Out of ammunition?

According to the correspondant Christopher Leake writing in the UKs Mail on Sunder newspaper, an officer serving with 3 Para in Afghanistan, sent an email home stating that his men ran out of 7.62mm GPMG Link and mortar rounds during a recent 15 minute firefight with Taliban forces.

According to the article, the men were within RPG range but managed to keep the Taliban at bay with their Generals and either 51mm or 81mm mortars, when they ran dangerously short of ammunition and had to rely on their individual weapons.

Also in another article in the Sunday Express written by Nail Chandler from Camp Bastion [Helmand Province], a two vehicle patrol was ambushed by Taliban forces as they recce'd a ford across a river.

Luckily for the Paras, the exploding mortar rounds shredded the Rover's tyres as the shingle caused the shrapnel to fly sidewards and not upwards. In the resulting 15 minute engagement, 7,000 rounds were fired by 'D' Coy at the Taliban insurgents who were apparently in well concealed positions.

I think these two articles refer to the same action, but I could be wrong.

Interestingly, MOD states:

'We are unable to investigate this on the details provided. We're not aware of any specific incidents when troops ran out of ammunition.

The MOD statment goes on:

'Equipping our troops and making sure they have the resources and the means to do their jobs and defend their positions is an absolute priority'.

It beggars belief that front line troops are having their lives put in danger through an alledged ammunition supply problem.

Of course one must remember that they [the troops] are there to rebuild the Afghanistan and are not fighting a war.

At least that's what the government would have us believe!

The question is whether there are really supply problems or whether the troops in question just expended all the ammo they were carrying - you can only carry so much.

We have seen / heard it all before. One ranting officer causes front page coverage.

Anyway, as this is a NATO operation, I am sure shortages in one area could (and probably are) resolved by othe nations as the ammo is interchangable - is it not.

Regards

Originally posted by paraphi
The question is whether there are really supply problems or whether the troops in question just expended all the ammo they were carrying - you can only carry so much.

We have seen / heard it all before. One ranting officer causes front page coverage.

Anyway, as this is a NATO operation, I am sure shortages in one area could (and probably are) resolved by othe nations as the ammo is interchangable - is it not.

Regards

I find your reply somewhat insensative, my friend.

'Whether the troops in question just expended all the ammo they were carrying - you can only carry so much'.

Yes, they probably did but, they were fighting for their lives!

From the accounts of 'One ranting officer causes front page coverage', as you put it, 'D' Coy/3 Para were involved in a company action and were trying to fight through a well prepared ambush.

It's so easy to pass judgement from the safety of an armchair and your comment,
'Anyway, as this is a NATO operation, I am sure shortages in one area could (and probably are) resolved by othe nations as the ammo is interchangable - is it not', fall very short of the mark, especially when you're up to your neck in incoming RPG and machinegun fire!

At the moment our government would like to train soldiers to have a one shot one kill style training to save on military costs so no wonder they ran out of ammunition

Originally posted by Neutrino
At the moment our government would like to train soldiers to have a one shot one kill style training to save on military costs so no wonder they ran out of ammunition

What?

Did you not read my original post and the above replies? They were fighting for their lives! It has nothing to do with the individual soldier's skill in shooting.

It is about putting down suppressing fire and winning the firefight, thus enabling others to assault the enemy's position.

Nothing to do with MOD training.

Originally posted by fritz
I find your reply somewhat insensative, my friend.

I am sorry you have taken it that way and I intended (and intend) no insensitivity, but the fact remains that troops can only carry so much ammo. Running out of ammo during an engagement does not indicate wider supply problems.

As for "ranting officers"... I am afraid that much of the negativity about the military (in my humble opinion) is because members of the said military seem to run to the press at every turn and this turns everything political and the press relish the chance to drag our services down.

Regards

This is what happens when you spend more on computers than you do ammo.

Ok the weapons you posted about are crew served. It is not unusal to run out of ammo for these during a sustained firefight. The standard combat load for the 7.62 is only 1000 rounds. Cant speak about the mortors.

It IS a matter of how much ammunition you have on hand. Ammo, especially mortar rounds are heavy and there is only so much weight that a soldier can carry effectivly. There are alot of varibles that aren't mentioned here so I hesitate to criticize anyone, but 7,000 rounds in 15 minutes does seem to be a bit excessive. I'm surprised that they couldn't get some air support or a resupply helo though. Also if they had 7,000 rounds with them, it doesn't sound like there is much of a supply problem. Things like this are one of the reasons that the US Army removed full auto from the M-16A2 and left single shot and 3 shot bursts.

JIMC5499 said, 'There are alot of varibles that aren't mentioned here so I hesitate to criticize anyone, but 7,000 rounds in 15 minutes does seem to be a bit excessive'.

Normally I'd would agree, but if you'd read the article or bothered to read my post, you would've seen that I referred to 7.62mm. I did not mention 5.56mm.

The background is that 2 vehs of 'D' Coy/3 Para, were conducting a recce of a ford in a river and sprang an ambush.

It is my understanding that the vehs were specialist Recce 'Defender' SOVs and are armed with either 2 x 7.62 mm Generals and 1 x .50, or 3 Generals and 1 x Milan ATGW.

Coupled with the fact that they were taking sustained and accurate smallarms fire and RPGs, it is feasable that 7,000 rounds of 7.62mm were expended.

Just think for a mo about what ultralo1 said, 'The standard combat load for the 7.62 is only 1000 rounds.'

In my book, that adds up to 6,000 rds of 7.62 milly plus reloads, assuming the vehs had 3 Generals on board.

As to the mortar rounds, one can only assume they were light mortars of 51mm, because 81mm are usually carried by support Coys.

Complaing about running out of ammo, and fireing 7000 rounds of a artiliry shell of some kind.......

Its like how the US millitary gave Isreal cluster bombs for use durring the lebadon war/conflict, and shortly after a inquirey is happeing on wither or not they were misssused, or used uneticaly. Are the higher ups who made the decision somehow at all surprised about this, how do you not missuse a clusterbomb in a densly populated urban area.

Can people not even conect the dots of logic in their heads? If not they should not ever be in charge of something so dangerous and important as the millitary. They should be in command of a hot-dog stand instead.

The major conspericy I see here is how stupid and degenarate people are these days, and geting worse. Perhaps due to floride or other chemeicals in drinking or toxic chemicals in the environment stunting physical and mental health (mabey add spirital to that).

Growing amount of fat seems to be cloging peoples brains of any sort of wisdom.

Think about it, plato was sentanced to death when he was 70 (could have lived decades more sprouting conterversial ideas), some other anchent greek guy was still writing plays when he was 90. And another a general and fighting in a army when 80. They did things in their advanded age, few if any of us can expect to do in our physical and mental peak of youth. You can't expect to live to their age, and do what they did.