Some excerpts from the 'other' Good Book.

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posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 12:12 AM
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Originally posted by DJMessiah
Now compare this punishment for adultery to other religions which require that the woman to be stoned to death for her first offense.


I wonder if anyone can find a link to the last instance in which a woman was stoned to death for adultery.

Can anyone find a link to a recent incident in which a Muslim woman was murdered for marrying the wrong man or adopting Western customs?




posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 12:15 AM
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Originally posted by DJMessiah
I'm assuming you mean Surrah 4:34:


I am


Originally posted by DJMessiah
This Surrah describes wives who commit adultery on more than one occasion,


This is incorrect!!! DJ; Did you read any of my previous post with the questions that were answered by the Islamic scholar? Surrah 4-34 makes no mention of adultery as the reason for a beating from a husband. In fact, the penalty for adultery is death!! The behavior that may get the wife a [light] beating is "ill-conduct".

In any case; you believe what you want. It is schloars like this who are teaching children fundamentalist Islam and this is the "danger at the door" that we are facing today. How can you possibly defend the words of this Muslim Scholar??

Disgusted!!



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 12:18 AM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Can anyone find a link to a recent incident in which a Muslim woman was murdered for marrying the wrong man or adopting Western customs?


This took very little effort or time.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 12:46 AM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
This is incorrect!!! DJ; Did you read any of my previous post with the questions that were answered by the Islamic scholar? Surrah 4-34 makes no mention of adultery as the reason for a beating from a husband. In fact, the penalty for adultery is death!! The behavior that may get the wife a [light] beating is "ill-conduct".

In any case; you believe what you want. It is schloars like this who are teaching children fundamentalist Islam and this is the "danger at the door" that we are facing today. How can you possibly defend the words of this Muslim Scholar??

Disgusted!!


I did read what your wrote: did you read my reply? Are you sure it doesn't mention adultery? The part in Surah 4:34 about adultery:

"As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds..."

In Arabic:

"waallatee takhafoonanushoozahunna faAAithoohunna waohjuroohunnafee"

Nushooz in Arabic means "adultery," "disloyal" or "unfaithful."



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 12:51 AM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I wonder if anyone can find a link to the last instance in which a woman was stoned to death for adultery.

Can anyone find a link to a recent incident in which a Muslim woman was murdered for marrying the wrong man or adopting Western customs?


Would you like to show me where in the Quran it says that a woman must be stoned for adultery? If it's occured, it's not because of the Quran, but the culture.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 01:04 AM
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Originally posted by DJMessiah
Now compare this punishment for adultery to other religions which require that the woman to be stoned to death for her first offense.

[edit on 19-9-2006 by DJMessiah]


Not in christianit which tells us "men should love their wives as Christ loves the church" ....

so you must be refering to Judaism....

I anycase, are you aware that there some who believe Satan "sneaked" passages into the koran? How can a divinely inspired book from God have passages written by Satan? (of course, according to the story those passages were later removed and the integrity of the koran was kept intact)

I personally do not know what muhammed saw in those caves but whatever it was, I doubt highly it was inspired by God.

of course there is the story taught in christian schools which make a WHOLE lot more sense to me.

According to their version of the story.... muhammed became upset at the paganists beliefs of the Arab tribes and sought out jews and christians and asked them about their faiths. According to the story, mohammed combined the pagan beliefs of of the Arab tribes with parts of the jewish faith (dietary restrictions) and parts of the christian faith.

Thus islam was born....and I know someone will post a reply to this stating that christian holidays were placed around the calender in correlation to former pagan ones under the Roman empire. This is true, but happened centuries after the establishment of the Christian faith.

Also, as of yet, no one has shown me a passage in the NEW TESTAMENT where Jesus says "KILL all disbelievers". (its not in there).

SO I am a firm believer of the evilness of Islam and all righteous men, whether christian or not, must not allow such evil to spread.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 01:11 AM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Can anyone find a link to a recent incident in which a Muslim woman was murdered for marrying the wrong man or adopting Western customs?


This took very little effort or time.



On . . . June 29, 2006, a court in the Islamic Republic of Iran sentenced Malak Ghorbany, a 34-year-old mother of two, to a brutal death by stoning after finding her guilty of adultery. . . . Two men who were found guilty of murder in the same court were only given jail sentences of six years. . . . The size of the stones used during the execution are required to be . . . not so large that they would kill a woman too quickly, nor so small that they would fail to cause serious injury or pain


June 29, 2006 - Wow thats this year... Thats just sick. We're in the 21st Century yet some nations legal systems are operating like they are in the dark ages.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 01:15 AM
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I personally do not know what muhammed saw in those caves but whatever it was, I doubt highly it was inspired by God.


To me the whole thing reeks of the Mormon guy putting his head in a hat to read the sacred tablets god gave him - except in this case the guy just stuck his head in a cave for a few years.



Also, as of yet, no one has shown me a passage in the NEW TESTAMENT where Jesus says "KILL all disbelievers". (its not in there).


You wont, because all of the violence in the bible is about people in the bible fighting each other - usually done in such a way that people reading can see what is wrong with the situation and draw a moral lesson from it.



SO I am a firm believer of the evilness of Islam and all righteous men, whether christian or not, must not allow such evil to spread.


Just have to make sure that the ordinary person doesnt get sucked into the 'feel sorry the opressed muslims' game.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 01:28 AM
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Originally posted by XphilesPhan

Not in christianit which tells us "men should love their wives as Christ loves the church" ....

so you must be refering to Judaism....


The Old Testament is part of the Bible, is it not? The Bible does say that Jesus came to confirm the teachings of the Torah (Old Testament), does it not in Matthew 23:2-3?


I anycase, are you aware that there some who believe Satan "sneaked" passages into the koran? How can a divinely inspired book from God have passages written by Satan? (of course, according to the story those passages were later removed and the integrity of the koran was kept intact)


This would be impossible, considering that every recital of each Surrah Muhammad taught was recorded by many of the Muslims the moment they heard it. The Quran written in Arabic today is the same text as it has been since the day Muhammad taught it.


I personally do not know what muhammed saw in those caves but whatever it was, I doubt highly it was inspired by God.


It was the angel Gabriel.


of course there is the story taught in christian schools which make a WHOLE lot more sense to me.


Yes, leave it to a Christian school to have an unbiased and correct teaching of another faith.


Also, as of yet, no one has shown me a passage in the NEW TESTAMENT where Jesus says "KILL all disbelievers". (its not in there).


Of course he didn't. Jesus is one of Allah's peaceful prophets who lived in a time where he didn't have to fight in any war. Other prophets of God such as Moses, Abraham, even the Angels all fought in wars because they had to. Muhammad only fought in self defence, because there were many attempts at killing him and the Muslims.


SO I am a firm believer of the evilness of Islam and all righteous men, whether christian or not, must not allow such evil to spread.


Ok, so you're saying there are 1 billion people in the world who are evil because they're Muslim. Now what will you do with us?

[edit on 19-9-2006 by DJMessiah]



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

I wonder if anyone can find a link to the last instance in which a woman was stoned to death for adultery.

Can anyone find a link to a recent incident in which a Muslim woman was murdered for marrying the wrong man or adopting Western customs?


It is not exactly the same, but it is close. This had to do with honor killings as a whole.
politics.abovetopsecret.com...'

The Muslim apologist response was... interesting, and in no way took responsibility for what was happening within the culture. Sounds familiar.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 08:19 AM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Marge

Our paths have crossed before and if I remember correctly, I left you with a question that you have yet to answer: How can you be part of an ideology that gives husbands permission to beat their wives?


Excuse me but what Ideology are you talking about, for what I have learned with Christianity it seems to be the same when it comes to fundamentalist Christians that wants to bring the ole good days of wife submission and town center stoning.

BTW what Ideology you are talking about, did I say what religion I subscribe to any where in ATS?

Actually I don't believe in Religion but I find them fascinating when it comes how people likes to interpret them to further agendas.

like wagging wars, historically the bloodiest wars in the world has been because religious ideologies.

Or you are going to denied that.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by DJMessiah
Would you like to show me where in the Quran it says that a woman must be stoned for adultery? If it's occured, it's not because of the Quran, but the culture.


Sure from the Islam Q&A Website (Bold added for emphasis):

Is it permissible to execute a married adulterer by some method other than stoning, such as killing him with a sword or by shooting him?

Answer (including reference):


It is essential to stone the married adulterer until he dies, following the Sunnah of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as it is proven that he said that, did it and enjoined it.



Al-Bukhaari and Muslim narrated in their Saheehs from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “Allaah sent Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) with the truth and revealed to him the Book, and one of the things that Allaah revealed was the verse of stoning. We have read it and understood it. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stoned (adulterers) and we stoned (them) after him, but I fear that there may come a time when some people say: ‘By Allaah, we do not find the verse of stoning in the Book of Allaah.’ So they will go astray by forsaking an obligation that Allaah has revealed. According to the Book of Allaah, stoning is deserved by the one who commits zina, if he is married, men and women alike, if proof is established or the woman becomes pregnant or they confess…”


What is the punishment for a girl found guilty of adultery if she has not even reached her puberty that is she is still a minor ?.

Answer (Including reference--the references are long):


The sin of adultery (zina: unlawful sexual relationship) is a major sin which Allaah has mentioned in conjunction with kufr, shirk and murder, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who invoke not any other ilaah (god) along with Allaah, nor kill such person as Allaah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse and whoever does this shall receive the punishment.

The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace”

[al-Furqaan 25:69]

Al-Qurtubi said:

The followers of all religions are agreed that adultery is forbidden; no religion regards it as permissible. Hence the punishment for it is one of the most severe punishments, because it is a crime against honour and lineage, which is one of the five basic principles that Islam seeks to protect, namely life, religion, lineage, reason and wealth.

Tafseer al-Qurtubi, 24/20, 21

1 – If a woman has been previously married – i.e., a legitimate marriage with her has been consummated – then her punishment is to be stoned to death.


I would like to know more about the meaning of this part of Surah al-Nisa’:

Answer:


At the beginning of Islam, the ruling concerning a woman who was proven guilty of adultery was that she was to be detained in a house and not allowed to come out until she died. So the phrase ‘If any of your women are guilty of lewdness’ refers to adultery. ‘Take the evidence of four (reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way’ - the ‘other way’ that Allah made for them was the abrogation of this.

Listen to me, Allah has made another way for them. (When) a married man (commits adultery) with a married woman, and an unmarried man with an unmarried woman, then in the case of married (persons) there is (a punishment) of one hundred lashes and then stoning (to death),..


Plenty of references for stoning....


[edit on 19-9-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Excuse me but what Ideology are you talking about, for what I have learned with Christianity it seems to be the same when it comes to fundamentalist Christians that wants to bring the ole good days of wife submission and town center stoning.

BTW what Ideology you are talking about, did I say what religion I subscribe to any where in ATS?

Actually I don't believe in Religion but I find them fascinating when it comes how people likes to interpret them to further agendas.


The way you spoke of that Qur'an given you by friends indicated that you might be Muslim. So now I understand. Yet you still seem to have some high regard for Islam. What is the source of that high regard? Have you read the Qur'an given to you by your friends? I suggest you do read it to learn more and go here to learn how learned Muslims and Imams interpret the texts.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum

The way you spoke of that Qur'an given you by friends indicated that you might be Muslim.


And . . . if I was muslin will you hate me for it? Will you hold it against me.

If is something I have learned in my life is to be tolerant to other peoples believes even if they conflict with my own, I am very critical of any religion but if faith is what made your day . . . then good for the soul.

But demoralizing relgion . . . any religion will only bring division and for what I have read so far in this thread I guess that is the agenda.



So now I understand. Yet you still seem to have some high regard for Islam.


Like I said no only Islam but all religions, because their contribution to the world believes to culture and to individuals that follow them.

Will you hold that against me? What do you belief and it is better than any other person believes.



What is the source of that high regard? Have you read the Qur'an given to you by your friends? I suggest you do read it to learn more


Does it matter? to you, to anyone . . . My husband is a retired Marine and he fought in the first gulf war, he met many Arabs people in the military from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, his opinions on the people are very high because they were not his enemy.

I also happen to meet some of the People he meet, in Washington after the war, while visiting the state capitol and to me they were not my enemy either.

So dose it matter that I meet some of the people my husband meet and gave him a Quran as a gift? is that wrong, evil or something to be ashamed of?

You want me to interpret like you have done, but why? What will be the purpose of that? to incite hatred, to demean their holy book?

Just like any other Religion in the world people always has a tendency to interpret their holy texts any way they want.

Or do you thing that they are the only ones that do that?

Now many versions of the bible are out there? How many denominations of Christian churches are out there?

No I have read the Quran and to me is just like any other book that people may look into for guidance when it needed.

And many will use it for evil deeds just like the bible was used and still is use.

It makes no difference because at the end, this thread is having the desirable intent to bring some to agree with what you are tying to prove.

See I don't hate the world or a particular race or Religious group. Is not in my nature to do that.


[edit on 19-9-2006 by marg6043]



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
And . . . if I was muslin will you hate me for it? Will you hold it against me.


Nope. But I'd wonder what was in it for you given the fact that women are concidered and treated as not only sebservient to men; but also as second class citizens.


Originally posted by marg6043
If is something I have learned in my life is to be tolerant to other peoples believes even if they conflict with my own, I am very critical of any religion but if faith is what made your day . . . then good for the soul.


That's nice. Unfortunately, Islamic texts don't mirror the tolerance that you've developed.


Originally posted by marg6043
But demoralizing relgion . . . any religion will only bring division and for what I have read so far in this thread I guess that is the agenda.


What about the division brought on by fundamentalist Islamists? They clearly are against anything unIslamic.


Originally posted by marg6043
Will you hold that against me? What do you belief and it is better than any other person believes.


To me; religion is just one more thing that we (humans) use to polarize each from one-another. Much like skin color. Islam, however, has it's "hands" most of the worlds problems today.


Originally posted by marg6043
Does it matter? to you, to anyone . . . My husband is a retired Marine and he fought in the first gulf war, he met many Arabs people in the military from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, his opinions on the people are very high because they were not his enemy.


At the time, Kuwait appreciated the American's coming to their rescue. But in recent years, there has been a backlash in fundamental Islam with a growing number of people taking on the literal interpretations of Islamic texts.


Originally posted by marg6043
So dose it matter that I meet some of the people my husband meet and gave him a Quran as a gift? is that wrong, evil or something to be ashamed of?


Nothing at all--as long as you read it (and other texts) to understand what it's about. To you. Islam is just another religion. To me, it's the fastest growing ideology in the world today and the kind of belief being spread isn't the peaceful, benevolent, and loving kind of Islam that apologists would like you to believe; but rather, it's the so-caled "extreme" form of Islam that is spreading.


Originally posted by marg6043
You want me to interpret like you have done, but why?


Don't take my word for it. Educate yourself.


Originally posted by marg6043
What will be the purpose of that? to incite hatred, to demean their holy book?


Knowledge is power. Pacifism will lead to the loss of your freedoms.


Originally posted by marg6043
Just like any other Religion in the world people always has a tendency to interpret their holy texts any way they want.


Why aren't there Christians and Buddhists decapitating people today?


Originally posted by marg6043
Or do you thing that they are the only ones that do that?


The difference here is that in most western societies the rule of law is based on constitutional law which for the most part doesn't include religion. Islam has its own set of laws called Sharia. Sharia is completely based religion for it's rule of law. This is why stonings and decapitations are still ocurring in many Islamic countries today. There is a large contingent of people here in the US who would love to see Sharia be the law of the land. CAIR claims to be the organization for the voice of American Muslims. I challenge you to go learn a little about them.


Originally posted by marg6043
It makes no difference because at the end, this thread is having the desirable intent to bring some to agree with what you are tying to prove.


At least I'm providing proof with references as opposed to simply spouting my opinions


Originally posted by marg6043
See I don't hate the world or a particular race or Religious group. Is not in my nature to do that.


Thank you for that. There are millions of Muslims whose nature is to do just that.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
At least I'm providing proof with references as opposed to simply spouting my opinions

Thank you for that. There are millions of Muslims whose nature is to do just that.


Yes you are bringing you own brand of opinion and in a place like ATS it will be plenty to support that opinion.

Yes is million of people that for one reason of another are fighting against US invasion in the middle east as a fight for religion.

So what do you think will be the best approach? kill them all evil Islamic believers? While we are in their lands.

Yes fight fire with fire and disregard the circumstances that has made the middle easter Islam believers the way they are. Blame it on their religious upbringing.

You are doing a great job spreading the love.


[edit on 19-9-2006 by marg6043]



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum

Originally posted by DJMessiah
Would you like to show me where in the Quran it says that a woman must be stoned for adultery? If it's occured, it's not because of the Quran, but the culture.


Sure from the Islam Q&A Website (Bold added for emphasis):

Is it permissible to execute a married adulterer by some method other than stoning, such as killing him with a sword or by shooting him?

Answer (including reference):


It is essential to stone the married adulterer until he dies, following the Sunnah of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as it is proven that he said that, did it and enjoined it.


Those are from the hadith, which I already explained had been written after Muhammad's death by many individuals who were Muslim, non-muslim, and ones who wanted to hurt Islam by putting in their own lies. I'll ask once again. Can you show me where it says in the Quran that an adulterer must be stoned to death?



Nothing at all--as long as you read it (and other texts) to understand what it's about. To you. Islam is just another religion. To me, it's the fastest growing ideology in the world today and the kind of belief being spread isn't the peaceful, benevolent, and loving kind of Islam that apologists would like you to believe; but rather, it's the so-caled "extreme" form of Islam that is spreading.


And let me ask you, how many Muslims have you met to make that assumption about us? It's funny to see people like you denouncing Islam, when they haven't even met a Muslim before, while also preaching hate messages from what they heard from others who share their view. I do believe the KKK raise their children pretty much the same way.

[edit on 19-9-2006 by DJMessiah]



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum

Nope. But I'd wonder what was in it for you given the fact that women are concidered and treated as not only sebservient to men; but also as second class citizens.


Maybe you would like to show me where it says in the Quran that women are less of a human than men. You do understand that Muslim women had the right to vote, own land, divorce, work in government, and were leaders in their community, much longer than many other "civilized" countries such as the US which started voting rights for women no more than 40 years ago.

Since you only like to link to other sites to satisfy your objective, how about looking at this one.

[edit on 19-9-2006 by DJMessiah]



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by XphilesPhan

Also, as of yet, no one has shown me a passage in the NEW TESTAMENT where Jesus says "KILL all disbelievers". (its not in there).

SO I am a firm believer of the evilness of Islam and all righteous men, whether Christian or not, must not allow such evil to spread.





You know, I may be cutting hairs here, but I really don't want to die for not believing in any religion. The Christian God may come five minutes from now, or five years, or whenever. Either way, according to Him, I am going to die and suffer eternal pain for not believing in the Christian God.

A Muslims extremist man may kill me for not being a Muslim extremist.

So whether it's a Christian God, or an extremist Muslim man, any religion where death and eternal suffering is the consequence for not believing should be mocked and scorned. IMHO.

So I really don't see a difference between Christians, Muslims, or anybody else who believes in magic. They all want me dead for not believing in their cults, if not the people, their Gods certainly do. The world would be a better place without all these hocus pocus religions period.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by curme

So I really don't see a difference between Christians, Muslims, or anybody else who believes in magic. They all want me dead for not believing in their cults, if not the people, their Gods certainly do. The world would be a better place without all these hocus pocus religions period.


Tell me about it curme but as you know this thread is about the evilness of Islam no about christianity. So you will not ge a true answer for that one.

If you do then this thread will lose its purpose.





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