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If you're not doing anything wrong, there's nothing to fear...

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posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 08:35 PM
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Ok, this is going to get me flamed, but here goes:

If the choice is between not having my phone calls monitored, not being subjected to searches, not having closed circuit TVs and loudspeakers, not being tracked on a database and not having my financial records checked, but having the potential that I or my family might die because some terrorist a**hole doesn't like my airline, or the fact I don't worship Allah, or that teenage thugs with nothing better to do can pick my pocket or throw cigarette butts on the ground unchecked, or having increased security and surveillance methods and living (and continue to live) in a safer, social society, then sign me up for option two.

And do you know why? If a law comes up that I don't like, I can lobby my local member. I can communicate in the press. I can legally protest in a non-violent manner. I can vote people out of office. Hell, I can even form my own political party and run for public office. In fact, we have idiots who publicly advocate shooting public figures as a cheerful reminder that American's have the right to bear arms, can use them to revolt, and that everyone should start stockpiling weapons (thank god I live in Australia...). Have our fellow ATS members been locked up over this? Where's the big brother response to this? Given the content of this website over the years, you'd think multiple members would be carted off to Guantanamo Bay sharpish. Doesn't happen though, does it? Because there are bigger threats to a Government than you and your junior mints. The current situation is vastly different to the thought crimes that Orwell described. If Big Brother were that good, religious extremism wouldn't be the problem it is today.

% of population upset by increased security and monitoring - probably in the order of 10% (though more like 80% on ATS, but a conspiracy website is hardly representative of the wider population). % of population upset by planes flying into buildings and bombs going off in underground railways - a damn sight higher than 10% if the Government doesn't do anything about it. And the only way to prevent such things happening is good intel, and increased security procedures. So the biggest risk to Government is actually not increasing security and intel monitoring. Because people will remove the Government from office one way or another if they don't think the Government is doing enough to protect their personal safety.

I know most people on here don't agree with what I am saying. Having been involved in responses to terrorist acts, and seen mangled bodies, and devastated parents, wives, husbands and children, I couldn't care less if a small minority of people are upset by these supposed infractions on their civil liberties. My right, and other peoples right, to be alive, and live in peaceful society, far outweigh any concerns I have with these new security measures.

Also, I would like to point out that no revolution happened in Australia. We are still part of the Commonwealth, we still have the Queen of England as our Head of State. We evolved from "a god-forsaken prison colony" to what we are today because the people peacefully shaped the political landscape of today. Maybe some people on ATS would like to try that first, before starting an armed revolution. There are enough people on here that agree with what the OP has said. So start a political party where ever you are. Speak out publicly. Do something positive and pro-active, rather than stew in your own indignation. We can go around this buoy as many times as you want, but it won't change anything unless you do something (and I don't mean shoot people, just to be clear). I don't have to do anything because I'm quite happy. If anything, I'd like to see tighter security procedures. But that's just me.

I know, before you post, what the responses will be. I'm an idiot, I'm a sheep, I'm a Government disinfo agent. In fact, I'm not even sure why I took the time to write this because I know how I'll be viewed. But I did. It is how I feel. I wish you all the best should you actually move into the public arena and try to make a difference with your beliefs.




posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 11:41 PM
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Willard856,
Why would anyone flame your well thought out response. You gave perfectly fine reasoning to your personal opinions(IMHO). It's a viable stance if you ask me, as I don't live Aus. Therefore, very good knowledge can be gained by having a discussion( and not a flamewar) with you. If I may, I would like to ask for some of your opinions on why you choose your personal stance though(relating to your region, where you personaly live). What are your thoughts exactly on goverment intrusion, or more specificly where do you personally draw the line? What would you consider to be too much? Does personal responsibility out-weigh goverment responsibility, when can the goverment dictate was is good and bad( such as prohibition, do you agree with a goverment telling you if drinking is good or bad)?

When I speak of gun rights, I'm not advocating the killing of elected officials. I am mearly stating that I belive a person should have the rights to protect him/herself, his/her family and his/her community using any means nessesary. I belive that if a threat is true and real, it's not just the goverments problem but also every citizens problem. What can one do when the legal system fails though? Or what if the goverment outright fails in it's duty but resists the people pleas through the normal channels or reason( whatever the current form of laws/court system may be in that persons area)? Do you just kow tow to the higher powers, and hope they leave you alone by being obedient to a system you dissagree with?

To tell you the truth, my knowledge on the history and formation of your goverment is very limited( got to love the public school system, they must have felt Australia wasn't very important compared to our own history....
). If you know of any good links offhand about the Australian sytem of goverment( or even some basic history) I will gladly read it to gain a better understanding of where you are coming from for a better conversation.

What is your viewpoint on our( the USA's) past election that 50% of our population thinks it was rigged in favor of one party through vote tampering? What would you do differently than what we are doing currently? If you think it's all conspiricy that's fine as well, but at least give your opinion why, as I'm interested on an outside opinion.

I look forward to your responce, or anyone from england as well(as England has an overtly big brother-esque situation currently...more so than the USA).


BTW- I like your avatar Willard, absolutely no UFO's



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 11:59 PM
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Hey Lord (hmm, should I be kneeling lol)

Thanks for the response. I have to admit when I saw a response on this thread I was preparing for the worst. Hate to say but these days on ATS if you come across as being too supportive of things like increased surveillance, you can get some pretty nasty responses. So I thank-you for being the type of member that I joined ATS to talk to - one who acknowledges that people may have a different viewpoint from their own, and wants to learn why they think that way.

Due to the time zone difference here, I'm about to head off from work (only chance I get to be on ATS these days is at work - maybe that's where I draw line at monitoring
), but I will answer your questions tomorrow, or tonight if I can get Junior to sleep early enough.

Thanks again for taking an interest!



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 12:54 AM
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I'll get a kick out of this so here it go's




If you're not doing anything wrong, then there's nothing to fear...

Even if you are doing something good you can have fears, we don't live in a safe bubble, anything can happen, people got killed for nothing, new Orleans, people got killed there by police just for being there, people also ended up on death row got but were later found innocent, violence usually does not relate to good or bad and it chooses all forms, all it takes is for you to be at the wrong time in the wrong place, and tag you're it, you get busted for nothing, nothing is perfect, there is extortion, corruption, interest, and greed , all running at high levels in high places.



Drug Testing - If you're not doing illegal drugs, or legal drugs in an illegal situation, then there's no reason to fear mandatory drug testing.

I know, smoking a joint makes you a terrorist, because of the homeland security act.
Such acts are included under domestic terrorism.



Warrant less Wiretapping - If you're not discussing illegal matters, or conversing with terrorists, there's no reason to fear having your conversations monitored.

Except privacy, and of course discussing about a usual conversation and having the fear that you may have said something on the phone that can be misunderstood.
For example you may say, I can feel tonight I'll be a bomb, of course you were referring to the fact that you are going to go clubbing tonight with your friends and that you are going to be explosive on the dance ring by dancing and drinking and having fun to the maximum, but oops they understood different.
Remember, people got in trouble for filming a damn trash can?



Warrant less Search and Seizure - If you're not keeping contraband in your home, or committing illegal acts there, then there's no reason not to let the authorities come search your home whenever they want.

This can create trouble, because the officers that come and search your home , since they are doing it with out warrants and they can retain anything, they may feel free to do what they want.
They may chose to come in your home and turn you place upside down, and mock you while their at it.
Plus this law would put some officers on a state of"I do what I want , I am covered by the law" it's not the first time it happens.



Detention Without Charges or Representation - If you aren't a suspected terrorist, then there's no reason to be afraid of people being detained indefinitely, without legal representation, a trial, charges, or even familial contact to let them know what happened to you.

Mistakes can be made, in fact mistakes were made, you could be one, you never know, maybe you were filming a trash can and now you cant explain your self in a court of law, because you are not allowed a trial, and now you got to spend the rest of your life in a detention facility simply because you have filmed a trash can or simply because they found you just loved to study 747's , hey it may be only a hobby but not any more, not with the new homeland security act
remember, being a terrorist starts from smoking a joint



Torture of Detainees for Information - If you aren't withholding vital information from the government, then there's no reason to fear being tortured.

Wrongly accused with out being able to stand trial, and than being tortured and knowing your innocent.



Warrantless financial record searches - If you aren't funding terrorists, there's no reason to worry about them checking your records.

it's enough to fund some Asian company and you are on the list.


Critics of the Government being deported - If you're not criticizing the government, there's no reason to worry about being deported.

.......and finally, being deported for using your constitutional rights.

All mentioned by you leads to a perfect police state, if you would like to live in such a sistem please sign up for an emigrant aplication to north corea.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 01:44 AM
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Remember, people got in trouble for filming a damn trash can?


In the USA, or another country, forgive me but I never heard of this case? Any links to news sources, just wondering what it's all about is all?



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 01:53 AM
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Originally posted by LordBaskettIV

Remember, people got in trouble for filming a damn trash can?


In the USA, or another country, forgive me but I never heard of this case? Any links to news sources, just wondering what it's all about is all?

About those kids that were interogated and draged in cort because they belived they flimed a trash can to place bombs later there, you know film your location and suroundings, make a plan....etc, the camera turned to the trash can for a few secounds, what they were doing in fact is were messing around with the cam filming all over the place in a rolercoster park.
you filming around? You must be a terrorist

Those kids got humiliated, got detained , got hursh interogation, but their luck was that they went to cort, they got a trial, with out one they would be behind bars.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 02:27 AM
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All mentioned by you leads to a perfect police state, if you would like to live in such a sistem please sign up for an emigrant aplication to north corea.



Pepsi, did you bother to read the posting?

[edit on 06/20/9 by Katolu]



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 02:53 AM
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What struck me as I read this was the fact that three posters quickly jumped to the conclusion that the OP was advocating the very thing he was denouncing. Yes there were some apologies after the error was realized but it gave me pause and brought to mind this:

Are we truly digesting what we read/see/hear? Or have we gotten to the point where we have carefully crafted responses ready to go when we see something we think we may disagree with? I'm sure I've done it, even though I strive to read and understand a poster's position prior to offering my point of view.

I've digressed enough.

To the topic. My perspective on this is anecdotal. My parents have voted Republican their entire lives, mainly because the GOP generally supports the 2nd Amendment. I've had numerous discussions with my dad since 2000 asking him if choosing a candidate solely on their support of one freedom whilst choking just about all others is worth it. Sadly, he is of the mind that the 2nd Amendment is the only way to reign in a corrupt government. When I postulate that the government, after wearing down the Constitution and Bill of Rights, would neither want nor need an armed citizenry our discussions usually end in the "pry my gun from my cold, dead hands" mantra.

What I've gathered from these talks is that he fears change. I think the majority of people do as well. The largest voting segment in the U.S. is the Baby Boomer generation and if a large percent of that group is fearful of change, then no change will occur in the near future.

Sadly, I think it's the fear of the unknown (non-traditional political party) than it is fear of the government.


[edit on 06/20/9 by Katolu]



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well, I think all of the above dystopian features you mentioned are a bad idea, except for one. I certainly believe,wholeheartedly, that we need much better border security. I would definitely support any kind of legislation that would sure up both our Canadian and Mexican borders. Yes, even NATIONAL BORDER WALLS


Really? That might have worked for the Chinese to keep the Mongolians out, but do you think thats going to make you any more secure?
[edit on 19-9-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 08:51 AM
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I have been thinking on this a long while, but had yet to put it in words. Very well stated. You got my vote.

I think a big part of the problem is that a lot of citizens that I talk and listen to are so mind boggling passive, that those of us willing to act are kind of in shock. They feel they would truley be lost without thier computer, or sports car. They know that if they were targeted that it could be gone. With all the issues happening now, we adopt the "It's their problem ,not mine" attitude. I have also witnessed those who, although they have a greater understanding on what needs to be done, feel that if no one cares then why should they. So I think it works both ways. Or, I should say, it doesn't work both ways.

I readily admit that I am not the most eloquent speaker. I grew up thinking a certain way and that way is crumbling. I am scared and I don't know what to do. Admitting these things is the beginning, for me at least. At least I have opened my eyes and want to do something. The opposing side would (and have, to my face) call this a weakness. But I feel stronger...



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 09:11 AM
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Golly... this thread has seen a lot of activity since last night. I was going to do multiple replies in one post, but there's a lot to say for each response, so I'm going to break these up into smaller posts. The first person I'm going to reply to is LordBaskettIV.


Originally posted by LordBaskettIV

Errrr, now are you saying we should shoot the lobbyists and special interest groups, or were these two seperate thoughts?


According to my constitional rights, yes that is what I'm saying....but only if needed, not because I belive they should be killed for no reason...


Heh! Well, ummm... at least they won't being shot without good reason. However, lobbyists do serve a purpose. Just because one is a lobbyist, doesn't make them a bad person. Quite the contrary, it just means that someone is being paid to be a thorn in a congressman's side. If you name any stance on any viewpoint, and have a few dollars to throw down, you can hire a lobbyist. So you end up with lobbyists who are on one end of the scale, glad-handing, cajoling, threatening, letter-writing, etc, on behalf of Big X (insert random industry name here), and then you have people on the other end doing the same exact thing in favor of Eco-X (insert random hippy cause here).

Now, the problem is that Big-X has more money than Eco-X, and can, thusly, hire more, and more powerful lobbyists. If Eco-X had more money, you can bet that there'd be bills requiring green roofs and cradle to cradle engineering...

...hmmm... maybe the key is to make Eco-X more profitable and desirable than Big-X...

But in any event, people vote with their dollar more often than their actual vote. It's perfectly fine and legal for Big X to hire lobbyists to support their interests. And why not? Lobbyists know who to talk to, they know how the process works, they're a lot less likely to waste time on the wrong bureaucracy than someone who doesn't make pestering congress for something their full-time job. The problem is that people are assisting Big-X in maintaining a steady stream of lobbyists every time they spend money on Big-X.

So really, to be honest, it is the consumer you should blame, not the company. The company is simply doing what any company should do: supporting its own interests. If the consumer insists on purchasing goods and services from a morally and ethically bankrupt organization, and then refuses to excercise their power to vote, then it truly is the consumer who is to blame.



Originally posted by LordBaskettIV
What is good for Alaska, may not ring true in Texas( or any other state in the Union). The federal goverment doesn't seem to care though and they lump us together.


Well, that's kind of their job. The state government is there to preserve its own rights and regulations and laws, but the whole concept of a Federated Republic neccessarily entails the Federal government treating the states themselves as equal parts of a whole.



Originally posted by LordBaskettIV
I know no average person who supports the stance of big buisness and it's lobbyists buying out our elected officials when it's proven to happen.


Well, errr... Actually, you'd be surprised.

Take the defense industry... please! (rimshot) Hah...er... anyway, I think you'd find that many, if not most, of the people who work for a defense contractor are more likely to vote in favor of whichever candidate is going to promise the highest level of military spending (which are typically Republicans), regardless of their other views, because ultimately, what it comes down to is they don't want to experience further layoffs.

Likewise, people who shop at stores belonging to big business are, in fact, voting for big business and whatever policies are in big business' best interests. In a capitalist free-market economy, the dollar represents the ultimate voting power, because such places inevitably provide many many many more distractions that are much much much more fun than sitting around writing letters to a congressman and reading the fine print on hundreds of pieces of legislation per day.

And to tell the truth, I really don't have much of a problem with that. It's the way it should be...or, maybe not the way it should be, but it gives us exactly the government and laws that we deserve, and what happens to us thereafter is an indirect consequence of our consumer choices. The consumers have an incredible amount of power, they just fail to realize it and act upon it. If there were consumer unions, you can bet they too would soon have their own lobbyists.



Originally posted by LordBaskettIV
Politicians are not "Gods"....If someone actually was gunning for them, they would be dead. But most people are lazy, and do nothing.


Errr... I was actually speaking figuratively. As in, "Hey, Kinky Friedman is gunning for Rick Perry." Kinky isn't literally holding a gun and shooting at Rick Perry, he's just trying really really hard to get Rick Perry out of office. For those who have no idea who I'm talking about, Texas is currently having the single wierdest gubernatorial race ever.


Originally posted by LordBaskettIV
Again, i'm not saying we should slaughter our politicians, but they should at least have that fear, if they were to mess up bad enough in the running of our goverment, we will protest, we will revolt.


Well, they shouldn't have the constant fear of being slaughtered if they screw up. A government under duress is going to operate just as poorly as a citizen under duress. They should fear for their jobs constantly, to be sure. Their lives? Not really. Not until the system becomes broken to the point where uprising is inevitable and the only option left, after all talking has failed, is brute force. But way before that time comes, I would (I hope) expect to see voter turnout rise to above 75%.

If you ever get the chance, check out a musical called "1776". Despite its light-hearted singing, it gives a VERY sobering picture of just how very close our nation came to not rising up against King George, despite all the atrocities being committed. It was, quite literally, down to one person's vote, and the only reason that person eventually decided to vote in favor of Independence is because they didn't want to go down in history as the one person who said "no" that cost the deciding vote. It will also give you a newfound distrust of people from the Carolinas, as they refused to sign the Declaration of Independence until Jefferson and Adams agreed to remove the clause abolishing slavery.


Okay, will answer Willard's next



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 09:20 AM
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I think this is a great thread and I WATSed the OP for it. Some great replies as well. I'll still maintain that the best thing to do at this point is to vote for change. If I may be permitted to employ a much overused metaphor, rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic is probably not the best strategy. Which, I believe, is what we're doing if we vote for a major party candidate, especially at the national level.

The OP makes a great point: Voting isn't valued because it isn't earned. And I don't have a great answer for that one, although I'm not opposed in principle to a mandatory service period. But I can see some major issues surrounding that, as well. (another thread, perhaps)

We have a very messy, chaotic form of government, which just happens to be the best one anyone's come up with to date. Someone mentioned his father being a single-issue voter relating to the Second Amendment. And there's a lot of folks out there that are single-issue voters. Which plays right into the hands of candidates, especially when you look at issues like gay marriage or flag burning or displaying the 10 Commandments. As long as you're on the "right side" of those issues, the single-issue voter doesn't care what else you do. Which IMO is bad.

And as long as I'm on my soapbox, let me slam the idea of "getting more people to vote". Every election year, as we draw closer and closer to election day, there's a big hue and cry to "bring out the vote" or >shudder< "rock the vote". As far as I'm concerned, if you haven't taken the time to know who you're voting for and why, stay home.

Sorry for going off-topic. On topic- yes there's much to fear. But it can be fixed. And it will take time and it will be hard. And it will require diligence and it will require sacrifice, even if the sacrifice is as trivial as taking the time to self-educate about what's going on. And it will not get fixed (unfortunately) until we reach a tipping point where enough people finally say "enough".



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 09:31 AM
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i found out that this was a total rubbish saying back in school. i suspected something was happening to me, and tried to find out for certain. something was happening to me and has followed me all my life from those moments.

yep you never need to do one thing wrong, you just need to not fit in with norms or some other reason, like you did not do something people wanted in your past.

living in the uk people do not know what is going on around them, but even though my life was ruined by the things going on today, it could have been worse, if i did not know about certain things.

even back at school, which was 14 years ago, i suspected something was happening to me, and trying to prove it cost me my education, and has followed me in my adult life ever since. so alot of the stuff people are talking about on here has been going on for some time.

its like a saying i always say to myself, "i don't know what people have done to my life since i left school".

so the thread starter is right, also another saying that he could of added that is totally wrong is "YOU MAKE YOUR OWN LIFE IN THIS WORLD". that statement is totally wrong, and i have found out that to my cost in my life.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 12:24 PM
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Alright, well, here's the next post, answering Willard856 to the best of my abilities...



Originally posted by Willard856
Ok, this is going to get me flamed, but here goes:


Not at all. I encourage all views to be expressed (I am a Libra, after all). Add to that your argument is well thought out and the fact you're from Oz makes it a bit of a bonus to the thread, actually. And if someone does flame you, I'll kick 'em in the nitz.



Originally posted by Willard856
...or having increased security and surveillance methods and living (and continue to live) in a safer, social society, then sign me up for option two.


It's a fair cop, but how much liberty are you willing to spend in the name of security? At what point do you say "Okay, thanks, but we're quite secure enough, thank you, and we'd rather not have mandatory proctoscope exams to enter the workplace."

I think one thing that most people have forgotten just how many lives were spent in order to buy us those liberties in the first place. We were never just handed the right to Free Speech, we were never simply allowed to bear arms, or any of the other millions of freedoms great and small that we take for granted every single day. People had to kill, people had to die, entire cities had to be reduced to rubble, countries had to repeatedly go to war... millions of lives have, over the course of our history, been either lost or ruined to ensure that we could have those freedoms available for the next generation.

And yet, amidst the rampant complacency, too many people have forgotten that the price of liberty is sometimes death.

The reason they have forgotten it is because they've never had to work for it. Most people in the U.S. were born into those liberties, or obtained them as a result of naturalization. In either event, it was freely given, and something freely given has no value. This is why people do not vote, and it is why people are so ready to give up their liberties.

Liberty is like any other commodity, it can be bought or sold. Currently people are dumping stock in liberty because they feel the cost is too great. Like you yourself have said, you'd rather sacrifice your liberty than even face the risk of your or your family being killed, if I am reading you correctly. And that's understandable. Most people don't want to die, nor do they want their loved ones to die. The instinct to survive is so overwhelmingly powerful, I have little doubt that most people, even on ATS, would serve whatever master they had to, under whatever conditions they had to, just to buy themselves one more day of life.

However, in that case, you are still buying and selling, only this time, it is your life you are trading in. Whereas before, one sells liberty for security, once security has a monopoly on the market, and there is no more liberty left to sell, the only asset you will have left to bargain with is your life.




Originally posted by Willard856
Given the content of this website over the years, you'd think multiple members would be carted off to Guantanamo Bay sharpish. Doesn't happen though, does it?


Actually... we wouldn't know if it did, remember? Gitmo detainees have been held for years, incommunicado, without trial. And those are just the ones we know about. I myself personally felt the wrong end of the stick when I got just a little too curious about a particular organization. I had to make the choice about whether or not continuing to post on it was worth the consequences. I decided it wasn't, and I was very blatantly forced to make that choice.



Originally posted by Willard856
The current situation is vastly different to the thought crimes that Orwell described. If Big Brother were that good, religious extremism wouldn't be the problem it is today.


Then you most certainly did not read 1984 in its entirety, or have forgotten much. Ingsoc kept its people in a constant state of terror, citing "the unseen enemy" constantly as a reason to increase security measures and reduce liberties. No matter that no one ran across the unseen enemy, it was stated often enough and thusly believed.

And we need not even rely on fiction for our source of historical application. Remember this quote?

“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Göring during the Nuremberg Trials.

Now, granted, as far as I know, the U.S. and U.K. governments are incapable of reading our thoughts on any sort of grand scale just yet, but who needs to, when good old fashioned psychology works just as well, and proactively prevents the very thoughts they would be trying to detect in the first place.



Originally posted by Willard856
And the only way to prevent such things happening is good intel, and increased security procedures. So the biggest risk to Government is actually not increasing security and intel monitoring. Because people will remove the Government from office one way or another if they don't think the Government is doing enough to protect their personal safety.


Ah, but m8, I don't think people are denouncing security itself. No one is saying "We need to leave everything wide open to terrorist attacks." However, I think plenty of people are beginning to take issue with the fact that liberties are being taken away by the executive branch, without the approval of congress.

And that is at the heart of the matter. You say you can just elect a new party, or run for office yourself, and that's great. I'm glad Oz has that luxury. In America, however, our Executive Branch suddenly decided it did not have to answer to either the Judicial or Legislative branches anymore. Meaning all checks and balances had been temporarily removed...meaning that the people did not, in fact, have any say over these changes.

Now, thank god a federal judge had enough balls (a woman, at that) to stand up to the executive branch and say "No, in point of fact, your job is not to make policy, it is to act on policy that has been hammered through congress." That really really ticked off the administration, but thankfully our system of checks and balances prevails.

However, in order for people to remember that we even HAD a system of checks and balances, the fact that we were detaining people indefinitely, without trial, without charges, without representation, without communication, in secret prisons, where they were being tortured, all had to be uncovered before anyone was willing to do anything about it.

THAT is the danger of selling your liberty for security. At some point, the government stops asking if you're willing to make the trade, and getting back to a good balance between liberty and security often requires tragedy on a horrific scale. I realize that few people will ever recognize it, but had it not been for that judge, America was absolutely headed towards becoming the next Nazi regime. I don't think people realized just how scary it was getting. American citizens were, with zero warning, zero notification to family or work, zero charges brought against them, being picked up and detained for weeks, months, even years on end...all because one might accidentally have chosen the wrong charity to donate money to, or had the misfortune of knowing someone who knew the wrong person.



Originally posted by Willard856
I know most people on here don't agree with what I am saying.


Oh, I wouldn't go so far as to say "most". And even if they do, it's not like one cannot have intelligent discourse on such a topic, as we are having now.

(cont next post)



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by Willard856
Having been involved in responses to terrorist acts, and seen mangled bodies, and devastated parents, wives, husbands and children, I couldn't care less if a small minority of people are upset by these supposed infractions on their civil liberties.


Ah, this puts me very much in mind of a rather nasty argument a few days ago. My parents' close friend and neighbor of almost 20 years was having his 60th birthday party and while over there, the topic turned to politics. I mentioned that it would appear that we are, in exchange for security, creating a caste of second-class citizens out of Muslims and anyone who was Middle-Eastern looking. They looked at me and nodded, shrugging "...and?" I thought perhaps they didn't understand, and further explained that, no, see, people who are natural born or naturalized citizens of the United States are being turned into second-class citizens by the policies of the current administration. They nodded again and said "that's fine with me."

It blew my mind. These had, to my knowledge, always been very good and right-thinking people. They have never, to my knowledge, been overtly bigoted about anything... but now, having been told for the last five years that "we are under attack, and that anyone who disagrees with the methods used to repel the aggressors is unpatriotic," they have bought into the same damned web of deception that Göring spoke of over 50 years ago! Without realizing it, they had become tacit members of a rather bigoted set of policies that only currently did not affect them personally. By the time it does affect them personally, it will be far too late to do anything about it.



Originally posted by Willard856
My right, and other peoples right, to be alive, and live in peaceful society, far outweigh any concerns I have with these new security measures.


I both agree and disagree. The right for someone to remain alive is one thing, but when do you begin to ask yourself just how much you will sacrifice to maintain the illusion of security.

Let's face it. Even without ANY safeguards against terrorism in place, what are your odds of getting killed by a terrorist in comparison to, say, getting killed by a drunk driver? Or any one of Australia's lethal lifeforms and weather for that matter?

You use the prevention of your demise as justification for incurring any number of rather stretching security policies. Okay, fine that, but what about the other 99% of deaths per year that aren't caused by terrorism?

Heart disease! It kills over 1/4 (28.5%) of all Americans. That's an incredible number. As far as threat to life goes, the only other thing that comes close is cancer (at 22.8%) and the next most common thing is stroke (6.7%). Heart disease is largely preventable if one eats healthy, and excercises. Why then, is McDonald's allowed to exist? Why are fat people allowed to remain obese? Why hasn't nationwide excercise times been implemented?

Perhaps because the consequences for living unhealthy lifestyle rests solely on the person who will die? Not really. If you're the parent or guardian of a child, you've pretty much set that child at a rather terrible financial, emotional, and even physical disadvantage by your actions. If you stroke out in the middle of operating a vehicle or heavy machinery, you are liable to cause deaths in an accident...

...now let's consider automobiles... a HUGE cause of death in America. Your odds of dying in a car accident are 81 to 1. Over 40,000 people a year die in auto accidents, despite safety measures taken, over 3/4 of which are due to distractions (such as cell phone usage while driving) or drunk driving. Deaths that would have otherwise been prevented.

How many Americans have died from terrorism...ever...in the history of our nation? Does it even remotely approach 30,000? Wouldn't you think that if the decision to implement policy were even remotely based upon the likelihood of death, rather than politics, that someone would have not only invented an idiot-proof car, but enacted legislation outlawing dumb-cars that allow their owners to drive drunk or distractedly?

I'm sorry to say that your fear of a rather obscure way to die does not justify the costs neccessary to prevent it, when there are so many more MUCH more likely ways of untimely demise that are going completely unattended to.



Originally posted by Willard856
Also, I would like to point out that no revolution happened in Australia. We are still part of the Commonwealth, we still have the Queen of England as our Head of State.


Shush! You did too. Remember all the prisoners rising up when Snake Pliskan killed the sadistic warden, and set the prisoner's free?



Originally posted by Willard856
We evolved from "a god-forsaken prison colony" to what we are today because the people peacefully shaped the political landscape of today.


What is this "peaceful shaping" thing you speak of? Does it involve guns?



Originally posted by Willard856
Maybe some people on ATS would like to try that first, before starting an armed revolution. There are enough people on here that agree with what the OP has said. So start a political party where ever you are. Speak out publicly. Do something positive and pro-active, rather than stew in your own indignation. We can go around this buoy as many times as you want, but it won't change anything unless you do something (and I don't mean shoot people, just to be clear).


I actually intend to run for president once I hit the ripe old age of 35. I'd rather that than an armed revolution, to be honest. I'm not real big on killing people that didn't do anything to me or my family personally.



Originally posted by Willard856
I know, before you post, what the responses will be. I'm an idiot, I'm a sheep, I'm a Government disinfo agent. In fact, I'm not even sure why I took the time to write this because I know how I'll be viewed. But I did. It is how I feel.


I don't think you're any of the above, actually. I disagree with some of the things you say, but that doesn't make you a bad or a stupid person...it just makes you wrong
Just kidding. It just means we have differing viewpoints. As long as we can discuss them rationally, I'm all for disagreement. Disagreement is what keeps people from getting too powerful.


(more responses to come, sorry they're taking so long to write)



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 01:00 PM
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"If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear..."

...Is a platitude which could only be realized in a cashless society totally free from personal material want, in which personal Status, as a measure of social value, was non-existent.

In other words, as long as there exists in our society a reason or motive for person(s) to abuse the information gleened from from these methods and excercises of surveillence, we allow these intrusions into our personal affairs at extreme risk to our personal sovereignty and well-being.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 01:30 PM
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I voted you way above,thelibra

In America you are lucky to have the ability to challenge oppresive governments written into your constitution.Try living here mate(uk),where no such ability exists for anyone.
You guys have GOT TO protect that right.It could be the most important part of your constitution.
If people tried to suggest a similar law in the uk,they would swiftly be harrased/arrested,and painted as a terrorist by our state worshiping media...
As for the surveillance thing-wait till you get the cameras which shout at you for droping litter,or whatever the crime may be.

news.bbc.co.uk...

The problem is,with the advent of nano technology and the like,this sort of spying,recording and monitoring society we are living in can only get more and more intrusive while at the same time becoming harder for us to avoid-or know what to expect.
I always think that the technology we are made aware of by the media is only what they want us to know about-literally the tip of the iceberg.
I`ve got to reccomend you to read Soficrow`s excellent research projsct on "the new military",which contains alot of info relavent to this excellent thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This world is approaching...be afraid,or fight it.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 01:41 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
I'll get a kick out of this so here it go's



I will too. Now, I'm pretty sure you're playing along with the initial list. The tone is rather difficult to discern, I'm afraid.



Originally posted by pepsi78
all it takes is for you to be at the wrong time in the wrong place, and tag you're it, you get busted for nothing, nothing is perfect, there is extortion, corruption, interest, and greed , all running at high levels in high places.


Exactly. See the 2nd half of my post in Williard Part 2. Auto accidents account for over 40,000 deaths per year in the U.S. alone... every year! If the threat to human life were any measure of excuse about exchanging liberty for security, then where the hell are the Smart Cars that don't let people drive drunk, that disable cell phone use while driving, that prevent epileptics from deciding to go for a drive (yeah, I know, epilepsy is not a choice, like the other two, but I'm just making a point about the causes of auto accidents)



Originally posted by pepsi78
I know, smoking a joint makes you a terrorist, because of the homeland security act.
Such acts are included under domestic terrorism.


That really sucks. Especially since, if some of those terrorists had turned on to phatties in the first place instead of extremism and caffeine, they might never have gotten around to blowing stuff up. Even if they had intended to, they probably would have forgotten to blow up once they were there and would have decided to buy a falafel instead.


Originally posted by pepsi78
Remember, people got in trouble for filming a damn trash can?


No, but I do remember several cases of kids pulling pranks at school (like pot-brownies, acid cake, pulling the fire alarm, or calling in a bomb threat to get out of a test) and suddenly, instead of detention, or juvie, they are tried and convicted as terrorists. Kids. Doing crap that our own parents were pulling back in their day, because kids are stupid and do that sort of thing, and now they're being tried as terrorists.



Originally posted by pepsi78
This can create trouble, because the officers that come and search your home , since they are doing it with out warrants and they can retain anything, they may feel free to do what they want.


Nice i-Pod. This obviously needs to be confiscated as evidence.
What's this green papery stuff in your wallet? Evidence.
Did you just resist arrest? You know I can use lethal force if you resist arrest.
Good. I thought not. Now, we're going to have to strip search your wife. Wait here.

Now, someone might be inclined to scoff and say that'd never happen. I would remind them that in point of fact, there's a very public case about this very thing going on right now, and several like it that have come and gone with narry a thing done about it.

I actually sat and listened to a radio talkshow as they played a tape of several police officers busting a drug dealer. Only, there wasn't a warrant, and their tactics were very highly illegal. The dealer's wife had recorded the entire thing by slipping a new tape in and pressing the record button as the police busted down the door. At first the officers are rather jovial about the whole thing until the man demands a warrant. Suddenly there's a crash and the man begins moaning in pain. The police again request a written confession and the man begins offering all sorts of information. But they don't want information. They explain to him, via punching and beating, that they want a written confession. What follows is forty five minutes of them alternating between brutally beating the man, breaking his stuff, demanding a confession, and at one point they even fetch the car-battery charger pack and jumper cables and attach it to his testicles. And by the time the tape clicked to a halt, the man still had not signed the confession, but had ratted out every single person he knew on every possible thing imaginable. Even his own wife.

Now... one would think this would elicit horror from the host, or at least the listeners.

Nope. Instead the attitude was that the cops hadn't enough power, and this was fair play, that sometimes the cops gotta be dirty to bust the worst crooks. The hosts were laughing, the callers were laughing, everyone thought it was just hilarious to listen to this guy being brutally beaten and tortured, and called him a dumbass for not just signing the confession.

This guy wasn't a rapist, he wasn't a murderer, he wasn't a child molester. He was some old black man (assumed from his voice, I apologize if that is wrong) who was making some money on the side selling weed. Is selling weed illegal? Yeah. Should he have been busted for it? Sure. Thats the law. Does it give the government a right to break the law in order to do so? No. Does the need for a confession give them the right to torture him? Hell no!

A police state breaks down true law and order just as quickly as the absence of police will.


Originally posted by pepsi78
Mistakes can be made, in fact mistakes were made, you could be one, you never know


Like the two guys busted for an alleged plot to...sell used cell phones. Two middle-eastern looking men, in a van, with a bunch of cell phones, who made the mistake of stopping near the Brooklyn Bridge. They spent a good while in the puzzle box for that mistake. Of course, they really were just planning on selling used cell phones. Anyone know how long they spent in custody?


Originally posted by pepsi78
Wrongly accused with out being able to stand trial, and than being tortured and knowing your innocent.


Who wants to go waterboarding? It's fun! Yay!



Originally posted by pepsi78
.......and finally, being deported for using your constitutional rights.


I wonder how that one ever made it through... Seriously.
I know we have some Brits here, somewhere. What the hell?
How can you justify allowing your government to deport critics?
Isn't there anything you can do about it?


Originally posted by pepsi78
All mentioned by you leads to a perfect police state, if you would like to live in such a sistem please sign up for an emigrant aplication to north corea.



Of course I don't want to live in that kind of a system. That's kind of the whole point for the post. I want Liberty! I'm not sure if you were speaking to me, or to the nameless people who are saying "If you're not doing anything wrong, then there's nothing to fear".



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 01:48 PM
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I will admit to skimming some of this thread, but I did read a lot of it and it reminds me of a very famous quote that I am sure many of you are familiar with.

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Ben Franklin

I might get bashed for quoting some (freemason/devil worshipper/who knows what you people think its hard to keep track) but his message is very profound, moreso because he isn't a superhero from a work of fiction like V.

It is a lot of the works of those on the fringe of Early American Govt that had a lot of the right ideas, even some of those that had bigger parts knew what they were doing, and its not hard to see that as a lot more of the constitution and the early practices are changed/removed, that our populous becomes more disenfranchised with the way things work.

How can a citizen grow up in the United States caring about his country when CIVICS isnt even a required course in a majority of high schools anymore?

[edit on 20-9-2006 by HankMcCoy]



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by HankMcCoy
who knows what you people think its hard to keep track


"you people"??!?! Sorry, bud. There's no turning back. You're one of us now.



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