Is the Pope right for speaking up about Islam as no one else has...

dbrandt
No it doesn't
you are wrong
I don't know where you're gtting your info, but I'd look for another translation, or learn Arabic.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
dbrandt
No it doesn't
you are wrong
I don't know where you're gtting your info, but I'd look for another translation, or learn Arabic.

Nope, I have seen and read and heard too much to not believe it.

Originally posted by dbrandt
Nope, I have seen and read and heard too much to not believe it.

From whom?
Objective sources please.

Originally posted by firebat
Let's see....

The Crusaders... Christians.
Most of the southern slave-owners in colonial America through the 1800's.
Most proponents of slavery in America were Christians.
The IRA bombers... Christians.
Timothy McVeigh... Christian.
Abortion-Clinic bombers... Christian.
Bush.... Christian.
Most members of the Ku Klux Klan... Christian.

Countless other examples.

And you think Muslims are the only violent ones? Please... that's a laughable argument that no serious scholar of religion would even consider.

1.The Crusaders..The crusades were a response to years of Islamic agression, occupation (of christian lands) and conquest from the years...613-1091. Although yes, the Crusaders did much the same in response. Why do people constantly make out the 'Crusades' to be a one-way street?

2. Most people in America at the time were Christians, even the people who OPPOSED slavery. Just as people that have be brought up in a Christian family and yet don't practice religon, are called Christians or even call themselves Christians. Traditional Sharia law allows Muslims to enslave kids as young as 10, even to THIS VERY DAY.

3. IRA was an armed resistance struggle to unify Ireland, Most of the Irish were Catholic, most of the English and Northern Irelanders were Protestant. It wasn't religiously motivated per see. Nationalism was the route cause. Yes they have commited terrorist attrocities, granted.

4. It is still deabated to day whether Timothy Mcveigh was a Christian, and you will find that his motivation for the bombing was his anti-government stance and also his anger over the Waco incident (which many of out conspiracy theorists on this board are angry about to, it doesn't have to be a religious matter) Why would an alledged Roman Catholic care so much about a wild offshoot of protestant chrisitianity? Ooh and I forgot the alleged co-operation with Islamist groups in Indonesia

5. Abortion Clinic Bombings. Although there is no justification in this, its hardly racially motivated, in contrast to much of the Islamofacist movement today

6. Bush. Well he's a liar, he lies everyday in his job, he goes to a Grove and partakes in mock sacrifices. Not a Christian.

7. Again most people in America, Christians, but yes they were vile and violent. Some believe they were actually Occultists (not christian) or even Masons (believe in a higher being)

[edit on 24-10-2006 by Peyres]

Peyres,
You just showed something very important. Just because some members of a group act a certain way doesn't mean that the whole group is this way.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

From whom?
Objective sources please.

Verses in the Koran, the life of Muhammad, the hijackers on 9/11, the other terrorists and the bombings they did around the world, Osama bin Laden, the muslim cleric from Lebanon who was fighting Israel recently, Yassir Arafat's legacy, the current president of Iran, the videos of palestinains and muslims teaching their children in school that they are to fight Israel, the daily news, Hezbollah, Hamas, the reality of the world today.

[edit on 24-10-2006 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
maybe the problem is just religion in general

when you start telling people that illogical beliefs are fine to have, they start to have more and more of them

eventually, someone with illogical beliefs will get violent illogical beliefs, and convince the already weakened minds of the other followers of a certain religion to believe the same

and then you get religious violence

Thank you!

It's tough to overcome all these illogical beliefs when your social group also believes in illogical ideas. Catholic parents will usually have catholic kids, muslim parents...muslim kids. So when someone says some of your religious beliefs are wrong, people don't care because they find comfort in their ancestral heritage and don't want to break the chain or enslavement. Going it alone is a difficult walk. For some Muslims it means you are killed.

Also you will find those that think illogically and have difficult or undisciplined lives, find comfort in illogical religious beliefs that force discipline into their lives. I have found a lot of odd and addictive personalities in many churches. There are some very intelligent people too, but they kind of explain away things or are more interested in just having a good family atmosphere to raise a family than discussing why their belief system has some very illogical and dangerous ideas.

Unfortunately the addictive personalities sometimes seem to grow in power in the church or mosque and end up leading their religion down the wrong path of literalism, extremism, and fascism because no one wants to question their "God-backed statements" from their "good" book. Then they run smack dab into the "real world" and find out that us rational people aren't going to put up with their nonsense, so they threaten us because they have no identity outside of their religion. They reach into their magic bag of "God's words" and throw it all over the place trying to fool even more people that the "rational" infidels are the ones not to believe. Who are you going to believe a rational infidel or God? Too bad God's name gets hijacked so many times by these nuts and tied to the end of a gun or sword. The "religious magic words" do work...at least for a little while until the more powerful "truth-magic" arises.

Luckily God is rational (look at the order of his universe) and history has proven that the rational are able to overcome the zealots. The fanatical Muslims will be defeated...they'll never disappear, but they will be defeated either by force or logic. Millions may die before that happens and that may be the "suffering" that needs to happen so that people realize they are not thinking things out right. But millions more will be born afterwards and hopefully have a happier life.

The Pope may or may not have the right thinking behind his statements, but someone has to say it. It would be even better if the intellectuals and Nobel Prize winners of this world would also challenge the Muslim world instead of laying low.

Originally posted by dbrandt
Verses in the Koran,

Which ones?

the life of Muhammad

how so?

the hijackers on 9/11,

Aside from their being muslim, how so?

the other terrorists and the bombings they did around the world, Osama bin Laden,

Example of hasty generalization, but I'm sure you won't read the link.

the muslim cleric from Lebanon who was fighting Israel recently, Yassir Arafat's legacy, the current president of Iran,

See above

the videos of palestinains and muslims teaching their children in school that they are to fight Israel,

What about the videos of Israeli soldiers shooting Palestinian children. Still beside the point. Aside from the Palestinians being Muslim, how does this mean Islam the religion is to blame?

the daily news,

Very discerning. Are you watching CNN, MSNBC, FOX news, or all of thee above?

Hezbollah, Hamas,

Hasty Generalization

the reality of the world today.

As far as I can tell, all you know of reality is what you've seen on TV. Lets hope you don't switch to quickly between The Incredible Hulk and CNN otherwise you might think that a terrible green monster is terrorizing the middle east.


[edit on 25-10-2006 by Rasobasi420]

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

From whom?
Objective sources please.

Verses in the Koran [...]

Tell us, did you actually read the Quran, or are these misquoted verses you read from anti-Islamic websites?

I would suggest you read my replies in these threads, regarding these verses so many websites like to take out of context:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

and

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just wanted to add, who would prefer like to live in an Islamic law or a democracy or a Christain democracy?

I would not like to live in a society where Islam is shoved down my throat having to say, women covered up and use capital punishment by the sword and amputatations for stealing, lashing women or executions that is all taken from the same book what ever the interpratation. Sometimes I feel the Koran gives people individual rights to do as they please rather than send a message of fair justice. i could be wrong but it seems the koran inspires individuals to take the law into their own hands. As we see with kidnappers, but yes they can be accused for being wrong in the Islamic world but the problem seems more familair with islam than a Christian indivuals doing the kidnappings and bombings in todays modern world.

If Islam supodesly shows tollerance towards other religions in scripture who is distorting it? And does that mean a mojority of Islamic countries are not really true muslims? Who are the true Muslims? The ones who are moderate and live in a domocracy or the ones living in the Middle east? To be a moderate does one has to live in the West? Just a few things to think about.
Is Islamic laws cruel to be kind? Or are decomocracies soft to be cruel?

I need to wake up I guess I can have an opinion on what i think maybe later.

He has every right to speak his mind. Especially when what he says is the truth. The true crime is the fact that he backed off of his comments. Fear of backlash......

The ultimate goal of islam is to attain global domination especially in western nations.
In the U.K. the baton of politial correctness is used against the native population for oppression of opinion and speech and our spineless Government ministers do nothing to quell the tsunami of unwanted immigrants flooding this island nation irrespective of cultural differences thay are humbly forced upon us - the taxpayers.
Whatever statement of fact or opinion said by any civic or ecclesiastical (spelling?) representative or leader will always offend the radicals in Islamic communities.
Watch out, citizens and natives of the U.K. your privilage of free speech is fastly decaying under the tide of do nothing political leaders and cowardly local political representatives.
I am employed in an industry where one wrong word, privately overheard joke or conversation, is likely to bring down the wrath of management who will respond like a blow from Thors' hammer.
The death rattle of freedom of speech is almost upon us and like a timid mouse we all accept it in one form or another. If we say anything with wisps of sexism, homophobia, racial or religeous tints to it there are always a ready supply of people willing to distort our words or opinions and twist it out of context.
I could tubthump this subject for volumes yet but I'll spare you.
Brit's, your liberties are setting like the last rays of the evening sun. Accept the white hot coals of the new order of oppression handed out to us courtesy of our feeble political leaders. Rule Brittainia....Pahhh!

Originally posted by The time lord

I would not like to live in a society where Islam is shoved down my throat having to say, women covered up and use capital punishment by the sword and amputatations for stealing, lashing women or executions that is all taken from the same book what ever the interpratation. Sometimes I feel the Koran gives people individual rights to do as they please rather than send a message of fair justice. i could be wrong but it seems the koran inspires individuals to take the law into their own hands.

The problem with this statement is that it's completely based on media interpretations of Islam.

There are plenty of Muslim countries that treat their citizens with respect and dignity. You say "whatever the interpretation", but that's not true. It's only certain interpretations, by the minority of people. Unfortunately, too many people base their entire opinion on what Rupert Murdoch tells them.

Originally posted by Sight2reality
He has every right to speak his mind. Especially when what he says is the truth. The true crime is the fact that he backed off of his comments. Fear of backlash......

Just like the KKK can say that they are superior to people with darker skin, as we all are allowed freedom of speech. That makes it legal, it doesn't make it smart, loving, or true, though. First, what he said was not the truth, just the twisted, hateful views of a long dead anti-Muslim Christian fanatic.
As for his backing off, he did not do that out of fear, or he would have actually apologized for having repeated the quote which was so blatantly antagonistic to Muslims as well as many others such as me.
He made a posibve out of it by using it as a springboard to open a dialogue with Islamic leaders.
We each have the right to spout bigotry any time we want, but why would one want to?

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII

Originally posted by Sight2reality
He has every right to speak his mind. Especially when what he says is the truth. The true crime is the fact that he backed off of his comments. Fear of backlash......

Just like the KKK can say that they are superior to people with darker skin, as we all are allowed freedom of speech. That makes it legal, it doesn't make it smart, loving, or true, though. First, what he said was not the truth, just the twisted, hateful views of a long dead anti-Muslim Christian fanatic.
As for his backing off, he did not do that out of fear, or he would have actually apologized for having repeated the quote which was so blatantly antagonistic to Muslims as well as many others such as me.
He made a posibve out of it by using it as a springboard to open a dialogue with Islamic leaders.
We each have the right to spout bigotry any time we want, but why would one want to?

you really didn't read the actual speech that the Pope made, did ya?

Before I read his word for word translation of the medieval quote which Benedict agreed to include in his speech, I was not offended because I had yet to read it for myself. Then I read the damning, blatantly insulting, untrue, nonsensical hatemongering for myself, and I felt that he had not made a good decision when he shared it with billions of people. Maybe he didn't know what he was reading? He may have just read what he was given... But I doubt that. And when he did not apologize for his gaffe, but instead stated he was sorry that people were offended, I decided what I felt about the whole thing. He knew what he was saying, knew what it would do, and refused to admit that he made a mistake by ever including such a divisive quote in a speech that he knew the whole world would hear.
But you are right, I didn't read the whole thing. What did I miss?

Who cares, the Catholic Church is (and almost always has been) a greedy, and most times evil, organization. Following the Pope isn't smart.

Mother Teresa was a modern day saint, a true hero, a shining example of spiritual devotion and love, and she was Catholic. To me, she has no peers among today's greatest figures. It is not easy to say that. Martin Luther King Jr., Mahatma Gandhi, Aung San Suu Kyi, and Nelson Mandela are some of the names I think of when I ponder her peers. While they are all great, and they all have changed the world for the better, I still feel in my heart that no one compares to her. I don't think that, I feel it. Logically, maybe one could argue someone else, or many others, are better role models, but my choice is not based on logic. She tended to the poorest of the poor as though she was tending to Jesus himself.... hard to beat.

There's nothing wrong with Catholics.

Originally posted by Johnmike
There's nothing wrong with Catholics.

Or with the followers of any other belief system.