Bush's Fight with Congress over Torture Defines Our Character

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
You have no idea what empathy really means, and you have no idea who you think you are talking to.

I do... I just don't care.

Edit for writing this post with too much anger...

Awesome.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
We dont torture because others torture.

We need to not commit torture because we are virtuous.

Because we believe all people are create equal.

We are an advanced civil nation, that is far enough down the path to know better.

Because we are America, the beacon of light.

Let us not torture because the law does not allow it. Let us not torture because it is wrong, and we are wearing the white hats. Being virtuous takes guts and is hard to do,

This is what the USA used to stand for, it is time to stand up and say what is not right again, we used to be a country were peoples rights meant something, it seems know, the rights of people are only something for the gov't to stomp on without any repercussion to them IF they can change the laws.


[edit on 19/9/06 by Keyhole]

[edit on 19/9/06 by Keyhole]

whatever happened to those "compassionate conservatives" that we susposedly elected into office??

it boggles them mind......conservative, as in lower budgets smaller government.......

compassionate, as in the empathy they obviously don't have nor care to have....

wolves in sheep's clothing.

Originally posted by apc
I know this is hard to follow, so to make things easy for you...

in‧fi‧del  /ˈɪnfɪdl, -ˌdɛl/
–noun
1. Religion.
...
c. (in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith; kaffir.

It means "pagan." Christians and Jews are not "Kaffirs" or "Infidels," but "People of the Book."

Certainly not a beacon of light or an example of freedome anymore.

As much as I used to get angry with americans for always boasting that they are the land of the free, while completley ignoring all of the other free countries out there... I am very saddened to see such a large population fall back into dictatorship.

I have to blame a lack of will from the people though. Not one by one, but the collective will of the people just isn't enough to want to do anything about it... and thats EXACTLY how dictatorships get back in.

I still meet the odd american, still boasting that the US is the land of the free... I used to see it as arrogance, ingorance, and get angry accordingly... but now, all I can feel for them is pity. I feel sad that they are so blind to the fact that the US is no longer the free country it was founded to be.

So, essentially you have a choice, you can either band up, and do something about it, as your constitution still states you can... or you can move to Canada. We're pretty nice people here, we won't pick fights with you, especially if you're escaping another country. You see, that's how the free Americas was originally founded... taking in people from foreign countries, who want a better life. It's a shame the US no longer holds to that.

Originally posted by DJMessiah
It means "pagan." Christians and Jews are not "Kaffirs" or "Infidels," but "People of the Book."

Far be it for me to argue with the dictionary...

johnsky: I think this entire issue shows that we are in fact not anywhere near a dictatorship.

You're trying to argue with someone who speaks fluent Arabic.

That's nice. From what I can tell, your interpretation is a topic of much debate.

But, regardless of what your opinion may be on the English meaning of kaffir, the present context... "death to the infidels" ... seems clear.

Perhaps the mainstream Muslim culture shares your understanding of the definition. But obviously we are not dealing with mainstream Muslim culture. We are dealing with militant radicals, who no matter how much you may disagree with their usage, they refer to all non-Muslims as infidels. If you have a problem with this, you my friend are trying to argue with the wrong person.

APC,

Why is it so hard for you to see this? You were lied to from your government about the reasons for war. You were lied to by your government on how the war was going. You were lied to from your government on how the troops were treated, how the troops were treating others, how the citizens were reacting - all of it - all lies. All by your government to your fellow citizens. These lies have cost your country how many lifes? Senselessly thrown away from lies. How many families have been torn apart, because of lies.

To trust in any government is probably a silly thing, but allowing this crew to remain at the WH is beyond absurd.

The interesting thing, IMO, will be when the enevitable war crime charges start to rain down. Will the american people take another one for the Team, or will they hand their leader over as they have demanded from other countries with wanted leaders before, or will there be another set of rules drawn up for the Bush gang?

Was there a point to that rant?

Why do you assume so much about me? (that's rhetorical btw... I already know the answer)

All I have stated is I don't mind manipulating our enemy and forcing information from them. Does your ignorant bickering having anything to do with that?

This is the News Network, let's knock off the insults.

Originally posted by apc

All I have stated is I don't mind manipulating our enemy and forcing information from them.

Nobody say that we should stop gathering information from detainees, what we are trying to do is making a point as to what standards our government, the government of this nation, our nation that is held right now by every eyes in the world to keep the highest standards of decency and human rights.

We can never ever lower ourselves to any other groups out there that do not go by the rules of decency and human rights.

We are the example for the world and we should always abide by that.

No, nobody is telling to stop the interrogation of people that have information that can put our nation in danger.

Indeed... I would be rather put off if I were to learn that detainees were sliced ear to ear and have their bodies strung up in New York's Central Park.

But, what defines torture needs to be clarified. What some call torture, I call forceful manipulation, and it's A-OK in my book.

Sadist... sociopath... I've heard it all before. Maybe there's some truth to it. I don't exactly lose sleep over it. I just don't care what someone thinks about me as long as their stated purpose is to kill me. At that point, all I care about is killing them first, and finding out how to more easily kill their comrades.

The bottom line is, are we as good and decent and moral that we as a society claim to be, or are we no better than the societies and states that we condemn...with the only difference being the nature of our rhetoric?

There are those of us on both the left and the right who want us to at the very least live up to our ideals, if not to actually exceed them.

And there are those of us on both the right and the left who would use those ideals cynically as a mask to hide our baser natures.

I want us to be better than our ideals.

just out of curiousity, why are we debating the meaning of infidel......would it matter if all the christians, jews, were exempt from their desire to murder and their desires were only aimed at pagans, buddhists, hindus, athiests and other non-judeochristian religions? I don't see the relevance here....should foreign policy change, public opinion change, just because we were to realize that hey, they have no desire to kill the christians, just everyone else?

It was a tangent derived from the argument that the whole reason these idiots hate the rest of us so much and are blowing themselves up in the middle of crowds of people and smashing planes into buildings, etc... is somehow because of corporate expansion and globalization. Which is a fundamentally flawed argument due to the fact that these attacks have been taking place for a very, very long time.

And even if there were once speck of substance to the argument... that the reason these attacks take place is because a McDonalds showed up on the corner next to some Mosque, I think that's still a pretty good reason to eradicate them like the vermin that they are. "How dare you let your corporation expand here! Now I'm going to go blow myself up in a room full of innocent civilians!" It'd be nice to just let them kill themselves off, but unfortunately they would take far too many innocents out with them.

If any charges come out of this whole torture ordeal, it should be cruelty to animals with time served.

APC you have no idea what you are talking about.

People around the world, not just Muslims or mid-easterners, but people around the world have repeatedly cited the U.S. policies, not the people of America, our governmental/corporate policies for a deep abiding resentment for America that is almost global in its reach.

Of course I don't expect you to understand that.

Also, these terrorist attacks HAVE NOT been going on a long time... for the most part they extend back only to 1947 (the foundation of Israel) and in all reality it wasn't until the late 60's that the Palestinian extremists started attacking people outside of Israel, and it wasn't until the early 80's that it became endemic.

Originally posted by apc
If it helps achieve victory...

There's always therapy.

Do you actually think "Therapy" will help anyone that is being tortured, come on do you really beleive that ???

If so than here's a good long read from a woman that went through such a thing and is STILL having to deal with it , thanks to our Gov't.


Acknowledgements. 3

Foreward by Walter Bowart: Thanks for the Memmemmormee!?. 8

Historical Overview: Mind Control in the Modern Context. 14

Project Monarch: Nazi Mind Control by Ron Patton. 16

Manufacturing the Mind Controlled Slave. 29

Awakening to the Realities of Mind Control 36

Authors's Introduction. 41

Chapter One: The Creation of Human Robot. 47

Chapter Two: Early Childhood Preparation. 50

Chapter Three: We’re Off to See the Wizard. 67

Chapter Four: Uncle Charlie, Kissinger, Hope and their Little Puppet. 77

Chapter Five: Initiation into the Political Arena as a Sex Slave. 89

Chapter Six: JFK and the Sex Shuttle. 100

Chapter Seven: All the way with LBJ. 111

Chapter Eight: Brain Surgery at UCLA took away my Father’s Free Will 116

Chapter Nine: They didn’t see me as Human. 120

Chapter Ten: Introduced to Governor Ronald Reagan. 129

Chapter Eleven: Mind Control in the Prisons. 133

Chapter Twelve: Nixon, Kissinger, and International Business. 140

Chapter Thirteen: Bob Hope “Let me entertain you.”. 164

Chapter Fourteen: Parties at the Rockefellers. 179

Chapter Fifteen: Hope and Kissinger Utilize the Kennedy Family. 194

Chapter Sixteen: Viva Las Vegas. 199

Chapter Seventeen: The Rat Pack. 209

Chapter Eighteen: Gerald Ford. 224

Chapter Nineteen: My Programmed Marriage – We’ve Only Just Begun. 228

Chapter Twenty: Jimmy Carter. 231

Chapter Twenty-one: The Hollywood Connection. 232

Chapter Twenty-two: Prince Phillip, Prince Charles, and Princess Di 248

Chapter Twenty-three: They Stole My Baby. 252

Chapter Twenty-four: USC: Higher Education or Mind Control 255

Chapter Twenty-five: Baby Monarchs are Born. 264

Chapter Twenty-six: Dodger Diamonds. 294

Chapter Twenty-seven: Education 2000.. 299

Chapter Twenty-eight: Reagan, Kissinger, Bush and More Horrors. 304

Chapter Twenty-nine: Back to the Future. 313

Chapter Thirty: UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute. 323

Chapter Thirty-one: Weaponry Technology of the Future. 328

Chapter Thirty-two: Robot Breakdown. 336

Chapter Thirty-three: Bill Clinton and Hillary. 340

Chapter Thirty-four: Excuse Me, I Would Like My Life Back. 344

Chapter Thirty-five: Secret Societies. 364

Chapter Thirty-six: The Council’s Plan. 367

Chapter Thirty-seven: What the World Needs Now.. 378

Chapter Thirty-eight: A Mother and Grandmother’s Sorrow.. 388

Epilogue. 395

Survivor Resources. 400

Suggested Reading. 401




Then we have good ole Jeb Bush that is allowing torture to go on in HIS State of FL to kids

www.justice4kids.org...

a friend of mine's son was ordered to be sent to that place just because he got into a tussle with another kid (who by the way started the fight ), the boy was in his early teens when sent there and was almost legal age when finally releast from that place.
Kids were tortured so badly there that a few had died from their injuries.

any kind of torture is satanic and cruel, but that goes to show that the Bush Brother's have more in common than what people think

Torture needs to be done to the Bushes and Cheneys first so they can get a good taste of it and understand why it is wrong to do it to other people !!!

Therapy is like mental magic! Torture... bullet lodged in the frontal lobe... it can fix anything!

Torture needs to be done to the Bushes and Cheneys first so they can get a good taste of it and understand why it is wrong to do it to other people !!!

Thanks for unravelling the entire 'do on to others' argument. Couldn't have done it better myself.

>

grover
Also, these terrorist attacks HAVE NOT been going on a long time... for the most part they extend back only to 1947 (the foundation of Israel) and in all reality it wasn't until the late 60's that the Palestinian extremists started attacking people outside of Israel, and it wasn't until the early 80's that it became endemic.

That's partly what I was referring to. So many lefties try and say the whole reason they hate us is because of Starbucks, or because we put bases in Saudi after Desert Storm. It's all BS. But, the history of violence against the innocent goes back to the "Prophet" Mohammad himself.

Btw, I am in no way saying that all Muslims are like this. The problem children are the ones who take the Koran literally. Equally problematic as Christians who take the Bible literally.

[edit on 20-9-2006 by apc]

Here is a letter written by Colin Powell to Senator John McCain on his feelings about the President trying to change Article 3 of The Geneva Convention.

Colin Powell Letter to John McCain

In this letter, Powell says,

"The world is begining to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism. To redifine Common Article 3 would add to those doubts."

"I am familiar with 'The Armed Forces Officer' as is Jack Vessey. It was written after all the horrors of World War II, and General C. Marshall, then Secretary of Defense, used it to tell the world and to remind our soldiers of our moral obligations with respect to those in our custody."

By even attempting to change Article 3, we are showing the world that we are lowering our morals, which defines our character as a nation.

If our country wants to be respected by the rest of the world, our country is going to have to repect the rights of ALL people.


[edit on 20/9/06 by Keyhole]