For all the Athiests.........

Blackgaurd,
Yeah I hear on that 1 and I'll play along with that for a second. In the hypothetical event that he was made up, it would still be a fact to me that I along with countless others have reached amazing and indescrible states of enlightenment by following the teachings of Christ, which is available to all.

Now on the other hand, I could go on for multitudes of pages as to the proof that he existed, most of which is found in earlier posts in this thread. I know there are countless conspiracy theories the presume that Christ did not exist all over the internet and published in books. I've read many of them and did reseach myself before ever jumping into the whole faith in Christ thing. They just don't add-up to me in the way that there is still way more proof and argumentation for the existence than against the existence of Christ.

The key factor here is not to get caught up on some idea or conspiracy that has been thought up or even genuinely hinted it because of some historical or archeaological find. There is no solid proof that Christ never existed and this thought could be keeping you, or anyone for that matter, from reaching Enlightenment and knowing God.

I could say that at the end of the day it comes down what are you putting your chips on? God or no God? God or science/man/physics? I'll tell you this, that back when I didn't know if God existed or not, I would have at that time in my life still put my chips on God, because the chances and odds I would say are in Gods favor being that no one has the biggest "key" questions unlocked the way the Bible puts it down. Besides, the worst part for agnostics and athiests is the death bed scene when the questions begin to arise and fear encroaches due to not knowing what lies beyond the veil and then the shock of comming to terms with the fact that God exists.

There is a state where there is no longer fear of death and as a matter a fact, in this state death is embraced and something looked forward to.

Christ didn't exist in the flesh on the earth before 2006 years ago (give or take a couple years), but that didn't change the the fact that God was still around and intervening in Man's affairs.

It's all so beautiful, the good, the bad, the ugly, the beautiful, hard times, easy times, we get to go through everything in the spectrum while on this planet and we owe all of our existences to God. Why don't you give God a shot? What's the worst that can happen????

[edit on 1-11-2006 by dominicus]

Hey, if I was forced to make a call I'd say there is a God, though not an exclusively Christian one. One that has 6 billion faces so everyone can know him/her/it. So I just can't say I know for sure. I believe in many spiritual things, like angels, ghosts, an afterlife, prayer, and miracles. I am firm on that. But God? Doesn't matter to me one way or the other, and besides, if God is hiding, I won't find him.
Love

Originally posted by dominicus
Shiluhud,
So Because I had enlightening experiences simply solidified that what I put my all being into was truth. If I followed the Bible and nothing ever happened as profound as what I and countless others have experienced, then I would have dismissed it because I have always been looking and searching for God in one way or another. Enlightenment of different calibers is one of the numerous rewards, or windows, that God blesses us with if we abide by the spiritual precepts of the Bible. For me personally, my belief that this is the way has to do with all the profound statistics of predictions made in the OT that were manifest by Christ in the NT. The New Testament has authority over the Old Testament in anumber of ways, and yet there are still lessons and morals to be learned from the Old Testament, such as the Mysticism contained in the Song of Songs and how it describes the Ascent of The Sould to God and Descent of God to the Soul all through having the Wisdom of the Old Testament. So either Book will lead a person into Enlightenment, but still the NT has authority and I argue will get some-one there much faster, not to mention it is the "Key" of both testaments because of the words and existence of Christ.

Just because something makes sense to you doesnt make it the truth. I dont deny that experience can have a powerful effect on the person but thats all it is , an experience - there is no inherent truth in experience

There may be a pantheon of Gods that are under neath the one and only Master God, but it is this Master God that is above all and every other God that I ride with. At the end of the day, does it matter if there are other Gods? If Christ taught to Love and pray to and acknowledge the one that is above all others and above everything that exists, isn't he referencing the God at the top of a so called pantheon????

How do you know that jehovah (the mountain god) is the top dog? Even in the bible a pantheon IS mentioned and jehovah states that he is jealous because people worship other gods before him - this to me would seem to make jehovah more of a satan character, and adversary to the other gods. Maybe the early israelites worshipped other gods but it seemed that the other gods weren't listening and so they started on jehovah. Another thing is what hapened to jehovahs concubine Asherah????????

Is God a manifestation of an Enlightened mind? No, because there have been several occasions where we have had historically documented Divine Intervention.

This should be fun - Pray enlighten us with historical documents!!!!

Another point is that if Christ told us about Loving that Father above all that is in heaven, if that father was to just be a manifestation of our thoughts, then God would not trully exist, besides being a manifestation of a collective of thoughts, i.e. Christ would be a liar in this respect. The last point would be that if God is a manifestation of our thoughts, then how did existence and everything else get created? If there was a time when we did not exist, then it would have been impossible for God to be a manifestation of our thoughts let alone the manifestation of enlightened individuals.

Your christ might well be a liar, cheat and a fraud. Your logic is flawed when you ask 'if god didn't exist then where did everything come from' that is based on the assumption that a god made everything. What about M theory or the big bang or superstrings. Its not just god or nothing is it?


G

The whole Asherah ordeal is still argued among Biblical scholars. I personally do not have an opinion on this matter being that in my view on it will not be resolved until a later date (physical death or second comming) It is a minor argument.

Historically documented divine intervention would include the fire destruction of sodom and gemorrah, which has archeaological support, various recordings in stone of what happened during the exodus (10 plagues I think it was.) I can go on and on but my favorite to bring up is modern day medical miracles, were the Christian based on Faith was able to defeat, against all odds, diseases which left them with months, weeks, days to live....only to completely disappear after prayer was involved. These are documented and there are books published about this subject. The medical community is always stunned and shocked and never have a decent explanation for these events and some doctors even become believers through these events.

There may be no inherent truth in experience, but the experience you have is always true no matter what it is. However, examine the precursors that led to and surround the experience, then you can come to a set of conclusions such as:

1. For all people if they work out at the gym and stick to it, they will experience muscle growth.
or
2. I see that people who work out at the gym get muscles and I know why the muscles form, but I have not yet tried this myself so:

a. Speculate that the Gym does not really work
b. Specualte that there might be something to it
c. or fill in what-ever speculation you want into the picture.

UNTIL you try it, it's all specualtion. If the majority of people follow the Word of God in Faith and Love and end up reaching enlightenment from it, then we can say that it is true to a degree that if people follow that "cause," they will get that "effect" Of course the desired effect is subjective so in order to show you the truth, I would have to help you get "there" or through prayer show you that I, as God's vessel, can heal you of anything through my faith.

Of course God was jealous and angered(rightously) in the OT, since people started worshipping false idols. We are made in God's image so we share all the same emotions that God shares to a degree, including jealousy at times. God can choose which ever emotions he wants to because of whats going on, besides if you Love your people so much and they are not paying any attention to you, jealousy is one of many side effects.

All the holes that you can think of in the Bible and what Christ said are covered 20-30 times over. CAn you back up that Christ lied, cheated, and commited fraud? Christian theology can back up the divinity of Christ hundreds time more than anyone can backup that he lied.

Towards the end of your last post you stated that my logic is flawed because of me trying to get to the point of this question. What caused M-theory or the Big Bang? In either of the two, they both have had to originate from something else as you cannot get something out of nothing. That's were God comes in. Science will take a while to catch up to God. All of those theories are incmplete because they don't describe how any of these things originited. Faith in theories.

Again I operate on Logic, rational, and transcendence(which has to be experienced and known to be understood)

Historically documented divine intervention would include the fire destruction of sodom and gemorrah, which has archeaological support, various recordings in stone of what happened during the exodus (10 plagues I think it was.)

Total ignorance. As long as you are totally ignorant you can dance around saying you know everything you are willing to know.

UNTIL you try it, it's all specualtion.

Until you test your faith it's just faith and not proof. You demand of other what you refuse to do yourself. Put your god to the test.

I was enlightened in Christ once as Blaise Pascal wrote exactly, but I got over it. It was a mental virus, an experience not unlike drug hallucination in every way. Since then I've committed to help people free themselves from the addiction, the self-brainwashing, and the mental virus meme.

Of course God was jealous and angered(rightously) in the OT,...

Of course, this makes perfect sense to you because you are ignorant of the glaring contradiction involved in having an omnipotent entity get even slightly angry.

Christian theology can back up the divinity of Christ hundreds time...

Based purely on scripture and no supporting sources. If you talk about Sherlock Holmes, only the work of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle may be treated as canon. BECAUSE IT IS FICTION. There is no external evidence of Sherlock because he never existed. Likewise for Christ.

Science will take a while to catch up to God.

It is God that is on the run from Science. Christians carry Him beacause He's Lame.

All of those theories are incmplete because they don't describe how any of these things originited.

Neither does god. Adding god before the Big Bang just adds another layer of unexplanation. God is not explanation. It is a commandment to stop looking for an explanation. God is a commandment to stop science.

Funny if you are on the run to tell those chasing you to stop?

Faith in theories.

Justified, unlike yours.

Again I operate on Logic, rational, and ...

BULL. Nothing you said is logical at all. Take a basic course in philosophy. And focus on the section of fallacies.

Columbus

Originally posted by dominicus
The whole Asherah ordeal is still argued among Biblical scholars. I personally do not have an opinion on this matter being that in my view on it will not be resolved until a later date (physical death or second comming) It is a minor argument.

A minor argument??? For one thing it could disprove the notion of monotheism as there would be more than one supernatural being. Also these false gods in the bible - whats false about them? Are they non-existant or just not the top god?

Historically documented divine intervention would include the fire destruction of sodom and gemorrah, which has archeaological support, various recordings in stone of what happened during the exodus (10 plagues I think it was.) I can go on and on but my favorite to bring up is modern day medical miracles, were the Christian based on Faith was able to defeat, against all odds, diseases which left them with months, weeks, days to live....only to completely disappear after prayer was involved. These are documented and there are books published about this subject. The medical community is always stunned and shocked and never have a decent explanation for these events and some doctors even become believers through these events.

Soddom and Gomorah are disputed by archeologists as they havent been found, another possibility is that they might have been destroyed by natural means.
The 10 plagues also could have natural explanations and there is not a lot of evidence to suggest that these events actually happened.
Medical 'miracles' are still not a basis for the existence of a deity, there might be alternative explanations

Of course God was jealous and angered(rightously) in the OT, since people started worshipping false idols. We are made in God's image so we share all the same emotions that God shares to a degree, including jealousy at times. God can choose which ever emotions he wants to because of whats going on, besides if you Love your people so much and they are not paying any attention to you, jealousy is one of many side effects.

Why would a omni(whatever) god be jealous or angry if 1 - he know everything, 2- he has the power to stop it and 3- he is all benevolent?

All the holes that you can think of in the Bible and what Christ said are covered 20-30 times over. CAn you back up that Christ lied, cheated, and commited fraud? Christian theology can back up the divinity of Christ hundreds time more than anyone can backup that he lied.

Cant back it up as I wasnt there, doesnt mean that I'm wrong as all you have is the biblical account which is biased and therfore cannot be used as evidence.

Towards the end of your last post you stated that my logic is flawed because of me trying to get to the point of this question. What caused M-theory or the Big Bang? In either of the two, they both have had to originate from something else as you cannot get something out of nothing. That's were God comes in. Science will take a while to catch up to God. All of those theories are incmplete because they don't describe how any of these things originited. Faith in theories.

Again I operate on Logic, rational, and transcendence(which has to be experienced and known to be understood)

A slight flaw in your logic as your god must have originated somewhere as well to state that god is infinite is illogical.
However I never said that before the 'beginning' there was nothing, nor do I believe it. There could have been some type of energy before the creation of matter.

G

Originally posted by shihulud Also these false gods in the bible - whats false about them? Are they non-existant or just not the top god?

Historically documented divine intervention would include the fire destruction of sodom and gemorrah, which has archeaological support, various recordings in stone of what happened during the exodus (10 plagues I think it was.) I can go on and on but my favorite to bring up is modern day medical miracles, were the Christian based on Faith was able to defeat, against all odds, diseases which left them with months, weeks, days to live....only to completely disappear after prayer was involved. These are documented and there are books published about this subject. The medical community is always stunned and shocked and never have a decent explanation for these events and some doctors even become believers through these events.

Soddom and Gomorah are disputed by archeologists as they havent been found, another possibility is that they might have been destroyed by natural means.
The 10 plagues also could have natural explanations and there is not a lot of evidence to suggest that these events actually happened.
Medical 'miracles' are still not a basis for the existence of a deity, there might be alternative explanations

Of course God was jealous and angered(rightously) in the OT, since people started worshipping false idols. We are made in God's image so we share all the same emotions that God shares to a degree, including jealousy at times. God can choose which ever emotions he wants to because of whats going on, besides if you Love your people so much and they are not paying any attention to you, jealousy is one of many side effects.

Why would a omni(whatever) god be jealous or angry if 1 - he know everything, 2- he has the power to stop it and 3- he is all benevolent?

All the holes that you can think of in the Bible and what Christ said are covered 20-30 times over. CAn you back up that Christ lied, cheated, and commited fraud? Christian theology can back up the divinity of Christ hundreds time more than anyone can backup that he lied.

Cant back it up as I wasnt there, doesnt mean that I'm wrong as all you have is the biblical account which is biased and therfore cannot be used as evidence.

Towards the end of your last post you stated that my logic is flawed because of me trying to get to the point of this question. What caused M-theory or the Big Bang? In either of the two, they both have had to originate from something else as you cannot get something out of nothing. That's were God comes in. Science will take a while to catch up to God. All of those theories are incmplete because they don't describe how any of these things originited. Faith in theories.

Again I operate on Logic, rational, and transcendence(which has to be experienced and known to be understood)

A slight flaw in your logic as your god must have originated somewhere as well to state that god is infinite is illogical.
However I never said that before the 'beginning' there was nothing, nor do I believe it. There could have been some type of energy before the creation of matter.

G

False gods mentioned in the bible are likely actually referring to actual deities. I base this on the ten commandments. The 2nd commandment refers to idol worship, and since the first one says don't have any other gods.... then if the gods refered to are not gods, they would be just idols, so the two commandments mean basically the same thing. It separates idols and other gods into separate commandments, which to me shows they mean to say there are other gods. Or why be redundant? It could have been the nine commandments.
Prayers by all faiths have been shown to help, not just Christian prayers.
Sodom and Gommorah are still undiscovered, though many biblical characters, places and events do have outside evidence supporting them, such as the story about Egypt and Joseph and his colorful coat, and the name Moses is a common part of many royal Egyptian names like Ra-Moses and Tut-Moses. But I have seen scientific studies that refute the possibility that any large number of people left Egypt in Moses' day and wandered the wilderness for 40 years. These researchers said that there would still be evidence to find if such a thing had occured, yet they found absolutely none.
And I agree that miracles do not prove there is a God. I totally believe in miracles, but have seen no proof there is a god.
As for God being jealous... well, I can accept angry, as long as it is expressed in a healthy manner, but jealousy? I see that as being supportive of the theory that this so-called god is actually the devil, who is fooling everyone. The bible does state that the devil would do this. Why would god be jealous? Is he insecure? If you love someone and they ignore you, and you are jealous, then I say you don't really love them. Love is unconditional, a gift, it asks nothing and expects nothing.
And regarding Jesus and the point about proving anything about him.... if you want to accept the bible as fact, then that is proof for you. For me, the lack of any other proof, and the fact that even the biblic accounts date from after his alleged lifetime, suggests that he may not have existed at all. Maybe he did, but to say you can prove anything about him, his disciples, family, or lifetime events, requires some proof. And no one has shown me one bit of proof from his day. It is all after the fact, or hearsay, in legal terms.

That's the the problem of not understanding and experiencing transcendence. God does not have to be created. That's one of the distinguishing factors between God and everything else. God has always existed, called the uncreated God.

That's the probelm with human logic/rational. We all think that everything has to have a beginning point or origin. In the spiritual realm, there is no such thing as time. It's only one moment in which you can forward or rewind the illusuory existence of the physical realms. We have scientists stopping/trapping light beams and the beginnings of bending time and space. We're talking science that defies logic/rational, so God having always existed is a comprehensible point within these circumstances.

........
The Jealous God thing...... well when we think of jealousy it always has to do with something that some-one has that we don't have, be it material, physical, or emotional. We want something that is not ours and does not belong to us.

Well in the context of God being jealous, it all had to do with people worshipping false idols. I'll even go as far as to say that, be it idols that don't exist or idols(false God's that do exist but are lower than the one supreme God)

Either way, in this context God is justifiably jealous because the worship and Love of God belongs to him. You have all these people misdirecting something so sacred and special. It is a justifiable jealousy and until we can see God's perspecitve of it, it won't make sense in the way that we would like.

........
The problem of every theory of origin, M-Theory, Bing Bang, String, and so forth, is the question of what caused that to take place???? Scientific theorists always disregard this because it can't be answered in the way that they would like it. Before everything you can think of, something had to exist prior to that, and that's where God comes into the picture.

Originally posted by dominicus
That's the the problem of not understanding and experiencing transcendence. God does not have to be created. That's one of the distinguishing factors between God and everything else. God has always existed, called the uncreated God.

Explain transcendence? Who told you that god need not be created, when you argue that all complex things need a creator - explain what god did before creation, where god was etc?

That's the probelm with human logic/rational. We all think that everything has to have a beginning point or origin. In the spiritual realm, there is no such thing as time. It's only one moment in which you can forward or rewind the illusuory existence of the physical realms. We have scientists stopping/trapping light beams and the beginnings of bending time and space. We're talking science that defies logic/rational, so God having always existed is a comprehensible point within these circumstances.

The science does NOT defy rational or logic, maybe you dont understand it. The problem with Human logic/rational is we all are different and therefore have different views and opinions on the same subject. Where is this spiritual realm and how do you know it exists?

Well in the context of God being jealous, it all had to do with people worshipping false idols. I'll even go as far as to say that, be it idols that don't exist or idols(false God's that do exist but are lower than the one supreme God)

So monotheism does not exist? AND again why would a benevolent god be jealous when he is supposed to have total love for us and has the power to make these false idols disappear or not exist in the first place?

Either way, in this context God is justifiably jealous because the worship and Love of God belongs to him. You have all these people misdirecting something so sacred and special. It is a justifiable jealousy and until we can see God's perspecitve of it, it won't make sense in the way that we would like.

Not justifiable at all unless your god does not have the powers attributed to him. So if it doesn't make sense in the way we would like how do you know that god is justifaibly jealous because the 'worship and love of god belongs to him'? You pertain to know how god thinks????

The problem of every theory of origin, M-Theory, Bing Bang, String, and so forth, is the question of what caused that to take place???? Scientific theorists always disregard this because it can't be answered in the way that they would like it. Before everything you can think of, something had to exist prior to that, and that's where God comes into the picture.

SO god is just the source of energy that the universe is created from?


G

interesting word.

"Like a thief in the night"

and what happens AT a HIEST?

someone usually gets robbed

transcendence is a state of being that is achieved through spiritual work, of which I can only ascribe to following, believing, and having Faith in Christ if the Bible. Is it a possibility in other spiritual paths? Yes it is according to other authors from other paths writing on this matter. However transcendence in the other paths is as far as you go, whereas in Christianity, you can climb to an actual ascension process type of deal.

transcendence is a state of being where you can operate in a place that is beyond logic/rational. It is a mental, spiritual, physical state of being that is impossible to describe accurately using any worldly language. It is knowing and experiencing eternity at all times, glimpses of inifinty, knowing 100% the illusion that is time. Knowing that our body is simply a temporary shell and so forth. With transcendence, what seem to be paradoxes of God, physics, or anything else to everyone else.....for the one who has transcendence understands the absolute beauty, elegence, and comprehension of a paradox which all make complete and perfect sense. It is also the ability to see and understand your arguments/actions/reactions from some-one else's shoes depending on how much you know that person. It is an advanced operating state of being that is so much better and wider of a spectrum, and yet still not defying to, regular logic/rational.

It is an absolute requirement to have this faculty of transcendence to even begin to understand and make sense of how God never had to be created. Regular logic/rational won't cut it, because we are so used to the thoughts and restrictions at the level we are operating at. If some-one jumps up to this level, it is impossible again to try to communicate this state of being and other's think you are lying, crazy, or not feeling to good this morning. So you learn for the most part to keep this for the most part between you and God.

The spiritual realm is all around us and inside of us. It is simply that 99.9% of people aren't tuned in. It's like only seeing channel 2 on your tv your whole life, then God graces you with the ability to swtch a few channels and see these spiritual realities. If you knew what was going on inside your own living room/bedroom, you'd be sleeping with all the lights on and be forced to use sleeping pills just to conquer the initial shock of it all.

How do I know that I did not make any of this up as far as being able to see these realities? First off it all happened as a result of putting my faith in Christ and taking the most important commandment (Love God with all your heart, mind, body, and soul) to the maximum limit to a state of being where the only thing I cared, longed, and hoped for was this Love of God. That's when I was thrusted into these realities, as a result of my spiritual work. For about 6 months after this happened, anyone who was within 25-40 feet of me also began sensing something "else" was going on. But those that live with me in my household were effected the most, because they also recieved glimpses here and there in those first 6 months, which in that way made what I was telling my house-hold an objective proof that I was speaking the truth.

I'll answer the other questions in my next post as I am running out of maximum characters in this one. ALso Shiluhud, you have a PM !!

For all the athiests/agnostics that say that God, Prayer, and Religious experiences are just brain activity that can be measured scientifically, I say this. Here is a gift for you all and it's through science that we may know this:

www.theledger.com.../20061107/ZNYT04/611070428/-1/Health

Originally posted by dominicus
For all the athiests/agnostics that say that God, Prayer, and Religious experiences are just brain activity that can be measured scientifically, I say this. Here is a gift for you all and it's through science that we may know this:

www.theledger.com.../20061107/ZNYT04/611070428/-1/Health

Thanks for the link, I read it. What exactly was it you were referring to that we may know? In the article, the authors conclude by saying that it is not clear what their findings mean. So what is your point? I have read studies showing prayer significantly improving the outcomes of the challenges the prayed-for were facing, even though they had no knowledge they were being prayed for. Online, I found three such studies. But, I am unsure what to make of your link, which is about speaking in tongues, a subject I cannot find has any substantial value in it.

Was kind of wondering myself as to the point of the link - proves absolutely nothing. Still waiting for my answers Dominicus!



G

for the guy saying enlightenment means getting in touch with god. Your wrong. Enlightenment has nothing to do with god, it has to do with finding your own form of peace and complete content.

If you believe you are enlightened, fine, move along and have a jolly good day. For me, I found my own truth. Not that god doesn't exist, or that we can't prove that god doesn't or does exist. It's that it DOESN'T MATTER if god does or doesn't exist. If you act out of motive to please god, your not being yourself, and just trying to fool yourself and everyone else that your some one your not. At the end of the day, that doesn't prove anything.

You have to act out of your own motivation, not gods, if you want to show you are truely enlightened. You, like many others, act on moral rights and wrongs said by a certain book. Right and wrong isn't something you find in a book, or some scripture, its something you find in your heart when your faced with a specific situation that you are unsure of.

If you can understand why religion and the bible has a couple gems, you may be well on your way to understand why it doesn't matter if god exists. If you understand the logic from the reason right and wrongs were made, you will have a better idea of why I have come to my conclusion.

Being enlightened isn't just about finding your own piece of mind though, its understand the logic behind everyone elses.

Originally posted by grimreaper797 Not that god doesn't exist, or that we can't prove that god doesn't or does exist. It's that it DOESN'T MATTER if god does or doesn't exist.
Right and wrong isn't something you find in a book, or some scripture, its something you find in your heart when your faced with a specific situation that you are unsure of.

Well said grim. I too care not whether god does or does not exist. It doesn't change what I would do.
And, I agree totally about finding it in your heart. I took 39 years to learn that I do far better when I listen to my heart. Before, I would always trust my brain...
Thankfully, I finally tried the other course, and found it to be far preferable.
Even if god exists, could our limited minds have any grasp of gods nature?
I doubt it, so why bother wasting time trying to understand god?
I have found that in my life, I need only listen to my heart and I do just fine.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Well said grim. I too care not whether god does or does not exist. It doesn't change what I would do.
And, I agree totally about finding it in your heart. I took 39 years to learn that I do far better when I listen to my heart. Before, I would always trust my brain...
Thankfully, I finally tried the other course, and found it to be far preferable.
Even if god exists, could our limited minds have any grasp of gods nature?
I doubt it, so why bother wasting time trying to understand god?
I have found that in my life, I need only listen to my heart and I do just fine.

I believe the only thing we can truely never foresee and understand is the future. No amount of calculating can ever show us what the future may hold. The variables become within minutes imaginable for any human to foresee what will happen in the even near distant future.

Could we find the origin of the universe, very possible. Could we find out where life came from, and know all the laws of the universe? Yes, could we even possibly time travel to the future and past, maybe. But even if we could see the future, then come back, we could never have the same future, and we could never predict what would happen.

You calculate to the best of your abilities then do what your heart tells you to do. What action could you live with. You know what you know, then you make the action that you feel will be the best choice. We can never know without a doubt what will happen in the future. The odds become greater as time between the two decrease, but even what may happen in a minute from now we cannot definately say.

It is because of that, I know that right and wrong are imagined in our heads. Whats right for one situation may be the worst possible choice for another.

Took me two years of thinking every night for a couple hours to realize that. Now, at 17, I got alot of life ahead of me, but Im prepared for it at least.

Take this how you wish, for what its worth I give my word this is entirely true, and not in any way embellished or fabricated. I say that because what I am about to say is unbelievable, and most people cannot accept it really happens. But I can't control what others conclude, so it doesn't matter whether I am trusted to be telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. You and I agree that we can't know what the future holds. I can say this, though: In my 42 years of life, I have had around 6 to 10 dreams which showed me scenes, very detailed specific scenes, which I was to later see for real. There are many theories about how that could be just a psychological phenomenon, and that it didn't really happen, but they do not explain what I have seen. For example, in more than one case, I told others the dream before it happened in reality. It is worth noting that in none of these cases did I have any clue that these few and far between dreams were any different than any other regular dreams. They were very vivid, and odd, and that is why I told others about a couple of them. For most of my life I avoided trying to explain how this could be possible, but events three years ago motivated me to need to find an answer I could accept.
However right or wrong I may be, I did come up with something that I could swallow, and then found that there are others who agree.
It was the idea that time is not linear, but instead is instantaneous, and exists solely in the present moment, meaning that the past, present, and future only exist right now. If this is the case, I can see how it could be possible that I could see the future. Linear time does not make sense to me when I try to fit my experience into it.
You may think I am nuts, or a liar, and I would not hold that against you. I might have done the same had I not been the one making the claim.
I don't know why I felt I should mention all that, but I do feel that for 17 years old, you have a lot of wisdom. Always trust yourself, and if something doesn't make sense to you, don't accept it, no matter who said it to you.
As for right and wrong, I have studied a bit on that, and concluded that I believe there is absolute ethics. There are some things that just are right, and others that just are wrong. The degree to which something is wrong or right may vary, but I see a clear line between the two.

BG, Ive already had 3 vivid. First came true at 13, exactly how I dreamed. Second did and didn't. I remembered it and knew what to do before what I feared would happen happened.

Did yours go word for word, or just closely related? My were word for word. Its like having deja vu for minutes. So instead of getting pissed off at the person I was talking to for something very rude they said, I simply stuck with them. Instead of them storming out, getting in their car, getting into a fatal accident, they simply stuck around for the rest of the night.

Can I say what I did was right, I hope so. Do I feel what I did was the best decision, yes.

Now for my third dream, it hasn't happened yet, and I can tell it won't for a long while, but unlike the other two it wont be something I can change, and I am well aware of it. Either way, it is something unique.

What do I think about these? Well I believe that time infinately branches out. I believe that because I believe time travel is very possible and infinate branching goes along with this. Ive read alot of physics/black hole books and such, which is why I have ultimately figured this could be a possibility. How am I dreaming this? Well let me put it like this, you dream, whether you deverted it or not, happened anyway.

If you did something to devert it, it still happened, just not to you on this timeline. You dreamed it because it will happen to you, regardless of whether its you or you on another time line. At that point when you had the dream, it was certain that it would happen to a branch of you.

For example you dream your death, from that point A, you may branch off say 30 times (in reality it would be a great deal more). 10 out of those 30 die from the way you dreamed, its just a matter of whether or not one of those 10 were "you".

Hope you understand what Im trying to say haha.

Thanks for that grimreaper. How do you know when the dream is a precog one and not just a dream? I don't ever know till it starts to happen for real.
I haven't ever changed what would happen, but it is good that you did so.
One time I had one that came true about ten years later. It was very odd, and I told lots of people about it. The reality was very slightly different than the dream, but the key points, which were very odd, were the same. I always wondered what the dream meant, and now feel like I know.
In three of my precog dreams, there has been a celebrity, though they are not any particularly favoured ones. That is the only thing I've noticed that they have had in common, and even then, that has been less than half of them.
I also have a dream that I wonder about.... from about 25 years ago. I don't know what it meant, and my gut feeling is that it did mean something, though I could be wrong.