Saddam makes a good point.

I was reading one of Saddam Hussein's written speeches to the UN and he actually made a Good point.

he said something along the lines of, "America wants to impose democracy on Iraq...is that the democracy before 9/11??? Or after 9/11???"

We should monitor our freedom closely, and more now then ever before, especially since for the first time America is about to set a precedence of Agression without ANY CAUSE. Saddam may be getting nuclear weapons but what Bush is trying to do is have us Execute someone under the pretence of committing murder, when all he's done is throw stones at birds.

I still think we need to solve the problem with Iraq, but I think there are better ways then invasion...any ideas?

Sincerely,
no signature

Sure, I got ideas. I also have an understanding that what he's done equates to a little more than throwing rcocks at birds. There are ten's of thousands of dead people in his own country, killed by his chemical agents, that amount to more than birds.

He both sponsors terrorists financially and with thraining, and these terrorists then go and kill other human beings that have nothing to do with any sense of warfare.
Hussein lost a war a little over a decade ago and has not lived up to the obligations that bought peace for him and has allowed his people to suffer for this, and now tries to make us look like the cause of their suffering, while he ensures that his military is maintained and fed. Those suffering citizens amount to more than birds. No, there are more than birds that are being aimed for by Hussein.

As far as our "democracy" (I'm no fan of this democracy notion but prefer that we go back to the republican form the founding fathers had in mind but was destroyed by the Civil War) now, prior to 9-11 as opposed to pre-9-11, that is not really a point at all; just senseless rhetoric aimed at knee-jerks who don't look to far past the words.
The nation always changes a bit when it goes into a wartime footing; nothing new here.The only thing that makes this time a little different is that the length of the war can't easily be determined as the battlelines aren't even easily recognized, and that the American people are more ignorant of their rights as well as obligations than they ever have been in the history of this nation. This ignorance makes it easier for a government to take away what was Divinely given. That, however, is the citizens' fault and nobody else's.

I think we're running out of other ideas besides invasion. Tell me again how well diplomacy has worked with Iraq the past several years? They can't even refrain from trying to shoot down US and UK planes patrolling no fly zones.

didnt the saudis just give a blanket 'no' to supporting an invasion though?

Wow Thomas Crowe, those are big words for someone who did not read what I was talking about....You forget we have command of his skies and at will destroy anything that can be used as anti-air, which includes anything near it...
...now I'm not defending what saddam does in his own nation, but the fact is he has done nothing to OTHER nations....which is of course what we are trying to attack him for.

He has done nothing really, except for invade Kuait, and we don't know the whole story behind everything that happend there, none of us have researched it out.

What we are about to do is no different then if the US were to have (after a little bit of warning) attacked Germany in 1936.

And I don't know about you, but I don't want to live in another Rome, that place sucked.

Sincerely,
no signature

Yes, I know what you meant, and I used a little leeway to cover the bases you just stepped in spite of it. The fact that you say all he's done is attacked Kuwait indicates it is you that skipped over my big words.

While preventing an invasion would be a great thing as it is expensive and the U.S. tax-payer is already looking at a debt from Hades as it is, Hussein has already demonstrated that he is a liar, has no intention of living up to any resolutions, is pursuing nuclear weapons and already has rather nasty C and B weapons which he has already tested on his own nation's population killing 10's of thousands, and is already supporting terrorism through financing as well as training.
We kill him now, or we bleed alot more in the future and then we kill him. It's not worth it to me that my son die from smallpox or my wife is incinerated by a hand-carriable just to give a suck-egg dog one last romp through the chicken house.

By the way, I've forgotten most words to college-level, so it doesn't reflect very well on you to say I use big words. Thanks for the compliment but I am far from worthy.

"Germany in 1936??/" cycling into the Rhineland is analogous to SH?
Enlighten us, O wise one.

restrained and sane, as ever TC (but when, O when, are you going to post a glossary so that thiose of us not below below the Mason-Dixon line can understand the food allusions, elsewhere?"
As ever, Estragon points attention to the long-term obvious. What matters here is that the three greatest powers of the time: USA, Russia and China all share a commmon target -militant Islam. This is unparalleled.
Zap my Chechens, zap your Iraqis, zap his Uighurs.
Add to that the support from Britain - arguably the 2nd most effective military power, and India v Pakistan (and India is a giant about to wake): and you have a heady brew.
These are big times in the history of the future.

while I suspect you are an agent provocateur and a force of the light-dark duality, I would like to see how you got Hiitler+1936 into your comparison.

"This ignorance makes it easier for a government to take away what was Divinely given."

really, i thought it was a f*ck off war of independance, not god ....

anyway, to get back to saddam's point. i think its an interesting point to consider.

america is becoming more and more oppressive to her own citizens post 11/9. should saddam follow suit?

bush is almost guaranteed to win the next election, purely on the grounds of the bandwagon-patriotism that's been spewing from the media since 11/9. are we happy that saddam has the same loyalty from the majority of his populace, off the back of anti-US propaganda?

bush also got elected pre-11/9 on exceptionally dodgey grounds. had it been zimbabwe deciding their leader with half a dozen court judges, we'd having been screaming that democracy wasn't being done. how about it, should saddam use the same electrion system?

the american form of democracy has taken a massive hit since 11/9. i think saddam makes a very interesting reference to this.

- qo.

Originally posted by Estragon:

"while I suspect you are an agent provocateur and a force of the light-dark duality, I would like to see how you got Hiitler+1936 into your comparison."

what, you don't think hitler was around in 1936? he was already making moves by then. true, things didn't get really swinging until 1937, but still.

- qo.

A second US Navy air-carrier is going straight to the Persian Gulf.

A war is comming and we can't stop it.
Saddam will not resigned, and GWB will not move backward.

Saddam is a tyran, and for many reasons ( goods or bads ) GWB have to terminate Saddam.

I wonder what will happen in the next weeks.

I'm not optimist !!!



[Edited on 4-11-2002 by ultra_phoenix]

why should saddam resign?
he's the democratically elected leader of Iraq and, as far as I can tell, has broken none of his countrys laws that would call for his resignation.....
in fact it seams america is asking him to resign simply because they want him to....

in which case:

OI! BUSH! GET THE HELL OUTA THE WHITE HOUSE! ME AND MANY OF MY FELLOW BRITS THINK YOUR A MORON!

can anyone give any evidence that saddam has done anything - anything at all - since the gulf war to warrant his removal from power?

if you say: "weapons inspectors", i point you to:

"Iraq has already said it will allow UN weapons inspectors to return under the terms of existing UN resolutions."

news.bbc.co.uk...

if you say: "weapons of mass destruction", i say get the weapons inspectors in there right now, stop pussy-footing around with this new resolution.

if you say "gased the kurds", i say he did that bloody ages ago, and he's suffered sanctions ever since.

anything else?

- qo.

Originally posted by Lupe_101
why should saddam resign?
he's the democratically elected leader of Iraq and, as far as I can tell, has broken none of his countrys laws that would call for his resignation.....

Tell me, are you serious ?

For you, Hitler was democrat then ?

serious?
yes.
I'm simply attempting to view his situation in the same way as we view any world leaders so that I don't make the silly mistake of judging and condemning his country to a war for "crimes" that aren't actually crimes and acts that many other countrys including my own are also responsible for.

and BTW yes.
Hitler won a land slide democratic victory in his election. Do you wish to re write history and turn him into a tyrant who pressured the people into voteing for him and rigged the election because you are unable to consider the possibility that very bad people can become the legitimate governers of countries?

Q-O, I can't help your not understanding the history of this nation or not having researched beyond the cursory and revised history classes. What a shame you can't even respond without using profanity as a crutch to look, well, I'm not sure what look it is you're going for.

If you've not seen fit to keep up with what has been going on with Hussein the last decade (which is evident from the ignorance of your postings) I do not feel inclined to spend the next few days catching you up to speed.

Lupe, he is a democratically elected leader, huh? Yeah buddy, I saw alot of people challenge him, didn't you? One of the most paranoid leaders ever, if he even thinks there's a reason to believe you aren't loyal to him you are killed. No, I can't imagine anyone running against him.
I'm sure you are being sarcastic in saying he is a democratically elected leader.

BTW, Quiet One, you may want inspectors to just go and look in the areas that Hussein says are ok to look at, but that farce isn't worth the time or money and won't stop any aggression from the madman. You certainly understand this, so why are you interested in seeing him have capabilities to not only kill his own, and kill his neighbors, but also supply terrorists with weapons that will kill innocent people abroad? Do you feel you are in a seafe location and have nothing to lose if my family is killed?

Also, where is all the degradation of my freedoms? Is it because some knee-jerk idiots no longer allow me to carry my pocket knife or nail clipper onboard a plane? I hardly think ol' Ben and Tom are turning in their graves over that.

Originally posted by Lupe_101
serious?
yes.
I'm simply attempting to view his situation in the same way as we view any world leaders so that I don't make the silly mistake of judging and condemning his country to a war for "crimes" that aren't actually crimes and acts that many other countrys including my own are also responsible for.

I do NOT condemn Irak. But I know that Saddam is a tyran. And when GWB won the elections, he didn't have 100% like Saddam. Do you see what I mean ? That's the difference between a democracy and a dictatorship.

Originally posted by Lupe_101

and BTW yes.
Hitler won a land slide democratic victory in his election. Do you wish to re write history and turn him into a tyrant who pressured the people into voteing for him and rigged the election because you are unable to consider the possibility that very bad people can become the legitimate governers of countries?

Not at all. You wrong, Hitler didn't win any elections.It's the former german chancellor who asked Hitler to take the power in Germany.

Don't do a mistake LP101, Hitler was a tyran, and Saddam is a tyran. Tyrans have to be removed from power. Democratia must win !

Stuff your democracy, US is no longer considered a democracy and I have the facts to prove this, denying these claims is admitting you are narrowminded and unwilling to accept the facts, rather willing to live on in that glass prison you call a democracy.

Its been long due to post some current myths that are playing in most people's mindsets.

palestinechronicle.com...

www.voanews.com...

Top 10
1 - Finland, Iceland, Norway, Netherlands
5 - Canada
6 - Ireland
7 - Germany, Portugal, Sweden
10 - Denmark

Whats that I hear you say, all European countries in the top ten? What place did the land of the free achieve? A measly 17th place. Wanna know why it only got the 17th place? Apparently the US likes to stick its journalists in jail when they don't want to release their sources of information hence the lower placement on the list.

How's that for 'freedom' of press?

Quote:

The US' 17th place was lowered because of the number of journalists arrested for refusing to reveal their sources, the report says.
EU member countries score well in the list - except for Italy, ranked 40th.


Needless to explain why Italy scores so low on the list!

Some more links on this particular subject :

www.ifj.org...

www.indexonline.org...

www.usatoday.com...

civilliberty.about.com...


Next example is the Patriot Act, you can all read up on it by downloading this pdf file. www.alta.org...

Here are only a few of the paragraphs but this document holds so much more of all these wonderfull rights and duties ya'll seem to love so much.


Quote:

SEC. 1008. FEASIBILITY STUDY ON USE OF BIOMETRIC IDENTIFIER
SCANNING SYSTEM WITH ACCESS TO THE FBI
INTEGRATED AUTOMATED FINGERPRINT IDENTIFICATION
SYSTEM AT OVERSEAS CONSULAR POSTS AND
POINTS OF ENTRY TO THE UNITED STATES.



Quote:

SEC. 355. AUTHORIZATION TO INCLUDE SUSPICIONS OF ILLEGAL
ACTIVITY IN WRITTEN EMPLOYMENT REFERENCES.


Lets look at what amendments it is in violation of :

Violates the First Amendment freedom of speech guarantee, right to peaceably assemble provision, and petition the government for redress of grievances provision; it violates the First Amendment to the Constitution three times. More on this below.

Violates the Fourth Amendment guarantee of probable cause in astonishingly major and repeated ways. The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution reads: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons of things to be seized." The Patriot Act, now passed and the law of the land, has revoked the necessity for probable cause, and now allows the police, at any time and for any reason, to enter and search your house � and not even tell you about it.

Violates the Fifth Amendment by allowing for indefinite incarceration without trial for those deemed by the Attorney General to be threats to national security. The Fifth Amendment guarantees that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law, and the Patriot Act does away with due process. It even allows people to be kept in prison for life without even a trial.

Violates the Sixth Amendment guarantee of the right to a speedy and public trial. Now you may get no trial at all, ever.

Violates the Eighth Amendment (cruel and unusual punishment).

Violates the 13th Amendment (punishment without conviction).

It gives the government the authority to eavesdrop on conversations without a court order and can do so wether it be electronic, digital or spoken conversations through bugging, wiretapping,...
You can get arrested without any chance for a court or the right to a lawyer can be dismissed, you can be kept indefenitely until they decide it is OK to clear you.

Read through following articles,

www.eff.org...

www.commondreams.org...

truthout.com...

www.ancient-heritage-magazine.com...

www.alta.org...

Be sure to read the EFF link cause it describes pretty nicely and thorough just what this Patriot Act is about.

Seems like we have to call in someone who can definitely sort this whole mess out. How about this one for instance...?

members.shaw.ca...

What these points show is that America is slowly becoming the land of the free(dom-impaired)

More myths will be following soon and will be revealed for what they really are namely MYTHS.

So Ultra-Phoenix, you narrowminded silly excuse for a human being, keep living this lie you have been living all your life. I for one am smarter then that, if all people woke up for a change our futures would be much better.

Sincerely,

Illuminati-NWO