For all the Athiests.........

Originally posted by dominicusIt is in this enlightenment that prayers get answered seemingly over-night, because in this state you are already content with everything, and only basic needs or spiritual needs come up and are asked for.

So you seem to playing the true christian enlightenment card. Why did god forsake these people, they were believers? Were they not good enough? From what I gather, christianity involves accepting Jesus as a saviour and divine and that he died for our sins - not being able to see demons and auras.

How do you know that what you feel is no more than a mental condition?

I can see why you would see me as "a drug pusher" type, as this enlightenment of God, is like the greatest drug in all of existence. It is pure Love indwelling in your being, one that is invisible, yet can be felt, and sometimes manifestations of it can be seen by others. This Pure Love makes you content and it doesn't matter whether you have a girlfriend/wife or not, because the Love relationship between you and God fulfills you in all ways. It is so Pure that it makes yo automatically Love all people including starngers. Such a thing is not possible to do by yourself because of the "ego."

Ego dissolution can be acquired by other means. It need not lead to god, just a greater understanding of self.

So that's what troubles me, is that yourself and others that share your view would go your whole existence without experieincing this awsome beyond words state and oneness with God. I don't know you personally, but I would give away all my belongings and sacrifice myself for you to taste God in the way that I speak of.

It is a real experieince that let's you know first-hand that God exists and makes you bow down to the overwhelming power of Love. God is pure inifinite Love and yet non of our minds can even comprehend that. If you have a wife and parents that you Love dearly, it is not even a fraction of what God feels like.

I enjoy our debates, but if you come away with one thing form what I have said, let it be that I know the truth to be that God is real. I searched for and God showed himself. This search is available to all and very few genuinely do so.

I believe you think it is real.

I have many experiences that I hold dear to my heart. I have no 'god-shaped' hole.

If you need this belief to feel fulfilled I would not want to take it from you, but not all are unfulfilled without it.

[edit on 2-12-2006 by melatonin]

Melatonin,
I hear you on everything, and I think we both took our sides as far as we could go with them respectively and I love this debate. God doesn't forsake people, but they simply forsake themselves. For example you have kids and knowing that there is a slight chance they could grow up to be immoral, social outcasts, or criminals and yet you took that chance because chances are you'll raise them right !!! Now if they decide to rebel against you and live that lifestyle, you will still love them uncondinitionally even though they may refuse and reject you.

The same goes for eveyone else, as God loves everyone unconditionally and yet many refuse to achknowledge, look the other way, or just flat out don't believe. He is there, it just takes some self work to see and know this, since from the day we were all born, we are bombarded with programming based on what our parents and society thinks is right. What I'm saying is that everything you like and the way you are is not really you, but a culmination of your observations, environment, and some innateness (though most of that is blocked off). The Spiritual Enlightenment breaks away all the false "you's" and whats left standing is the real you completely innate with no outside influences what-so-ever. It is in this state that you finally feel free and content. It is pure happiness with no outside stimuli except God blessing you with this state.

Seeing auras and spiritual by-prducts is just a bonus side effect of this enlightenment. How can it be a nuerolgical disorder when it happened to me as I was at the peak of my Spiritual quest of searching and Loving God with my all being? How is it nuerlogical if people all over the world report the same thing and the Bible also describes what this enlightenment will be like when you finally get "there" ? It's all there... do these things, believe, have faith for a little while , follow the steps and this is where you will be. It's a manual to be free, know God, see God, and how to get there.

You say not all are unfulfilled without God, such as yourself correct? But how do you really know? What if it is an illusion that you are content without God? I mean I have a family and friends that I love dearly, I Love music to death, and really enjoy different cuisines from around the world. But so what!!!! Those things all pass away with time as will all of us. What would you do if everything you loved was taken away from you by fate? You see even what you Love is not absolute and if you are away from what you Love, you miss that. With God, he gives you a self-fulfilling perpetual Love that goes out to all people(strangers too) in the same amount that you Love your wife, parents, and kids multipled by thousands.

There is a suicide every 30 seconds on this planet, and yes some of them are also labeled Christians. Call that what you want, but something is definately going wrong in this bleekness where we all have to die eventually and the good times you get are short but sweet. That's the way it is with no Absolutes, whereas the one who has Spiritual Enlightenment laughs at death(in act looks forward to it and can't wait!!!!) and handles life's biggest obstacles by simply brushing off a shoulder.

Who knows, you may be genuinely content with what you have..... but then there's always the quest of getting more of that and the cycle of getting more never ceases both monaterily and emotionally. There is also the cycle of making sure you are always content or searching for more contentness. Almost everyone's on the illusuory quest that if they get more of "what-ever" they will finally be happy, and that never comes. So perhaps you have figured this out and remain content, and yet can you also say this about your curiosity? Because this aspect of you is also in search of something more or a final explanation to everything.

Our differences is that I can stand up and know with my whole being that when I say God is real in a stadium full of people, that I speak the truth, and that there is no way anyone can prove or will ever be able to prove otherwise, and I would sacrifice myself for this statement. It's actually the other way around where we are still to come into the age of Divine Intervention within our existence to a time when no can doubt the truth. My form of absoluteness is that I have researched the Bible, followed, and recieved first hand proof coupled with experiences and additional faculties that only other Spiritually Enlightened people have and can spot each other in a stadium full of people. When you reach this state, it's as if you get hit by a bolt of lightning and you survive renewed and better than before. It is unmistakable and more precious than the birth of unnumerable first borns.

If you choose to remain a bystander than so be it, as I really hope that existence will all work itself out at the end. But knowing that there is a reality like the one I, and many others, live in, won't that start to chew away at your curiosity that we really might be on to the truth, or are you just fine where you are with the the rest of the masses?? What I refer to is Neo taking the red pill and seeing what really is behind our existence or taking a peak behind the veil.

So add into the mix the following; unexplainable anomolies, medical miracles, NDE's with remote location witnessing and proof, haunted places having "spirits" that can be measured on select equipment, the fact that there are people claiming spiritual enlightenment, and the intelligent complexity of existence itself. Doesn't that spark your mind that there is definately something behind this all???? There are several absolutes in life, but with people from all sides of all arguments labeling absolutes differently, its no wonder that its difficult to figure out whats what.

Until you give the Bible a genuine shot yourself and really look into the book, your just a window shopping spectator who either makes your own specualtion or you copy the specualtion of the next man. And yet the paradox is that it's all there for you to be able to break through the veil. The truth has been before you this whole time as truth itself is timeless. When-ever an absolute truth is dicovered, is has been that way before its discovery and will remian that way. So you have before you a book that is timeless divinely inspired absolute truth and you only have to read what the most important commandment is, that will let you see the truth of it all !!

Originally posted by dominicus
So add into the mix the following; unexplainable anomolies, medical miracles, NDE's with remote location witnessing and proof, haunted places having "spirits" that can be measured on select equipment, the fact that there are people claiming spiritual enlightenment, and the intelligent complexity of existence itself. Doesn't that spark your mind that there is definately something behind this all????

Many things are currently unexplainable, does not support the supernatural. Lightning was unexplainable just a few hundred years back, same for many other phenomena.

Medical miracles was outlined earlier. Medicine is not a fantastically predicitve science, misdiagnoses are made, the body is complex, the psychological effects of placebo are real. Prayer studies have conclusively showed that under controlled methods, prayers do nothing useful but positive thinking does. Still waiting for that amputee to sprout a new limb - I'll make a prediction, science will do it before your god.

NDE and location viewing has not confirmed what you believe it has. Researchers are studying it in a controlled fashion, maybe you'll be better waiting before filling the supernatural in this gap in knowledge.

Haunted places have not been showed to have 'spirits'. As you claimed earlier, some just show changes in temperature and other physical measurable characteristics. No evidence for the supernatural.

Claiming supernatural spiritual enlightenment is not the same as it being evidence for the supernatural. Schizophrenics who claim they are Napolean or anosognosics who deny the existence of a paralysed limb are not validated by a simple claim.

Intelligent complexity? I thought we went through this before. The universe seems rather unintelligently created, 99% of all species to have existed are extinct, life seems pretty rare in the universe, not exactly the best use of reseources, I could design a better human myself. Intelligent design is just 'god of the gaps', use these arguments with peril, you'll find the uses for your creator getting smaller and smaller. If humans are supposedly an aim of this creator, they wasted a lot of time getting to the end-point.

There are many things we do not know. Still does not support your claims, claiming agnosticism is safe, claiming understanding and knowledge is wishful-thinking.

If you can be bothered, watch the ramachandran clips from 'Beyond Belief' on youtube. He talks about many of the things you seem interested in. Rama is the guy who first studied temporal lobe epilepsy and 'religious' experiences. Here's a link...

Rama lectures

I particularly like the evidence regarding split-brain patients. He talks about one who will likely cause issues for your heavenly gate-keeper - one side of their brain believes in god, the other doesn't, seems they have a split-soul as well....

Or the mind has no existence outside of brain.

There's lots of good stuff from beyond belief, not all of it purely of materialist/atheist bent. They have the lecture videos on their website (beyondbelief2006).

As for the rest, I know I am fulfilled. I am happy with my life. I also have no fear of death, if i popped my clogs tomorrow - no issues, I know I have made the best of it. What is there to be afraid of? The only fear should be not making the most of what you have - spending my time worshipping a seemingly non-existent entity or reading a pretty inconsistent couple of books does not seem a good use of time or resources, especially when many who totally give their life over to god do not, unlike you, even achieve anything useful

When I talked about christians being forsaken, I'm talking about those that do believe, real christians who follow the religion well. You are saying that because they do not see demons and auras, they are not 'real' christians, they have failed to reach enlightenment, that you are 'special' Seems a bit of hubris really.

[edit on 3-12-2006 by melatonin]

There is a man that has been attending special "Holy Spirit" services in Atlanta, California, and Florida for over 3 decades seeking this Holy Spirit Enlightenment and finally he recieved it. This guy was hyper-critical of everyone before this and now simply remains in silence and just smiles. Some go their whole lives in the Christian faith and never recieve this because of many reasons, while others get a small dose. Again the secret is Loving God with all your being and at the end you get blessed with this state. Some replace Loving God, which what-ever their attention is at the time, while others have emotional and other barriers to overcome. I am never implying that I am more special or better than anyone because of the state that was given to me, but I am implying that it is a very narrow path and takes allot of work for God to bless some-one with enlightenment and it's worth it, more than anything else.

You Loving your kids(to the best degree) is a spiritual service that you are doing whether you acknowledge so or not. You see, God is pure Love so by doing what your doing, you are still taking part in the overall picture of this grand play.

Still you use your logic and reason to make a final judgement about the Bible, God, and Spiritual Enlightenment.....but the issue here remains in the fact that all three of these things are transcendent factors by which you cannot distinguish them using your logic and reason. It is through the Bible that you can slowly begin to unlock the faculty of transcendence, which actually does give you an advatange over the next man and yet it is this advantage that allows you to humble yourself as much as you can to keep this advantage going.

So whereas in traffic someone cuts another person off and that person opens their car window, shows the finger, and yells and angry remark. This reaction is destructive 100 fold because the first person gets angry (loss of self control) directs hatred in his whole being and at the other person, and that other person will most likely react in the same fashion. Whereas the spiritual man forgives automatically even before being cut off takes place and transcends the entire incident because of knowing that existence is eternal, as are we.

You should look into the debates of Ravi Zacharias as he goes up against the biggest names in athieism and agnosticism doing very well to counter all opposing arguments.

Again prayer studies are all biased one way or the other. To effectively get what you want by praying, the secret is a combination of positive thinking, praying, asking, and then knowing that it will be recieved. So if you even have a slight bit of doubt even for a second it is enough to extinguish the flames of faith and recieving what you ask for. Successful prayers are ones where there is no doubt what-so-ever and to find a single person who has no doubt at all is difficult at times, as there a very few strong spiritual persons.

Effectively what you have is a book that claims divine origin and promises you a spiritual advanced state of being if you follow it's precepts. Along with this you have Jesus existing, who is the main character of this manual. The scientific community is not at odds about his existence, but at odds as to the miracles he performed while he was here and not being able to find his body anywhere (which would refute any idea of him not ressurecting having power over death.) So with over 500+ people witnessing his ressurection and seeing the holes in his hands from the crucifixion, is it at all odd to you that this message spread through-out the world and is the dominant religious view? It's definately not odd to me because of the subjective (and at times objective) elements of following this Book. It gives results.

You can try to explain (with today's limited science) every single thing that goes on including anomolies in existence, but still you have no absolutes. When science finally agrees and finds their satisfactory proof that God exists, then the whole foundation of science becomes either null and void or shifts over to a new paradigm. And since you personally don't believe that will ever happen (even though you have to admit it is a viable possibility), you become stuck in whatever state and level science is in at any particular moment in time.

Now our differences, according to the Bible, are that you are considered natural man (operating from logic, reason, observation, and so forth) while I, and others in the same boat as me, are considered spiritual man (operating from everything you operate from, plus transcendence, 6th sense spiritual intuition, divine revelations, and other extra sensory perceptions, all of which allow the user to begin to percieve God) Now the paradox is that there are no words in any known language than can describe these wonderful faculties and since natural man out-numbers spirtual man in our existence, anything spirtual man says, is viewed as foolishness to the natrual man. Yet the Bible is the necessary tool to begin to unlock the spiritual man within.

You see the paradox? The are a few who know, see, hear, and percieve more than the rest and these few are labled as fools by the rest??? Not only fools, but arrogant, concieted, selective, or what-ever else you want to fill in the blank as I have been called all types of things on this board based on mere speculation. Almost every spiritual being that oozed uncondinitonal Love out of every pore was killed or seen as a fool. Yes I do operate from more and better faculties than mere logic and reason, and yet I would sacrifice myself in order for you to have this also. You see, another faculty is the abundant Love, compassion, and concern for mere strangers which I could have given a crap about before reaching this state.

Let me put in the best way that you and many others like yourself would understand. There is a "God Part" of the brain that lights up in certain circumstances. Well what the Bible does, is eventually by practicing it's timeless way of life and precepts, sooner or later God will bless you by unlocking(by his will and time) a new section of the brain that allows you to comprehend (using logic and reason) infinity, eternity, transcendence, and to realize-feel-know that you are soul living within a material body and that God is real. At this state, you become spiritual man and the old limited ways begin to die off ala ego death and spiritual realities.

Just wanted to post another quick example combining science and the fact of transcendent states that can percieve God. In Quantumm Mechanics, the principles and resulting configurations of everything involving this science is utterly counter to rationality of the classic sense. So in the case of God existing, he can certainly seem and be irrational to us all. My implication is that what the scientific community and most people for that matter think is rational is definately not the full story and not even the correct mode to fathom the full story. So classic rationality is actually irrational by definition, but a sort of transcendent irrationality is what is needed to percieve and know that God exists, i.e we're(most of us) all operating in the wrong modes and the select few that by God's grace recieve transcendence, are operating in the correct mode or the next mode in line to be the standard operating mode in everyone, ala all will know the truth about God. No one will be able to deny but will still have the free-will to reject this being !!!!

Originally posted by dominicus
Just wanted to post another quick example combining science and the fact of transcendent states that can percieve God. In Quantumm Mechanics, the principles and resulting configurations of everything involving this science is utterly counter to rationality of the classic sense. So in the case of God existing, he can certainly seem and be irrational to us all. My implication is that what the scientific community and most people for that matter think is rational is definately not the full story and not even the correct mode to fathom the full story. So classic rationality is actually irrational by definition, but a sort of transcendent irrationality is what is needed to percieve and know that God exists, i.e we're(most of us) all operating in the wrong modes and the select few that by God's grace recieve transcendence, are operating in the correct mode or the next mode in line to be the standard operating mode in everyone, ala all will know the truth about God. No one will be able to deny but will still have the free-will to reject this being !!!!

There are a couple of defining words in your post:
1) 'can perceive god' - that is a subjective phrase and therefore can not be used as a method of proof or truth
2)'My implication' is also subjective and therefore cannot be used.

What you have put across is your own opinion as a proof for a god and your own interpretations of a science to try and prove some notion of a gods divine enlightenment for the select few.


G

Shihulud,
Yes those defining words do indicate a "subjectiveness" to my last stated post, however that subjectiveness is something that is similarly viewed by a growing number of people. If you re-read my last post, it makes complete sense and is a view that has definite possibilities to it regardless of any subjectiveness.

Everything that everybody believes today, whether subjective or objective, has it's origin and is either truth or not. I'm all for a close and binding relationship between science and thiesm, but who's to say that the majority of the scientific world isn't corrupted by a biased and selective boundry, such that anyone who states/finds a theory that goes against the grain is shunned ala Tesla and various others.

So that statement, both subjective as well as shared by others, is a theory never-the-less and with all theoires we should seek out whether it holds up or not. In this case it would be enough to ask a few in the scientific community whether there is a community wide bias to make one part of this theory true. Ask them about the second part being a possibility and I think you'd be surprised by the answers you get!!!!!!

Either way, since science is evolving at an ever alrming rate, it is again but a matter of time before the existence of the spiritual(realms, souls, etc) is certified to be truth scientifically. My question to you is will your current views change then????

[edit on 9-12-2006 by dominicus]

Originally posted by dominicus
Everything that everybody believes today, whether subjective or objective, has it's origin and is either truth or not. I'm all for a close and binding relationship between science and thiesm, but who's to say that the majority of the scientific world isn't corrupted by a biased and selective boundry, such that anyone who states/finds a theory that goes against the grain is shunned ala Tesla and various others.

Lets take an example. For evolution the main person there would be Darwin, as the origin. I think we can safely say that Darwin was a real person. That's fact. Darwin is a fundalmental and core part of evolution. Let's go to the oposite end of the scale and take for example core and fundalmental people from The Bible. People like Adam & Eve, who we are taught by The Bible were the first two humans ever and everyone alive today is decended from them. Let's throw Moses in there as well. Afterall, he recieved the 10 commandments from God and scribed them in to stone. These people are some of the people at the origin of creation and The Bible. The problem with Adam & Eve and Moses, is that they are no way on par with Darwin. We know for fact, that Darwin lived. We do not know for fact that Moses was a real person.

That will always be a difference between religion and everything else. Religion takes many things on faith, and is content with that. Science may begin with faith, a leap of faith, an idea, a hypothesis, but it's not 'content' with keeping it that way. Before electricity was discovered, someone had to take a leap of faith and throw out such an idea, but they weren't content with just saying 'I think this, or I have faith that this idea is fact'. Religion on the other hand is content with having faith, rather than factual evidence.

Either way, since science is evolving at an ever alrming rate, it is again but a matter of time before the existence of the spiritual(realms, souls, etc) is certified to be truth scientifically.

That's matter of opinion, and your opinion. There's nothing to say the spiritual side will ever be scientifically proven. Mediums, souls, afterlife, ghosts are no closer to being scientifically proven than they were 100s of years ago.

My question to you is will your current views change then????

Science is all about changing ideas.

Actually there are numerous archaelogical finds that support the existence of a prominant prophet named Moses, you have over 500 different ancinet world-wide legends reffereing to a global flood, and you have the Ebla Tablets of northern Syria, which are older than Moses himself reffering to recorded historical events. If you don't like to support recorded historical events that are older than 2,000 years, then why support a theory that's 100, 50, or 5 years old????? Archaeologist's like Tom Hodgkins and many others are at the for-front of finding "key" evidence supporting the existence and dwellings of Moses. In fact, History channel had a huge 2 hour special on all the newest factual findings supporting the exodus.

Again, I'm al for theology co-existing with science. Since there is such a thing as spiritual evolution in the spiritual person, then why not physical evolution to mirror that? I'm all for it. However, as I stated to Melatonin, doesn't the complexity and intelligence of evolution itself point to something intelligent that put evolution in place???? It sure does to me and most people I make that statement to.

IF science isn't any closer to verifying the existence of the spiritual today, than it was 100 years ago, then tell me why Nasa has stated that they've uncovered more scientifically in the last 10 years, than they have in the last 150 years??? In this statement was was made in 99'. In 2005 they came out and said they've found more in the last 4 years, than ever in history!!!! Since science is evolving, it will eventually sooner than later uncover the existence of the spiritual. Again, then will change your views? I bet you will !!!!!

With the Bible, we have all these facts about the events that are recorded historically by different view points, archaelogical finds, and a period (right after Jesus ressurected) where we have the most theological and spiritual literature come out, than any other point in history. What else would motivate hundreds and thousands of authors to write like fanatics, if not for a true event? Why don't you show me another manipulated historical event that is actually a lie and followed by so many people.

Do you really dispute arhaelogical and recorded historical evidence that supports the Bible???? If so, then you are disputing members of the scientific community, and therfore you yourself will be subject to dispute everything the scientific community has ever said!!!

YES, you said it correctly. "Science is all about changing ideas" !!!!!!!!! So while the majority brush off the spiritual within this community, it is a matter of time before some-one credable comes with proof against the grain and will be successful if he/she can oversome the bias boundries that are in place. Look up the facts about Tesla who was also brushed off by the scientific community, but which now NASA and Russian scientists have fascinating finds from his research, ahead of his time!!!!!

The faith of the Bible has to do with first comming to the conclusion that there is supporting evidence that the book-itself has much truth in it. I guess the part that may trouble you is upon comming to the conclusion that many parts of this book are truth and are supported, then the faith jump involves believing that the rest is also true, where there is no scientific evidence.

But at the end you put your faith in science, which is all subject to change tommorow. There are no anchored absolutes and one new theory can nullify and make void every scieintific foundation!!!!!! Unstable and no absolutes, plus you are relying on others' who are considered proffessionals!!!!!

With the Bible, it is yourself that experiences spiritual evolution, and with enough spiritual work, you break through the viels and enter place of transcendence and knowing. It is a state that you recieve from the creator himself and you know when this happens. At that time, you no longer operate on faith, but you operate on "knowing." Faith is only for a little while when you are a spiritual Baby. But your logic, reason, and reliance on science won't allow you to comprehend transcendecne and timelessness.

Still, you must know that you are a significant peace of existence and that you are priceless. Eveything is connected and everyting is important. But, wouldn't you want to see and experieince this with your own eyes????? Take off the viel my friend.

dominicus

cite evidence to support your claims on moses please

also, i'd like to say something about history channel specials...
do
not
trust
them

look into what they are researching by looking for published scholarly works on the subject

Originally posted by dominicus
Again, I'm al for theology co-existing with science. Since there is such a thing as spiritual evolution in the spiritual person, then why not physical evolution to mirror that? I'm all for it. However, as I stated to Melatonin, doesn't the complexity and intelligence of evolution itself point to something intelligent that put evolution in place???? It sure does to me and most people I make that statement to.

And I'm sure most of them have little understanding, like you, of the theory of evolution.

IF science isn't any closer to verifying the existence of the spiritual today, than it was 100 years ago, then tell me why Nasa has stated that they've uncovered more scientifically in the last 10 years, than they have in the last 150 years??? In this statement was was made in 99'. In 2005 they came out and said they've found more in the last 4 years, than ever in history!!!! Since science is evolving, it will eventually sooner than later uncover the existence of the spiritual. Again, then will change your views? I bet you will !!!!!

If the evidence becomes available, then any decent scientist will assess it on its merits. At this point, there is no reliable positive evidence to assess, only anecdotes and negative evidence.

What I am sure of is that no matter how much evidence is shown to discredit the supernatural, you will not change your views.

YES, you said it correctly. "Science is all about changing ideas" !!!!!!!!! So while the majority brush off the spiritual within this community, it is a matter of time before some-one credable comes with proof against the grain and will be successful if he/she can oversome the bias boundries that are in place. Look up the facts about Tesla who was also brushed off by the scientific community, but which now NASA and Russian scientists have fascinating finds from his research, ahead of his time!!!!!

Tesla was not brushed off at all. That is a fantasy. He was consistently mentioned as worthy of the nobel prize during his lifetime and has an SI unit named after him.

Funny you should use him as an example of the issues of scientists changing ideas...Tesla talking about Einstein's theory of relativity...

...[a] magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king...., its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists....

ToR has been continuously supported by the evidence and is a foundation of physics and cosmology. Like Einstein's dismissal of Quantum theory, all scientists are of their time. As Kuhn believed, when they die, the younger scientists come to the fore, the new wave of ideas following with them.

But at the end you put your faith in science, which is all subject to change tommorow. There are no anchored absolutes and one new theory can nullify and make void every scieintific foundation!!!!!! Unstable and no absolutes, plus you are relying on others' who are considered proffessionals!!!!!

Not unstable at all. Just intelligently tentative. I doubt a new theory can make void 'every scientific foundation'. The theory of relativity didn't, it just added to Newton's laws. That is the norm, just 'standing on the shoulders of giants' adding, slowly but surely, to current understanding. Whilst theology places itself in realms of ignorance and stumbling at the coat-tails of science moulding and claiming allegory for well-worn obsolete ideas.

Most scientists are more professional than you and theologists will ever be, working to solve real-world problems and advance knowledge rather than dreaming and writing polemics about the spiritual and seeing demons. I'm sure you've barely spent more than a few minutes in the company of real scientists (and I don't mean medical doctors).

Science has done more for humanity in a few hundred years than theology has done in a few thousand

But your logic, reason, and reliance on science won't allow you to comprehend transcendecne and timelessness.

But you'll rely on scientists, those 'considered proffessionals [sic]' to eventually validate your abnormal perceptions of the world. I know you have to grasp why your perceptions are unusual, it is normal to do so, but I'm sure there are simpler interpretations than you are so special and spiritually endowed to be one of the 'special ones'.

[edit on 10-12-2006 by melatonin]

Originally posted by dominicus
Actually there are numerous archaelogical finds that support the existence of a prominant prophet named Moses

Arcaelogical? Really? Did they find his footprints? His clothes? Exactly what arcaelogical proof is there that Moses (The person who recieved the 10 commandments from God actually existed).

There's no mention of a mass migration of escaped slaves from Egypt. This was supposed to be Moses' most historic moment. Yet, the Egyptians don't even mention such an event.

you have over 500 different ancinet world-wide legends reffereing to a global flood

500 accounts of a global flood? 500 accounts of a global flood that supposedly wiped out all life apart from that of which was on the ark? How can that therefore be a global flood? And how did all these other people manage to survive?

History channel had a huge 2 hour special on all the newest factual findings supporting the exodus.

That's like using the Jungle Book as factual evidence 'for' talking animals.

IF science isn't any closer to verifying the existence of the spiritual today, than it was 100 years ago, then tell me why Nasa has stated that they've uncovered more scientifically in the last 10 years, than they have in the last 150 years??? In this statement was was made in 99'. In 2005 they came out and said they've found more in the last 4 years, than ever in history!!!! Since science is evolving, it will eventually sooner than later uncover the existence of the spiritual. Again, then will change your views? I bet you will !!!!!

Just because there are advances in areas of science such as space exploration, that in no way means that spiritual things will soon be proven by science. And just because science says ghosts are real, that doesn't automatically make someone change their mind. That would be as ignorant as picking up The Bible and believing it.

YES, you said it correctly. "Science is all about changing ideas" !!!!!!!!! So while the majority brush off the spiritual within this community, it is a matter of time before some-one credable comes with proof against the grain and will be successful if he/she can oversome the bias boundries that are in place. Look up the facts about Tesla who was also brushed off by the scientific community, but which now NASA and Russian scientists have fascinating finds from his research, ahead of his time!!!!!

Again there is nothing scientific or even logical that suggests there are such things as ghosts. Scientology use some device that picks up certain electronic signals, and this they claim are the spirits/souls of dead aliens lingering around. The problem with this is that these electrical signals are everywhere because of electric pillons outside your home etc. This is the type of catastrophe when you try and use science/technology to prove spiritual things.

Originally posted by dominicus

So that statement, both subjective as well as shared by others, is a theory never-the-less and with all theoires we should seek out whether it holds up or not. In this case it would be enough to ask a few in the scientific community whether there is a community wide bias to make one part of this theory true. Ask them about the second part being a possibility and I think you'd be surprised by the answers you get!!!!!!

Either way, since science is evolving at an ever alrming rate, it is again but a matter of time before the existence of the spiritual(realms, souls, etc) is certified to be truth scientifically. My question to you is will your current views change then????

[edit on 9-12-2006 by dominicus]

First of all, granted that subjective views should be considered but you have made the subjective error in totally assuming that a deity exists therefore negating any considerations for the non existance of the deity.

My views will change when I have sufficient proofs/evidence to change my views and not until then. Also you arguments are biased - i.e. so if the existance of the spiritual/divine is scientifically proven then I change my views???? but if the non-existance is proven would you change yours?? OH I forgot you cant disprove god so it seems that it is ONLY us that have to change and you get to keep believing what you like. Thats not very fair is it?????


G

shihulud :My views will change when I have sufficient proofs/evidence to change my views and not until then.

Stick to your gun's with this one, but remember in order to recieve such proof, you must whole heartedly ask for it... God will not kick down the door to your heart, you must be willing to earnestly seek Him. He has promissed that He will reveal Himself to those who seek Him with their whole heart. If you are someday able to do this you will be givin the "sufficient proofs" you require, I can't wait to celebrate that day.

Dominicus, please join me in a petition for this individual this day,
LORD we ask that upon this individual's request, Your Holy Spirit reveals to him the "sufficient proofs" he requires as evidence to change his views, and that You grant him sufficient strength and courage to manifest in his sprirt the realization of Your Presence, if this be in Your will LORD, we ask it by your Promise, therefore make it so, and Thank You God...

shihulud, I hope you are able to find it within yourself to reach the place whereby you can truely with your whole being call out to Him, because as a former athiest, I can tell you only from my own experience, He can and will answer you.
All the best, peace out!!!

holidaystar1, why does anyone need to accept the existence of god before they can prove it?

i believe the phrase that most applies here is that it is just like riding backwards on an ass

you have to accept that you are in a place before you have confirmation of it

Originally posted by holidaystar1

shihulud :My views will change when I have sufficient proofs/evidence to change my views and not until then.

shihulud, I hope you are able to find it within yourself to reach the place whereby you can truely with your whole being call out to Him, because as a former athiest, I can tell you only from my own experience, He can and will answer you.
All the best, peace out!!!

I think that would be a very hard thing for me to do as I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANY DEITY, and no amount of wanting or wishing on both our parts would make me believe otherwise. Evidence (not the subjective bias opinions usually given as proof) is required for my beliefs to change, not will power.

So what flavour of religionite are you? Are you another of these unorthodox christians with their own view of jesus and jehovah?? or do you follow some set pathway??


G

Originally posted by shihulud

Originally posted by holidaystar1

shihulud :My views will change when I have sufficient proofs/evidence to change my views and not until then.

shihulud, I hope you are able to find it within yourself to reach the place whereby you can truely with your whole being call out to Him, because as a former athiest, I can tell you only from my own experience, He can and will answer you.
All the best, peace out!!!

I think that would be a very hard thing for me to do as I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANY DEITY, and no amount of wanting or wishing on both our parts would make me believe otherwise. Evidence (not the subjective bias opinions usually given as proof) is required for my beliefs to change, not will power.

So what flavour of religionite are you? Are you another of these unorthodox christians with their own view of jesus and jehovah?? or do you follow some set pathway??


G

I am not a "religionite" but I love the term. My own personal experience has turned me around on the "donkey" as madness has put it. There is no way in the natural sense to experience the supernatural if you so choose not to except it. But because you don't except a thing does not make it unreal. I too once held the same none belief, and nothing I can share with you will turn you around, except for your own will.
If by unorthodox Christian you mean one who tries to study and follow the teachings of Christ then I guess I would fall into that class. I don't belong to any particular church, but I do feel in a sense that I belong to the Body of Christ. All the evidence I could ever need, I recieved. But can I give you my experience, no, because all I have to share with you are words. If I tell you fire will burn you if you put your hand in it, and you had never tried to touch it before, you would have to take my word for it, or put your hand in it to see for yourself. What it boils down to is choice. You would probably choose to call my experiences delusion, because of your current perspective, which by the way, I held too for almost 44 years. Many along the way tried to convince me that God was real and I could and would debate with the best of them for hours on end. As a matter of fact, if you told me a few years back that I would be on the other end of this debate I would have surely told you to make sure that I was on my medication. So how did I end up here? I know how you would answer that question, and for me it makes no difference. I now know something I didn't before, I must be evolving, does that make me an evolutionist?
I surely don't have a "set pathway" as you put it, carved in stone, or a road map I can give anyone to get where I am, but I know I am here, and so is I AM...
For what its worth...

Question,

If god can't kick down the door to our hearts and convince us, then should we go out and try and find stuff in nature that will point to god, things happening in our lives even? Without any real tangable proof, isn't that same person really just trying to convince themselves of their own fantasies? Is it truley a miracle that the doctor called and said that your aids test results we're "not Positive" because you prayed all week that god would make the results that way. Is that sort of evidence the proof that people are hinging their lives on? Sounds more like they are trying interpret everything around them to fit into their preconcieved ideas. Again, to just try and convince themselves of their fantasie's reality.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Question,

If god can't kick down the door to our hearts and convince us, then should we go out and try and find stuff in nature that will point to god, things happening in our lives even? Without any real tangable proof, isn't that same person really just trying to convince themselves of their own fantasies? Is it truley a miracle that the doctor called and said that your aids test results we're "not Positive" because you prayed all week that god would make the results that way. Is that sort of evidence the proof that people are hinging their lives on? Sounds more like they are trying interpret everything around them to fit into their preconcieved ideas. Again, to just try and convince themselves of their fantasie's reality.

One thing leads to another, but each "thing" requires a choice and recognition. If I were trying to teach you calculus and did not take you step by step through the basics and then just gave you the final exam, you would be so over welmed that your head would spin. Before I could teach you anything in that field you would have to make a conscious choice to want to study and learn the basics first, and as you progressed and tested what you learned we could move on to the final exam and you would handle it quite easily, if you were cognoscente along every step of the process. It is similiar with an awareness of God. It is your choice to consider it a fantasy, as I once did also... But consider this for a moment, if God is indeed a reality, and He decided to reveal Himself to you in one abrupt moment, it would be like taking that calc exam without any prior study, you would be so overwelmed you would first probably vomit, break out in a cold sweat, and then walk away in frustration. Only if it was God revealing Himself to you, you would now know He exist. The analogy of Neo waking up from the matrix comes to mind, his new perspective of what is real causes his conscious mind a little trouble at first. But with time he becomes accustomed to his new reality and gets on with his destiny.
It is totally up to you to decide wether or not you believe God is reality or fantasy, and I would guess that if you were already 100% certain about that choice and you believed the latter, that it would be a total waste of time debating with a bunch of deluded fantasian's, yet you are here questioning them. Why? If God is just a fantasy what leads you to discuss such things? I believe it is the Spirit moving on you as well, that is my choice. The process all along the way is governed by choice. If you choose not to believe that, so be it. But if God requires you to make a choice to seek Him, before He can reveal Himself to you and you so choose not to, so be it also. My suggestion to any and all who might read this, is to consciously consider and make a choice to know God. I would challenge and encourage any one who hasn't to try it. And if by some miracle He begins to show you, Thank Him for the revelation and take the next step...
peace out.....

Please use paragraphs.. My eyes are hurting

*edit*

ah it's not so bad now I'm logged in..

I can't even remember what the original discussion was about, wasn't it about someone being enlightened or something?

If God's a fantasy then when we're dead, we're dead, no two ways about it. But if it turns out I'm wrong, then I'm going to hell, and I've heard it's quite warm there. *grabs the sunblock*

[edit on 14-12-2006 by shaunybaby]