational missions purchase more paper products from the company.


both from en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, if a bussiness is having a labor dispute...quick, bypass the union and nationalize the damn thing! Then, force your state to buy its products. In addition to these qualms against his economic behavior, let's see what else Wikipedia has to say:


Venezuela is a major producer of oil products, which remain the keystone of the Venezuelan economy. Chávez has gained a reputation as a price hawk in OPEC, pushing for stringent enforcement of production quotas and higher target oil prices. At a June 2006 meeting, Venezuela was the only OPEC country calling for lowered production to drive oil prices higher. Industry analysts say Venezuela wants lower quotas because, under Chávez's administration, the output of Petróleos de Venezuela S.A. (PDVSA), Venezuela's state-owned oil company, has been reduced by 25% and Venezuela cannot meet its current quota.


en.wikipedia.org...

So, he can't run the state-owned oil company, so he's also GIVING away oil to needy Americans. He's not meeting quotas and trying to drive oil prices higher, yet trying to make it 'affordable'? The oil gift to Americans is a bribe, nothing more. Continuing, onto the subject of poverty and unemployment from the great and mighty Wiki:


But, according to The Boston Globe, critics say that the government defines "informal workers, such as street vendors, as employed, and exclud[es] adults who are studying in missions from unemployment numbers." Critics also point to figures released by the president of the Venezuelan National Statistics Institute, Elías Eljuri, which showed that poverty had actually risen by more than 10 percentage points under Chávez (to 53% in 2004). Chávez called for a new measure of poverty, a "social well-being index". Under this new definition, poverty registers at 40 percent.[108] Eljuri denies changing the statistic and claims it is entirely income excluding social programs. [112]


So, he's skewing the numbers. Everything I posted there was prettymuch backed up in Muaddib's posts. He's running his country into the ground, raising oil prices, and lying through his teeth. Is there a reason to not object to that?

EDIT:Wikipedia has a seperate page of complaints about Chavez. Well, that was a lot of work for nothing.

DE

[edit on 23-9-2006 by DeusEx]


df1

posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 05:20 PM
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Originally posted by DeusEx
speculate about my motives.

Speculation is unneccesary, your remarks leave no doubt.



bypass the union

Reagan's by passing of the air traffic controllers union was ok, however chavez doing something similar is a crime. Your position sounds inconsistent and dishonest to me.



So, he can't run the state-owned oil company, so he's also GIVING away oil to needy Americans...

When something good is done for the american people you complain to high heaven, but we would never hear a whimper from you if the corporate oil cartel stole that same oil and price gouged the american people. Also you give your tacit approval when US foreign aide is sent to people in nearly every country on the planet, but should even one cent be given to an american citizen you call it evil socialism. This is the most unamerican crap Ive seen in a long time.



backed up in Muaddib's posts.

All you are saying is that you do not have a credible source. One of you distorts the truth and the other swears the distortion is true.

Viva Chavez

PS: You guys are looking pretty bad.
Are you also posting links improperly inorder to make the page difficult read to avoid ridicule & embarrassment?

[edit on 23-9-2006 by df1]



posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by df1
Speculation is unneccesary, your remarks leave no doubt...

I do not support Chavez, therefore I support Bush? That's some excellent logic. I do not want peas, therefore I want bread has about the same consistency. At no point did I ever state my support of Bush.

Reagan's by passing of the air traffic controllers union was ok, however chavez doing something similar is a crime. Your position sounds inconsistent and dishonest to me...

At no point did I ever say I supported Reagan's actions. But, continue to draw conclusions.

When something good is done for the american people you complain to high heaven, but we would never hear a whimper from you if the corporate oil cartel stole that same oil and price gouged the american people. Also you give your tacit approval when US foreign aide is sent to people in nearly every country on the planet, but should even one cent be given to an american citizen you call it evil socialism. This is the most unamerican crap Ive seen in a long time...

I don't even know where to begin with this one. Firstly, a bribe is not something good for my American cousins. Secondly, had you read what I posted, I objected to the fact that in this case, Chavez runs the Venezuelan corporate oil cartel and has publicly attempted to raise the price of oil. Thirdly, I don't tacitly approve of even my own country's foreign aid policies, much less our cousin's so to speak.

Fourthly, I'm Canadian. It's not my job to be American.


All you are saying is that you do not have a credible source. One of you distorts the truth and the other swears the distortion is true.

Wikipedia seems to agree with me, among others. Or is the fact that it goes against your quasi-Communist views what makes it uncredible? The facts aren't really in dispute here- Chavez is artificially inflating the price of oil, and trying to bribe Americans with it, too.

Do me a favor, check your facts before you un around accusing people of being 'unamerican' or assigning them beliefs based on your perceptions.

DE




posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 06:06 PM
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Originally posted by df1

Reagan's by passing of the air traffic controllers union was ok, however chavez doing something similar is a crime. Your position sounds inconsistent and dishonest to me.



Df1,
I do not compleatly see your point hear, but I just want to make one point clear. The air traffic control union during the Reagan era broke the fedearal organised labor laws. I dont think by passing the union is a correct statment in that case.


df1

posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by RedGolem
I do not compleatly see your point...

Reagan placed the jack boot of government on the throat of the flight controllers union. What is the point of having a union at all if union members are prohibited from striking or taking other job actions by corrupt laws & regulations? Additionally this low life actually used military controllers as scabs to break controllers union by placing soldiers on jobs at civilian airports. My point is that the powerful will always impose their will on the weak, both in the US & venezuela. And it is irrelevant whether 'yellow dog' thugs are used to force workers into compliance or whether a corrupt laws are used to acheive that goal. Both approaches end the same way for the worker.

DE,
Your being a canadian is not important to me, my remarks are targeted at your words. I will admit that I first found it odd that you are from canada, but after consideration I figure that at least one jew probably supported hitler all the way to the gas chamber. The world is full of the strangest things, so neocons from canada, though odd, are within the realm of possibility I suppose.
.



posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 08:27 PM
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Originally posted by DeusEx

Originally posted by soficrow
Which means that every time a corporation faces an 'a' or 'b' choice:

a) Do what's best for people, the environment, the planet; or

b) Forget the people, environment, and planet, and go for the bucks;

Then,

the corporation is legally required to choose 'b,' no waffling or compromise allowed.


Interesting system, dontcha think?


Hooray for taking choice out of the matter!






It wasn't me who took the choice out of the matter. Corporate law now is entrenched under international law.

Corporations have NO choice - they MUST put profits before people.

I didn't make it happen. Trust me.





Don't punish the corporations which feed so many because you take issue with them.




I am simply stating the facts here.


.



posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 08:35 PM
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This is ATSNN.

Please debate the topic and not each other.
This is also not PTS so it is important to keep the political name calling at bay.
And, no personal off topic comments.

[edit on 23-9-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]



posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 05:00 AM
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Originally posted by df1
Reagan's by passing of the air traffic controllers union was ok, however chavez doing something similar is a crime. Your position sounds inconsistent and dishonest to me.

Reagan's actions were a matter of national safety. Chavez, on the other hand, is a petty thief.


PS: You guys are looking pretty bad.

I think they've made their points quite convincingly.


df1

posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by df1
Reagan's by passing of the air traffic controllers union was ok, however chavez doing something similar is a crime. Your position sounds inconsistent and dishonest to me.

Reagan's actions were a matter of national safety. Chavez, on the other hand, is a petty thief.

If chavez is a petty thief, then that made reagan the reigning mafia don of america. Surely you do not doubt that for any given year it could be shown that the theft from the US treasury exceeds the gnp of venezuela for that same year.

In the present day, hearing rangel, pelosi and bush all chanting in chorus "our crime family right or wrong" is a real hoot, but it does not give me any confidence in their ability to to govern in the interest of the american people. Instead of governing these parasites continuously parade the devil of the day in front of us; bin laden, saddam, gaddafi, ahmadinezhad and now chavez, the list is endless. These evil effigies are apparently suppose to keep my attention saluting the flag and bashing these external demons while the jokers in washington rob the treasury blind.

In the grand scheme of things chavez is a pimple on the butt of the universe and his actions have little or no influence on my daily life. The same can not be said for the demopublican criminal cabal in washington. The actions of the rangels, pelosis and bushs have a daily impact on the rules we must live by, our income and the safety of our families. So please excuse me if I don't join your mob and charge down the street to tar feather the latest chimera taken out of the closet by our government.

My focus is and will remain on the american devils which run our government. These people impact my life directly on daily basis with their stupid and criminal acts. Whether chavez is a saint or serpent is largely unimportant and would not absolve US politicians of their crimes whatever the case on chavez maybe be. America has its own evil that must be slayed before a trivial player like chavez would merit even the slightest criticism from the president of the most powerful country in the world. None the less, the president has dragged this obscure 'tin horn' leader on to world stage in order to take our attention away from reality.



I think they've made their points quite convincingly.

Frankly Im at a complete loss as to what you could have possibly found convincing.

[edit on 24-9-2006 by df1]



posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by df1

...hearing rangel, pelosi and bush all chanting in chorus "our crime family right or wrong" is a real hoot, but it does not give me any confidence their ability to to govern in the interest of the american people.

...Instead of governing these parasites continuously parade the devil of the day in front of us; bin laden, saddam, gaddafi, ahmadinezhad and now chavez, the list is endless. These evil effigies are apparently suppose to keep my attention saluting the flag and bashing these external demons while the jokers in washington rob the treasury blind.

In the grand scheme of things chavez is a pimple on the butt of the universe and his actions have little or no influence on my daily life. The same can not be said for the demopublican criminal cabal in washington. The actions of the rangels, pelosis and bushs have a daily impact on the rules we must live by, our income and the safety of our families. ...

My focus is and will remain on the american devils which run our government. These people impact my life directly on daily basis with their stupid and criminal acts.




Well said df.


Succinct, and funny.

Kudos to you.


I totally agree that Washington's parasitic criminal cabal holds power by distracting voters with a succession of "devils of the day" - bin Laden, Saddam, Gaddafi, Ahmadinezhad and now Chavez.

Yawn.

But, unfortunately it seems to work. And many Americans are being encouraged to think (wrongly) that the UN is US soil. It's not.



ed to expand

[edit on 24-9-2006 by soficrow]

[edit on 24-9-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]



posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by df1
Frankly Im at a complete loss as to what you could have possibly found convincing.

I find the fact that their arguments are backed up by sources and facts, while the only thing that you offer is sophistry such as:


If chavez is a petty thief, then that made reagan the reigning mafia don of america. Surely you do not doubt that for any given year it could be shown that the theft from the US treasury exceeds the gnp of venezuela for that same year.

In the present day, hearing rangel, pelosi and bush all chanting in chorus "our crime family right or wrong" is a real hoot, but it does not give me any confidence in their ability to to govern in the interest of the american people. Instead of governing these parasites continuously parade the devil of the day in front of us; bin laden, saddam, gaddafi, ahmadinezhad and now chavez, the list is endless. These evil effigies are apparently suppose to keep my attention saluting the flag and bashing these external demons while the jokers in washington rob the treasury blind.





In the grand scheme of things chavez is a pimple on the butt of the universe and his actions have little or no influence on my daily life.

When he starts to jack up the price of oil, as he has made it known that he wants to, it will definitely have an influence on your life.


So please excuse me if I don't join your mob and charge down the street to tar feather the latest chimera taken out of the closet by our government.

You can hate our gov't for any reason you'd like. That's fine and understandable. What's odd is that that you also revere Chavez. It seems your reason for wishing him long life is the fact that he seems to hate our gov't as much as you do.

It's just all around odd thinking, that's all. I guess you subscribe to the "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" philosophy?


df1

posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 04:08 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
You can hate our gov't for any reason you'd like.

I love the constitution and I love the american people. So it is certainly reasonable for me to hate those that are abusing and destroying the things I love. You make my hate of corrupt government sound like it is bad thing. Doesn't everyone hate corrupt and dishonest government officials too?



What's odd is that that you also revere Chavez.

Talk about odd. I refer to chavez as an "obscure 'tin horn' leader" and "a pimple on the butt of the universe", from which you conclude that I revere chavez. Is your native language something other than english?
.



posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by jsobecky
You can hate our gov't for any reason you'd like.

I love the constitution and I love the american people. So it is certainly reasonable for me to hate those that are abusing and destroying the things I love. You make my hate of corrupt government sound like it is bad thing. Doesn't everyone hate corrupt and dishonest government officials too?

I even bolded it for you, df1:

That's fine and understandable.




What's odd is that that you also revere Chavez.


Talk about odd. I refer to chavez as an "obscure 'tin horn' leader" and "a pimple on the butt of the universe", from which you conclude that I revere chavez.

You ended several passages with "Viva Chavez". On page 2 you dedicated a post to lauding his accomplishments. And now you're trying to mitigate your remarks by calling him a pimple?


Is your native language something other than english?

Ahh, the inevitable personal insult. The last refuge of the vanquished.


I'm going to leave you now, since the rest of your remarks will undoubtedly be an effort to save face. And I'm not interested in watching.



posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 06:58 PM
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Why should anyone care about whom Hugo Chavez hates or not ? If he doesn't sell his stupid oil to the USA who will he sell it to ? No other nation in the world buys and needs as much oil as the USA does, and he can't afford NOT to sell it to the US... so let the dogs bark.

I mean seriosuly ... he forgets to take a shower and than complains about the "vulcanic" smell... hello



posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 07:02 PM
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Originally posted by df1
What do rape and quashing religous freedom have to do with anything related chavez or oil in venezuela? Your so desperate to bash the guy, because he stuck it to bush, that you will say absolutely anything, no matter how absurd.


If you think that ididot stuck anything to anyone you need the same vitamins that he did ... Did you niotice the people laughing at the UN.. and they were not laughing in agreement .. they were laughing at "it's didity time".




Damn right Im bitter. I want a free US economy, but our corporate socialist government is giving away our taxpayer dollars to a bunch of corporate welfare freeloaders. It has also created a system to give these same corporations a competitive advantage. Every US citizen should be bitter about this corruptions.

The US calling chavez a thief is like the mafia complaining about a teen shop lifting a candy bar.

Viva Chavez


????/ Viva Chavez ? well man.. move to Venezuela and see how good it is to live under Chavez

Why do you think there are SO MANY thousands of Venezuelans trying to get in the USA??? I bet they would disagree with your "Viva Chavez"

You don't even know how good you have it in the USA ..Free US economy my but !... there is NO FREE Economy in this world man ! Get real !

mod edit, fix quote tags

[edit on 24-9-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]



posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 07:05 PM
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I have a couple of questions to all of you American America bashers and others not so American.

Why haven't you moved to Venezula yet ?

Why are you seating at your nice airconditioner homes, with you buclets of greasy KFC in front of your faces watching your American MTV and complaining about the USA for ?

Go leave to Iran, or Venezuela or any otehr of these free countries you so much cheer on, Go love under their Freedom .. Go enjoy THEIR free nation and their Free economy.

Spoiled Rotten Whinning Pizza Stuffing Hypocrites!



posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 07:33 PM
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BaastetNoir,
Well generally speaking people hear just like to complain about pretty much everything

On a more serious side some of the points they bring up are valid but I do agree with you, there is more freedom in the US then there offen is in the countries they are compareing the US to.


Mod Note: Trim Those Quotes - Please Review this link



[edit on 24-9-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]


df1

posted on Sep, 25 2006 @ 12:07 AM
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Originally posted by BaastetNoir
Why haven't you moved to Venezula yet ?

I don't like the weather.



Why are you seating at your nice airconditioner homes, with you buclets of greasy KFC in front of your faces watching your American MTV and complaining about the USA for ?

Nobody is complaining about the USA.



Go leave to Iran, or Venezuela or any otehr of these free countries you so much cheer on, Go love under their Freedom .. Go enjoy THEIR free nation and their Free economy.

I have a place in mind that Id like you to visit also. Send me a u2u titled "Where should I go?" and I will quickly tell you where to go. The mods wont let me tell you here, but Im sure they would be understanding if I told you where go after you asked me to tell you.



Spoiled Rotten Whinning Pizza Stuffing Hypocrites!

The only person in this thread that has bashed americans is you. I cite your above post as evidence of your american bashing. Some of us are exercising the first amendment rights guaranteed to american citizens by the US constitution. And we are using this right to speak out against those currently in control of the US government, but only you have specifically bashed americans in general.

The point of the first amendment is to protect unpopular speech, no protections are needed to speak out when everyone is in agreement. However their is a group that would like to silence americans that are vocally critical of the people in government, Ive taken to referring to this group 'faux patriots'.

The 'faux patriots' typically starts out softly by suggesting that the individual in question leave the country, then it is escalates into degrading the persons character and this is soon followed by name calling. The sad part about 'faux patriots' is that they actually believe that they are more american than the rest of us, but nothing could be further from truth as they fail to show even a vague familiarity with the historical documents on which the united states of america is based.

Some folks think that I am siding with chavez over president bush because in several previous posts I used the salutation "Viva Chavez", but this isnt true. Im a very honest person that treats everyone fairly. Should bush ever be elected president of venezuela I will happily cheer "Viva Bush". And I have no doubt that millions of americans would join me with bands, fireworks and a multitude of red white & blue flags to celebrate his departure.

[edit on 25-9-2006 by df1]



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