Hugo Chavez speaking at the UN Against American Imperialism and Bush the Devil

Originally posted by worldwatcher
while he makes a clear difference between the govt and the american people in speeches, doesn't he and the people supporting his rantings realize that whatever affects the govt will affect the people???

Whos gov & whos people, ours? I think it is hi time that world leaders start standing up to Bush. We live in the greatest country on the planet and I am proud of it, but I am sick to death of what this gov has done to it in our name. Evil needs to be challenged no matter who is commiting it, even the president of the united states of america. Our last president took such a beating in the media, yet the world praised him. This president is a complete failure and our media barely touches on the subject. If they even offer fair critisizm, its the "liberal media" again. If no one will stand up to him here, maybe someone from somewhere else should.

did you read that post carefully, I was speaking of what happened in my country with a failed leftist system and how that is what will play out in Venezuela, so there is no link to go along with that, except for you to research failed socialist, leftist and marxist regimes.

wait a minute??? So there goes democracy then, you want other world leaders to tell our government what to do???

How about we the people tell our elected officials to tell our congress people to tell our president what we want???

Lazy ass americans that we are, we talk a good story, but how many of people supporting Chavez's rant voted, and not just in major elections, but local elections too, how many of them were out in the streets protesting war when war protests were the thing?

We can't do for ourselves, so now you want foreign leaders to come intervene here... hmmm wonder what that would be like?

btw, I've seen the pro chavez videos, here another
www.youtube.com...

See the passion of the venezuelans and the sacrfices they make for change????? What are we doing??

[edit on 9-21-2006 by worldwatcher]

Originally posted by worldwatcher
did you read that post carefully, I was speaking of what happened in my country with a failed leftist system and how that is what will play out in Venezuela, so there is no link to go along with that, except for you to research failed socialist, leftist and marxist regimes.

I did read it, and I understood your context, however you said what is happening there right now. It is one thing to say that those things could potentially happen due to other failed systems that happen to be similar, however to state they are happening right now is inaccurate. Part of the problem with socialism is the people who run the show. Last I checked, his country was a democracy - at least he was elected democratically. I believe that capatalism by itself will eventually fail as well. I believe that a democratic society should have a healthy blend of socialism and capitalism. I have seen no evidence to suggest otherwise in regard to Venezuela.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
wait a minute??? So there goes democracy then, you want other world leaders to tell our government what to do???

How about we the people tell our elected officials to tell our congress people to tell our president what we want???

Lazy ass americans that we are, we talk a good story, but how many of people supporting Chavez's rant voted, and not just in major elections, but local elections too, how many of them were out in the streets protesting war when war protests were the thing?

We can't do for ourselves, so now you want foreign leaders to come intervene here... hmmm wonder what that would be like?

btw, I've seen the pro chavez videos, here another
www.youtube.com...

Whoa, hold on there. I never said that they should tell us what to do (as if that isn't our standing policy over the last 5 years :@@. I said that they should stand up to Bush. I have voted in every election since I have been of age to do so. I have attended rallies and protests. We the people demand change, but what the hell are our elected leaders doing about it?? As a member of the Democratic party, it is almost pathetic the low level of opposition to this administration. Especially with regard to TORTURE!!!
We are all human beings living on this rock together, and until we all realize that (our gov included) we will continue to kill each other. This gov has overstepped EVERY boundry in regard to its authority. If our elections cannot be considered reliable here, and our so called elected leaders will not carry out the will of the people, who else to challenge unchecked power then the other world leaders?? We are a mere 5% of the population here, we DONT run the world. We tell other countries what to do and how to do it ALL the time. Someone finally has the guts to stand up to the bully and people are saying that he is telling US what to do? I think not!

some light reading..... many shades of gray...


www.militaresdemocraticos.com...

venezuela-usa.blogspot.com...

do democratic elections involved guns and attacks on politicians and their aides?
www.angus-reid.com...

I'm sure he'll get "democratically" elected again and then "democratically" stay in power till 2030 as he said he would.

Originally posted by worldwatcher

btw, I've seen the pro chavez videos, here another
www.youtube.com...

See the passion of the venezuelans and the sacrfices they make for change????? What are we doing??

[edit on 9-21-2006 by worldwatcher]

I am not sure the point you are trying to make with that video as it appears to be the Bolivian Revolution, pro Chavez, or am I just an idiot? It really doesn't help when I dont speak spanish, or the fact that heavy metal played to any visual will make things seem a lot more violent. Funny thing is, I could splice video from the US together from various protests and achieve the same thing. I am really not trying to argue with you as I have always respected your viewpoints, however I want someone to show me some FACTS on why Chavez is so bad. Not propaganda films. I dont need to watch pro Chavez propaganda films to have the opinion that I have of him.

After reviewing the whole Hugo situation, I have came to the conclusion that this is the best thing that could have happened to Republicans since John Kerry!

Think about it, Sadamm, UBL, Ahminajad, Hugo, and terrorist worldwide, have taken up the Democrat talking points. This is freaking awesome! I love it!

In a couple months when the Democrats fail to take the House and the Senate, they will do the normal thing Democrats do, which is blame rigged elections, or come up with a conspiracy that lowered gas prices.

Is this what the Democratic Party has become? Joining forces with the enemies of the United States of America does not win elections!

BTW, threatening to buy bullets to assist in the assassination the President of the United States of America is still not cool.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
some light reading..... many shades of gray...


www.militaresdemocraticos.com...

venezuela-usa.blogspot.com...

do democratic elections involved guns and attacks on politicians and their aides?
www.angus-reid.com...

I'm sure he'll get "democratically" elected again and then "democratically" stay in power till 2030 as he said he would.

Thanks for those..........but I am even more confused. The first link is obviously anti Chavez from a site that I have no idea on the validity of the info. The second is a blog, not a news source, and the third is validating my statements. The "attacks on the opposition" seem to be heresay. The polling data showed that 58% of the population would vote for him again. How exactly is that not democratic?? I bet you any amount of money that we would have elected Clinton again if he was able to run, however that unfortunately wasn't the case here. I have to take off for now, but this has been fun. I will be back in after bit.

It is pro chavez, I said others added other pro chavez links and here was another.. I'm fair with showing and having both sides of the arguments in the thread, like I said Chavez is a mixed bags of nuts, good and bad... did you see my comment under the video... it's regarding the Venezuelan people, and how they change government and show their passion for change... they take to the streets and sacrifice their lives to make their voices heard... are we doing anything close to that??? obviously the majority of us don't feel that strongly against Bush or our current path to want to take the streets for change.

I'm not following... standing up to Bush... what does that mean for us? So they shoot off at Bush or who ever is in office and then Bush still does what he want to do anyway?

I don't know I don't like the idea of Jerry Springer politics and world relations, but whatever...

oh poll numbers don't lie??
btw fun.. back and forth, back later


[edit on 9-21-2006 by worldwatcher]

So Chavez calls Bush a devil and says Bush wants to kill him. Bush calls Islamic Fundamentalists evil and says they want to kill non-Muslims. Islam calls the Catholic pope evil and wants to kill him. Chavez lives in a 70% Catholic country and visits Islamic Iran offering all sorts of buddy buddy talk. Iran's president then comes to the US and says "hey lets be friends".

So the axis of evil wants to buddy up with "the devil" while Chavez wants to buddy up with the axis of evil. Meanwhile Santa Chavez comes to town in Harlem and gives everyone cheap oil so they can then go spend the extra cash on a new Nintendo game or upgrade their cable TV. I'm sure his gift will work wonders with the Harlem voters who just heard from their Democratic leaders that Chavez needs to shut his mouth. So if they love Chavez now they'll have to vote Republican because those evil Democrats told Santa Chavez to stick it.

Yeah sorry, lots of bull---- flying around in this world.

Just my half penny to add to the discussion:

I don't like Bush as a person at all, and few of his policies. I think he's a poor leader for this country.

I also think, however, that Chavez acted like a clown at the United Nations. He was in a professional situation and he behaved unprofessionally. And I don't appreciate the words he chose. That in fact is an insult to the country he was visiting (the US).

Originally posted by worldwatcher
some light reading..... many shades of gray...


www.militaresdemocraticos.com...

venezuela-usa.blogspot.com...

do democratic elections involved guns and attacks on politicians and their aides?
www.angus-reid.com...

I'm sure he'll get "democratically" elected again and then "democratically" stay in power till 2030 as he said he would.

My friend, these are the worse sources you could have ever gotten. The militaresdemocraticos site, was created for and by the military officials who took power from Chavez for 2 days in 2001.

I am a Venezuelan and I sick and tired of repeating myself on this forum. Chavez was democratically elected. The Carter Center, the European Nations, The organization of American States and a ton of other countries and organizations supervised every election to date since Chavez got into power. Not only they all agree that they were all 100% clean, they all agree that Venezuela has one of the best, most technologically advanced and fraud proof voting systems around. The is the main reason why the oposition wants to go back to the pen and paper voting system they used to have before Chavez, so they can mess with the elections. Al those organizations will be coming back to Venezuela in december to supervise the elections again.

Now to the video you posted. Most of the images on that video are from the coup on 2001. The dead people shown on that video are all Chavez suporters. When you see the Police with the blue uniform shooting at people, that was the police department controlled by the oposition shooting at Chavez suporters the 12th and 13th of April 2001 when people were demostrating their support for Chavez afte the coup and asking for him back. When you see the Army holding back the protestors, that is the national guard trying to keep the oposition and Pro-Chavez rallies separate because the oposition loves scheduling rallies very close to where the pro-Chavez rallies are and then diverting the oposition rallies directly to the pro-Chavez rallies because they should also be able to use that same spot as the pro-Chavez. Chavez rallies are predominantly red. Most of Chavez suporters wear red to the rallies are you can see from this video www.youtube.com...
incidently, none of the agressors shown in your video were wearing red. This is because the media has taken to themselves to portray oposition aggression as if it was done by Chavez supporters. All that agression in that video was cause by the oposition.

Now if you want to get rid so some of your brain washing and ignorance I recommend you look for a video called "The revolution will not be televised" made by an independent Irish group who was in Venezuela for the coup. There you will see a lot of the clips used in your video and you will see where they come from.

Until then, take care

sheesh... read the whole thread..

I'm showing the chavez supporters too.... I'm providing links to both side of the issue, to try to share that it is not a clear cut black and white issue. While I have personal distate for Chavez, I still give him credit for what he did accomplish and for his charisma and speaking abilities

some of you try to portray it as if Chavez has 100% support in Venezuela, I'm giving you all information to see for yourselves that he doesn't. btw, I know there are few more opposition parties out there, just cant find their sites.

and btw, this sounds real democratic to me

www.zmag.org...
In one of the afternoon’s more surprising announcements, Chavez declared that if elected this December, he himself will call for a referendum in early 2010 to ask Venezuela’s voters if they want him to continue in office until 2012, when his second term would expire, and if approved, if they want to change the constitutions to allow for indefinite reelections of the president. Currently the constitution allows only two consecutive six-year terms for the office of president.

and source, same thing
Bloomberg

another opposition site
www.vcrisis.com.../200509170556

oh but lemme guess, it's all CIA disinformation right?

[edit on 9-21-2006 by worldwatcher]

Originally posted by worldwatcher
sheesh... read the whole thread..

I'm showing the chavez supporters too.... I'm providing links to both side of the issue, to try to share that it is not a clear cut black and white issue. While I have personal distate for Chavez, I still give him credit for what he did accomplish and for his charisma and speaking abilities

some of you try to portray it as if Chavez has 100% support in Venezuela, I'm giving you all information to see for yourselves that he doesn't. btw, I know there are few more opposition parties out there, just cant find their sites.

and btw, this sounds real democratic to me

www.zmag.org...
In one of the afternoon’s more surprising announcements, Chavez declared that if elected this December, he himself will call for a referendum in early 2010 to ask Venezuela’s voters if they want him to continue in office until 2012, when his second term would expire, and if approved, if they want to change the constitutions to allow for indefinite reelections of the president. Currently the constitution allows only two consecutive six-year terms for the office of president.

and source, same thing
Bloomberg

another opposition site
www.vcrisis.com.../200509170556

oh but lemme guess, it's all CIA disinformation right?

[edit on 9-21-2006 by worldwatcher]

again, ignorance and information out of context.

Let me explain (again) the Venezuelan constitution. When Chavez got into power in 1998, he called for the constitution to be rewritten. He asked the group of people who rewrote it to please add the possibility to call a referendum on any political figure, including the president, when half his current term has passed if there is enough people who think he is not doing a good job. Now each term in Venezuela is 6 years and as it stands, you can only serve as president for 2 terms. If 3 years into any of your terms the people from the country think you suck at your job, they can call a referendum, vote one whether the president or any political figure should stay at his job or not, and if the people decide you should go, thats the end of the road for you.

Now that we got that straight, lets go to the other stuff you posted. Chavez has around 70% acceptance in Venezuela right now so it is more than likely that he will win again in December. That means that in 2010 (3 years after he takes office again) people can call a referendum on him and we dont like him, thats the end of his second term. What he said, is that in 2010, he will call a referendum on himself and if the people decide that he should stay in office, he will propose a change to the constitution so that anyone can run for president for more than 2 terms. The people would also get to vote on whether they approve of the change to the constitution or not. If we agree to it, all that means is that anyone can run for president for more than 2 terms. It does not mean that person will just stay there, it means that he is allowed to run again and if we vote for him again, he gets to be president again. All the rules stay the same, it is just the 2 term limmit that gets lifted. What is antidemocratic about that?

excuse me??? Courtesy is mandatory please.

how about you read carefully and understand the context of what is being said. Did you read either of the full sources? how about the last one?

Chavez is proposing to now change what he originally said, to allow himself to stay in power beyond the 2 terms. How is that out of context??

oh yeah, but I forgot any opposition to Chavez is CIA disinformation and CIA propaganda.. my bad.

1999 Venezuela's constitutional change has observers wondering what's next




[edit on 9-21-2006 by worldwatcher]

Originally posted by worldwatcher

Chavez is proposing to now change what he originally said, to allow himself to stay in power beyond the 2 terms.

[edit on 9-21-2006 by worldwatcher]

still do not understand how this is not democratic or what point you are trying to make with this.

changing your country's constitution to allow you to remain in power and extend your term is not democratic.

If Bush were to attempt the same thing today, there would be outrage at the notion, anti democratic claims would be made against him.

Chavez is just like Musharraf, democratically elected dictators via military coups. It doesn't make them democratically elected when they use the military to get into power. And 52 or 54% voter turnout doesn't mean that the entire country backs him.

oh yeah but anyone obviously opposing Chavez is part of the CIA disinformation campaign against him.

tell me Venezuela doesn't have poor, oppressed and impoverished people, tell me Venezuela doesn't have slums and face problems of any other country, then I'll tell you Chavez's brand of government works.

btw.. more fodder to read to make help people make up their own minds and see it aint clear cut with Chavez
Either they believe in democracy and believe in the constitution or they don’t!



[edit on 9-21-2006 by worldwatcher]

Originally posted by worldwatcher

It doesn't make them democratically elected when they use the military to get into power. And 52 or 54% voter turnout doesn't mean that the entire country backs him.

This is irrelevant as in any democracy, you dont need the entire country to back you, majority rules. Look at voter turnout here in 1996, it wasn't much better - if not worse. A few posts ago you were making a statement about their people and thier willingness to take action when they need to change their leadership while at the same time saying how low voter turnout in your own district was, is this not a double standard?

I am pleased that we have someone who is from Venezuela here that can offer insight to this as I know only so much.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
changing your country's constitution to allow you to remain in power and extend your term is not democratic.

If Bush were to attempt the same thing today, there would be outrage at the notion, anti democratic claims would be made against him.

Chavez is just like Musharraf, democratically elected dictators via military coups. It doesn't make them democratically elected when they use the military to get into power. And 52 or 54% voter turnout doesn't mean that the entire country backs him.

oh yeah but anyone obviously opposing Chavez is part of the CIA disinformation campaign against him.

tell me Venezuela doesn't have poor, oppressed and impoverished people, tell me Venezuela doesn't have slums and face problems of any other country, then I'll tell you Chavez's brand of government works.

ok, you just said all this and you expect me not to call you ignorant? When the hell did Chavez use the military to get into power? I repeat myself ELECTIONS SUPERVISED BY THE WHOLE WORLD!. The coup was against Chavez, not led by him!

in democracy, mayority rules, so if his support was 51% of the country, that is still the mayority.

Any changes to our constitution has to be approved by the people in elections so all he is doing is asking us if we approve or not. Just because you have only 2 terms in the US it does not mean anything other than that is not democratic. In many european countries you have more than 2 terms. Democracy stays as long as people vote him into office and he does not take it by force.

Venezuela does have problems and it does have slums. What it does not have is oppressed people. Have you even heard of Venezuela before jonining this topic? In Venezuela no one goes to jail for wearing anti Chavez t-shirts like the do in the US if the wear anything against Bush. We do not send anyone to jail for expressing their opinion.

That there are some politicians in jail, sure but politicians in prision is not the same as political prisioners. Everyone who participated in the coup against Chavez is right now in the US and the US government refusses to extradite them. If you want to talk about my country please inform yourself. just by saying that Chavez used the military to get into power shows that you don't have the slightest idea of the situation there or the history of Venezuela.