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Anti-radiation Air-to-Air Missile

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posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 01:42 PM
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The Russian R-27P(AA-10) is the medium range air-to-air missile varient fitted with the 9B-1032 anti-radiation seeker. Due to its ability to sneak upon its target undetected by radar warning reciever and longer effective range, it poses a serious threat to most platforms, even those with the latest AESA radar, so claimed by its designers.

R-27P Levels Playing Field


One(advantage) is that, unlike a radar homing missile that emits a signal that alerts an enemy to one’s presence, an antiradiation missile is a silent killer. Homing in on the radar emissions of an enemy aircraft, it gives almost no warning of its approach.


Most radar homing missiles' effective range are limited by the amount of battery power available. The 9B-1032 seeker is able to overcome this.


"Its battery power requirements are much lower and it will keep working long after the rocket motor has run out of fuel or the missile begins to loose speed and altitude."


The missile, even after expending its fuel, will guide itself towards the target with its remaining energy after following a ballistic path.

As for their effectiveness against US aircrafts(not only AWACS platforms),


U.S. radar designers insist that the latest AESA radar models are all frequency-hopping and therefore they do not emit a signal long enough at a specific point on the bandwidth for such a seeker to lock on to them. But Russian specialists reply that the threat model used by the U.S. to develop these radars relies on older versions of the 9B-1032 seeker. The new version for export, they claim, employs a number of new-generation components that are more sensitive and process signals faster.


Even the long range AA-12 can be fitted with such an anti-radiation warhead. If these missiles are really as invincible as they claimed, it will be a very worrying issue for US and her allies. The Russians are always very eager to sell their product, regardless of the nature of their always very eager customers...such as Iran.

How will US reacts to such kind of weapon? What kind of defence will be used against these "stealth" missiles?

[edit on 18-9-2006 by NotheRaGe]




posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 01:46 PM
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I sincerely hope it can shoot F22 down!!!!!!!



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 11:05 PM
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It won't even SEE the F-22. The Raptor uses an Low Probability of Intercept radar, that is EXTREMELY hard to detect by ANYTHING.



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 11:44 PM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58
It won't even SEE the F-22. The Raptor uses an Low Probability of Intercept radar, that is EXTREMELY hard to detect by ANYTHING.


I know that!!!! XD
that's why im saying it....



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 11:50 PM
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Then if you know about LPI, you should know that the chances of this working on it are slim, and none, and slim just left town.



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 11:51 PM
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Lets not involve the F-22..
Seems to be a very sensitive topic..


Anyways Iran does not have any BVR capable radars on any of their a/c as far as I know(Still waiting for specs on that Sageheh), and this missile has ranges between 70-130km.

The article seems to be taking potshots at the Malay AF which is actually quite comparable to the RSAF with its MKMs.

The R-27 is a formidable missile of course (some training round pics on the Su30 MKI walkaround in the Air superiority thread), but one needs to seriously look at the platforms carrying them. Infact a overwiew of the whole Su30 MKM deal will be a good thing to do.
It is likely that the Malay AF will buy 30-50 missiles but I doubt this new seeker will be on them. Mating the seeker at a later stage is also a possibility, but then again a renegade Malay government is a near impossibility.


The R-27P version has just been cleared for export and the new seeker will have good prospects of a sale in AFs with inventories where the R-27 is stocked up real good...cough..India..China..

Good Read on the R-27 developments



[edit on 19-9-2006 by Daedalus3]



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 12:24 AM
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The R-27P has been marketed for quite a while

The new missile they are developing is the ramjet version of the R-77 dubbed the R-77M, which is basically the R-27P seeker fitted to the longer ranged R-77M. The seeker on the R-27 actually has a longer range than the missile and the only way to utlize this range is to fit it on a Ramjet missile.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 04:09 AM
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If the USAF has such a seeker on the AIM-120, and fit it into F-22, it will not only have extended range but also able to kill every unsuspecting enemy aircraft with the pilot not even knowing what's coming and try to dodge or eject.

And when the PAK-FA comes out, the Russians and their customers will have such a capability and threatening a majority of fighters in US and allies' inventories.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 04:12 AM
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Pretty interesting missile development.

And yes, let us not invlove the Raptor



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 06:44 AM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58
It won't even SEE the F-22. The Raptor uses an Low Probability of Intercept radar, that is EXTREMELY hard to detect by ANYTHING.



Originally posted by Zaphod58
Then if you know about LPI, you should know that the chances of this working on it are slim, and none, and slim just left town.


I have to disagree with this.

LPI doesn't mean invisible other wise it would be know as NPI( No probability of interception).

LPI can be detected just like "Stealth" aircraft the closer you get the easier it is to lock on. But it is even easier with LPI to lock on with anti-radiation missiles because of the way radio frequencies work.

The LPI concept is based on using longer pulses at lower amplitudes rather then the current short pulse high amplitude systems. The LPI beam shape is narrower lobe's which ensure there are smaller side lobes.

Obviously it can be detected otherwise the F-22 wouldn't be able to detect it itself.

If the F-22 can detect it's own LPI signals that it sent over long distances and received then so can any body else.

To detect these signals what you need to do is make a new seeker with algorithms that are designed to pick up cycling of frequencies and longer pulses of smaller amplitudes.

LPI radar's main advantage is smaller side lobes. Eve if the radar tries to hide it's signals in background noise there is only so much that can be done.

The best thing to do would be to make a very long range ram-jet powered missile possibly 400km-500km range and take out the early warning systems like AWACS. This forces aircraft to use there own radars. The best stealth for aircraft currently is to not use there own radars.

LPI's true strength is in communications. Comm's only requires small amounts of data to be transferred and in this you can hide from other aircraft but for search and detect of other aircraft you are not as invisible as you seem to think.

The closer the anti-radiation missile gets to the target the better it will lock on to the aircraft's signals. Also depending on the overall range of the enemy radar will be a deciding factor to how far the missile needs to be to get a lockon on the enemy aircrafts radar signals.

The seeker needs to match the frequency bands that the radar works in. Obviously there will be a minimum-maximum limit to with the attena can work in so if you base the anti-radiation seeker within those bands and then create algorithms to work out the background noise from the signals that are trying to hide inbetween them then you have a good chance of lockon.

[edit on 19-9-2006 by iqonx]



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 07:00 AM
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Ooops. Sorry, I'm completely wrong on that. Our weapons expert has spoken.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 09:02 AM
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I think that one thing that most folks here are missing is that using an ARH missile in an AAW engagement is a very, very hard thing to try to do. Much depends on the emitter being targeted, and the platform carrying the emitter.

ARH weapons are very hard to aim. They are good against ground emitters (SAMs, AAW defense, EW, etc.) because these systems do not or rarely maneuver when emitting. And assuming we are talking about a mobile platform like a SAM launcher or AAA gun vehicle, the rate of movement is still pretty slow - slow enough for a ARH weapon to deal with.

ARH weapons are fairly effective against naval targets as well. Again, slow maneuvering target presenting a large signature and/or source of emitters.

AAW ARH weapons would only be effective with today's technology against a slow-moving target that cannot maneuver well, presenting a large RF source. AWACS and E-8 aircraft fall into this category, and their values are such that investment in ARH AAW missiles might seem like a chance worth taking. The Russians have been working on this for many years.

However, using ARH weapons against a high-speed, maneuvering target is simply too much for today's technology. Throw LPI radars into the mix and it becomes fairly impossible. LPI means you have to creep in close to even get a shot off, and by then you are already detected and engaged. One must also assume that in order to get a long range ARH shot off in the first place, you must have accurate targeting info. Passive technology does not permit this against most tactical aircraft, so you must expose your hand by radiating to get a target fix first, which means you have already lost your element of surprise. Throw in modern electronic warfare systems, self-screening jammers, expendeble RF decoys, and an environment that will be rich in other emitters, EMI, and other various signals and your chances of accurate targeting is zilch. While its true that ARH weapons may be "sneaky", the fact remains that when you open your passive receiver to whatever is floating around in free space, you are inviting the enemy to come inside your signal processor and set up shop.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 09:47 AM
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OMG...sorry, I conpletely misread this thread.... I thought it was about anti air missiles.... but turns out to be air to air missiles....



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by Pyros

However, using ARH weapons against a high-speed, maneuvering target is simply too much for today's technology.


Yes thats true.

I personally wouldn't have done it like the Russian's did for that exact same reason. You can lock onto a signal but hitting the target using AR seeking is very difficult against fast targets with low signals.

Personally i would have made or used a pre-existing ram-jet engine and then mated a duel seeker on top comprised of the anti-radiation detection system combined with the InfraRed seeker from the Russian R-73M2 missile seeker. Or possibly R-77( AA-12 ADDER) active seeker and passive Anti-radiation seeker together somehow but the active seeker kicks in later during the flight or when asked to by the A-R seeker.

The Russians should seriously think about mating this anti-radiation seeker with either electro-optic, InfraRed or active radar systems for best results especially against "stealth" aircraft or other fast moving targets.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 11:45 AM
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How is this(Vympel R-27P) ARH?
It isn't even SARH(R-27E/T) if I'm not mistaken!
The ARH R-27 is The R-27AE.
totally passive and probably real good for non-LPI radars wih inferior tracking/searching ranges as compared to the radar on the R-27P carrying platform..
Voila! Stealth w/o stealth



EDIT: Is there any confusion between ARH, SARH and ARM?
Or did you mean ARH as anti-radiation homing?

[edit on 19-9-2006 by Daedalus3]



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 03:25 PM
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The seeker is passive and works by locating the radar signals, but im not sure if it would be termed ARH



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 04:31 PM
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The problem with these missiles is that even if they worked against most modern radars the targeted aircraft could simply shot down it's radar for a time in case of need and the missile is pwned. Definitely not very reliable weapon.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 05:38 PM
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Imagine this

First phase - Passive seeker
Second phase - Active seeker
Third phase - Heat seeking



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 05:47 PM
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Imagine this

First phase - Passive seeker
Second phase - Active seeker
Third phase - Heat seeking


Such solution significantly negates the advantages of passive design - that means low weight and unability to detect it. Once you engages the active seeker there is little need for IR passive one - enemy already knows there is a threat.

nd BTW in fact (save the IR seeker) the missile described by you is regular BVR missile like AMRAAM (it can fly long time without active radar on too).



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 06:09 PM
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Passive as in ARH not heat seeking.


is regular BVR missile like AMRAAM


The AMRAAM gets updates from the lanuching aircraft until its active seeker is activated at about 20-30km(?). What i am suggesting is a Super long range missile which first seeks out the target with its passive seeker and when/if the radar of the enemy fighters gets turned off the active seeker is activated.

And the heat seeking missile i presume would be more effective at short ranges since all short range missiles feature heat seekers instead of a active radar



negates the advantages of passive design


I dont see how the R-27P has that much of an advatage over the R-27R or R-27T



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