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Originally posted by orangetom1999
Vietnam was never about winning and I am begining to suspect that the same people who kept the Vietnam war going for buisness reasons are doing the same in Iraq/Afganistan and eventually other places. They have hijacked the war for their profit purposes.
Vietnam was about bringing a nation into the Twentieth Century in ten short years or less and then when the nations was sufficiently developed...and the oil discovered and capped off the nation was then ready to be put into storage. Yes you can put a nation into storage. You only have to make sure a Communist government is installed.
Communist Governments are excellent for keeping out competitors and at the same time making sure no unauthorized progress takes place. Communist nations are perfect for this role as certain progresses are impossible under such a controlling government. The same could be said for a Taliban type government. Certain progresses are impossible here too.
These types of Government would be perfect for Global buisnesses to put a whole nation into storage while at the same time keeping competitors out. They will replace the Communists in this role.
Chairman Mao was perfect for keeping progress out of China and other competitors out...until the time for developement...then the ping pong team comes in and opens the doors...wola..progress happens and then you have Wal Mart. The epitome of civilized development. Next thing you know they will be moving up to the oriental equivalent of Hooters.
The trick is spotting the next development area..either for resources or Labor. The materials can be shipped anywhere in the world ..even the manufacturing plants can be shipped. The competition today is in Labor...cheap labor. Resources is a different problem ..by this I mean raw materials....though one could also look at cheap labor as a resource......ala...Mexico.
Take a close look at the history ...you will see this fingerprint there in the background..behind several layers.
The USA has been one of the biggest supporters of the Soviet UNion....and kept them afloat several times when they would have gone under. Our US State Deparement is anything but Pro American.
THey are pro Buisness and this often means getting in bed with nations which dont like us and would like to see us go down the tubes. The State Departmet going back to the days of Woodrow Wilson was always pro Communist...even in the days of FDR...unto today.
The point that so many people miss is that the history of the world is not written in the Wars ...which is the drivel one gets in the media and public education. THe history of the world is written in its buisness dealings..who is sleeping with whom and why.
I am speaking of Banks, Insurance companys, manufacturers, companys which harness the raw materials/resources, Transport them etc etc. These buisness dealings are what is really happening and govern the future of nations. Not the drivel which passes for news, information, and public education.
When you understand this type of concept and the portent of it ..it changes the way you look at governments, news and informations.
Originally posted by Cruizer
This thread has degenerated yet more into nothing remotely like the original topic Sheesh!! Everybody knows the Commies suck and the only ones still clinging to the belief that the old days were better are the deluded and the old Sovs that need the reinforcement of familiar times.
On topic- it doesn't matter what toys Iran gets from Russia or anybody. They don't possess the training on a scale remotely like any of the western powers or the tenacity of the IDF.
Give 'em M-1s and F-15s against our M-1s and F-15 and we'll still beat 'em. Same goes for the IDF.
Originally posted by Cruizer
Well owning to the fact that literally all the US trained pilots and maintenaince personnel that knew the intricasies of the F-14 left when the iatollah came in they were handicapped severly.
The planes had their weapons systems sabotaged by either departing Grumman techs or pro-Shah Iranian techs to not be able to fire missiles. With all the spares meant for Iran being never sent only a few planes at a time were ever in the air. Planes were canibalized to keep other flying. To say maintenaince was a problem was an understatement.
It's rather redundant to make any determinations as to any successes or failures of them in combat due to the hyperbole from both Iran and Iraq during that conflict.
At any rate no US trained pilots were in the mix so it was more a case of dumb versus dumber.
Vegas sure wouldn't want to give odds on Iranians in F-14s coming out on top of Israelis or Americans in F-15s today. They'd get creamed.
Originally posted by Cruizer
Well orangetom it could be possible. I have to wonder why they never commenced any type of "trade" with Cuba. Being that there's no history of dead Americans in combat since Spanish American War like there is in Vietnam I find that curious too.
Originally posted by JamesinOz2
Just going off on a tangent thats kind of relevant to this thread, I think that history books written one hundred years hence will say that WW!!! began with the first gulf war in '91,
1979 Feb 11, Followers of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini seized power in Iran, nine days after the religious leader returned to his home country following 15 years of exile. Premier Bakhtiar resigned.
1979 Feb 14, Adolph Dubs, the U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, was kidnapped in Kabul by Muslim extremists and killed in a shootout between his abductors and police.
1979 Feb 14, Armed guerrillas attacked the U.S. embassy in Tehran.
1979 Mar 22, Israeli parliament approved a peace treaty with Egypt.
1979 Mar 26, The Camp David peace treaty was signed by Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin and Egyptian President Anwar Sadat at the White House
1979 Jun 16, Moslem Brotherhood killed 62 sheiks in Aleppo, Syria
1979 Jun 28, OPEC raised oil prices 24%.
1979 Jul 16, Saddam Hussein succeeded Premier al-Bakr and became president of Iraq and chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council (RCC). He established a multilayered security system with 3-5 secret police units. He later put his son Qusai in charge of his 10,000 member Special Guards
1979 Sep 22, A 2-3 kiloton thermonuclear device was set off in the waters off Bouvet Island, a little-visited possession of Norway located between the bottom of South Africa and the Prince Astrid Coast of Antarctica. It was speculated to have been set off by either Israel, South Africa or Taiwan.
1979 Nov 4, The US Embassy was taken over by Iranian students and a hostage crisis began. 90 people, including 63 Americans, were taken hostage at the American embassy in Teheran, Iran, by militant student followers of Ayatollah Khomeini who demanded the return of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi to Iran for trial. He was undergoing medical treatment in New York City. The students held 52 American hostages for 444 days, and were released on the day of the inauguration President Ronald Reagan, January 20, 1981.
1979 Nov 16, Some 200 armed men and women, Mahadists, seized the Grand Mosque in Mecca. They denounced the monarchy and demanded an end to corrupting modernization and "foreign ways." French special forces shot dead all the Wahhabi extremists.
1979 Nov 21, A mob attacked the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan, killing two Americans.
1979 Dec 2, Some 2,000 Libyans ransacked the US embassy at Tripoli, Libya, chanting support for the radical Islamic regime that took power in Iran earlier in the year.
1979 Dec 27, Soviet forces seized control of Afghanistan after a 2nd leftist coup. A Soviet backed coup ousted leftists and put a more pro-Moscow regime in power in Kabul. Babrak Karmal (1929-1996) became the new puppet leader and Soviet troops bolstered his rule against Muslim resistance fighters. Hafizullah Amin, who was overthrown and executed, was replaced by Babrak Karmal. Some 15,000 Soviet soldiers reportedly died along with 1 million Afghans.
1979 In Iran Germany began to build a 1,000-megawatt light-water nuclear reactor at Bushehr. Germany later abandoned the project and it was given over to Russia.
Originally posted by Cruizer
Ok the bottom line is that if an Iraqi got a lucky hit on the F/A 18 it was just that- a fluke.
One kill don't make no air superiority or turn the tide of a battle. MiG 25s did not dominate the battle field in Iraq so I completely reject any portrayal of it as some super plane.
As for the quality and mission role of the MiG 25 anyone may believe what they wish.
Throwing statistics produced by propaganda-driven states falls short when compared with accounts from the individuals who were participants in history.
Belenko was straight forward about the good and poor points of the Foxbat. "It was a remarkably easy to maintain plane with thought given for normal servicing simplicity. The cockpit was well laid out and visibility was decent. It had a good auto-pilot too."
"1st you must realize that we truly believed the B-70 was coming along.
Hell, it was being publicly test flown for just that effect. The political officer showed us films of it flying. We knew the SR-71 was flying because they tracked it on radar every time it was in range."
They acknowledge that it was a real and present threat and that the B-70 would outclass everything they had.
They were actually of the belief that the SR-71 was watching them day and night. The paranoia ran deep. The B-70 pre-dated the SR-71 with information leaked to the Soviets in 1960, a time before the Blackbird was for real. So of course the B-70 was a threat. It wasn't cancelled until 1967, long after the MiG 25 was flying.
The political officers told the pilots that they didn't believe the B-70 was cancelled. It had to be some sort of ruse because just because one crashed in testing wouldn't be reason enough to abandon it and the Americn capitalists had plenty of money to fund building them.
The MiG 25 was a throw-together crate cobbled up out of the desperation of OUR Cold War propaganda.
The USSR and the USA swallowed each others propaganda! No MiG 25 was supposed to fly at Mach 2.5 and do 5 G manuevers and neither was any American ship.
I can tell you without doubt that Duke Cunningham and Steve Ritchie both manuevered against MiGs at that rate of G and more- not at Mach 2, of course!
Point is the MiG 25 was prohibited from the aforementioned Mach numbers at any speed!
Viktor related the stories that led to those prohibitions that never made the western news. Lots of MiG 25 jocks cashed in their chips thinking they could throw their crate around like it was a MiG 17.
"If the tanks are full there was so much weight in the wings that they would tear off if you manuevered above 2.2"
During training and familiarization the Sovs drove the pilots 12 hours a day 7 days a week in some misguided effort to make them "magically become proficient." "The MiG 25 is an unforgiving aircraft and many pilots lost their lives too from being too tired to compensate for its idiosyncracies."
He had been an instructor in MiG 17s and SU 19s and thouroughly familiar with the 25.
When I met him he had already been exposed to F-14s, 15, and 16s in ride-alongs. He was blown away by their abject superiority in electronic, fire control, armament and navagational systems that completely eclipsed anything he'd ever seen. Technically he was never supposed to have hands on stick but....
As for pure dash speed the MiG 25 that raced over Israel from Egypt in 1973 at Mach 3.2 led the Americans to believe that this was its normal operation speed.
"Nothing was farther from the truth. We were warned to never exceed Mach 2.5.
EVERY time it flew that fast (Mach 2.8+) the engines overheat and burn up. You (the Americans) didn't realize that every time a MiG flew that fast the engines were ruined and the pilot was lucky to land in one piece!"
"In interception excercises the poor range limited our take off for intercept so severely that it was a coin throw if we could reach altitude, simulate missile firing and make it back to land.
Sadly, some pilots did not make it. We would have had to wait for an enemy to be nearly overhead before we took off to ensure our ability to return to base.
It would have been a true gamble if a wing of B-70 appeared near our base.
Certainly we could not have intercepted them all.
A few minor course corrections and the use of afterburner and we would have the red fuel warning light before we were even set up to shoot."
"You know when I escaped I flew out of Chuguyevka with full tanks- 14 tons of fuel- and used all but about 50 US gallons in just 500 miles! And this was sweating out a best-economy mode. Unlimited afterburner use needed for an intercept restricted us to no more than 300 kilometers( 186 miles) radius."
So what eventual modifications and/or improvement came in the way of missiles later, as of 1976 the MiG 25 could not have intercepted the SR-71
and it would have been a crap shoot to destroy a wing of B-70s at 80,000 feet.
The hoopla and propaganda of how good the MiG 25 was always came from the press once Belenko had educated our misguided military analists.
After 1976 every guy that went through training knew what to expect from the Foxbat.
He insisted the MiG was not a fighter and not an air superiority plane. It was an interceptor, nothing more.
"It did that job reasonable well but it would be virtually helpless against even the F-4.
" Viktor ended our interview with- "No F-14, F-15 or F-16 pilot need fear the MiG 25.
Every system and countermeasure they have is superior to the equal ones of the MiG. Any fighter pilot shot down by a MiG 25 would be either unlucky or asleep."
Originally posted by JamesinOz2
Just going off on a tangent thats kind of relevant to this thread, I think that history books written one hundred years hence will say that WW!!! began with the first gulf war in '91,
We're probably about half way through WW!!! now