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Free Will does not Exist

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posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 12:37 AM
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Lysergic, most people are not aware that God controls everyting about them. I was not aware of this until 11 years ago at age 29, when God began combining His language directed at my brain with my physical motion. Later, I realized that God controls everything about me, including Spirituality. God controls everything; most humans are not cognizant of it YET. But they will be cognizant of it in the future, no matter whether in this Life or in the Afterlife!!!




posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 12:45 AM
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So he controls the way I am, therefore I am doing no wrong, ever? Because its what God is wanting me to do?



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 12:56 AM
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Originally posted by Lysergic
So he controls the way I am, therefore I am doing no wrong, ever? Because its what God is wanting me to do?


Lysergic, you do wrong and I do wrong. It is God's way of teaching us what is right so that we can experience the Glory of Heaven and Live with the Supreme Being of the Universe.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
If you have no choice, then how can you be saved? I think that serial killers, serial rapists, child abusers, and habitual violent criminals cannot avoid taking responsibility for their crimes. They can claim, it was Gods will, or the devil made me do it, but I don't buy it......
.......I believe that they chose it, and that if there is a God, that God would make freewill a necessity, because without it then this whole thing is just one big meaningless rehearsal where all the actors lines are written for them, and you already know the ending, so whats the point?


Everyone is correct in a way.

We have free will in our actions as the Bible tells us we will be rewarded or not in Heaven. Example:

Matthew 6:2, speakes of not getting rewarded in heaven for acts you have seeked rewards for on earth.

Matthew 18 also speakes of rewards in heaven.

We have no free will has to being saved. Example:
Ephesians 1:4, for he chose us in him before creation......
Ephesians 1:5, he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will....

We get rewarded for our actions but God has already chosen who will be saved.

This is his plan and no one can be above God to question why or even understand.

Romans 11:33

Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever! Amen.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 05:53 PM
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Greetings dr_strangecraft





Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Sometimes I wonder whether humans gain freewill once they have seriously pondered surrender to God:


Luke 4:18b
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed . . .

John 8:31-32; 34-36
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." . . . . Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

The whole conversation between Pontius Pilatus and Jesus in John 18 turns on freedom and truth, but is too lengthy to quote here; it's worth a look, as well

Galatians 5:13
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love.





True indeed.


This is what the Gnostic teachings say as well:






A Talk on the Mysteries of Life and Death



...Well, this indicates that we do not even have free will.


Everything happens to us, I repeat, as when it rains or thunders.


There is a small margin of free will, but it is very small.


Imagine for a moment, a violin inside its case. There is a very small margin of movement for that violin.


In this form is our free will. It is almost non-existent, there is only a small margin of free will, it’s almost imperceptible.


If we know how to use it, then it’s possible for us to transform ourselves radically and to become free from the Law of Recurrence, but it is necessary to use that small margin.



In practical life we have to become a little bit more self-aware. When one accepts that one has a psychology, then one begins to observe oneself and when one begins to observe oneself, then one begins to become different.

It is in the street, at home, and at our job where the defects that are hidden appear spontaneously, and if we are as alert and vigilant as the watchman in times of war then we can see them. A discovered defect has to be judged through conscious analysis, reflection and inner Meditation, using the Being with the intention to understand it. When one comprehends a determined defect, then one is already prepared to disintegrate it atomically.

Is it possible to disintegrate the defect? Yes it is possible, but we need a power that is superior to the mind, because the mind by itself cannot fundamentally alter any psychological defect. The mind can classified it with different names, can pass it from one level of the understanding to another, can hide it from itself or from other people, it can justify it or condemn it, but it can never alter it radically. We need a power that is superior to the mind, a power that can disintegrate any I-defect. That power is latent in the bottom of our psyche, it is necessary to know that power and to learn to utilize it
...








As long as our egos of lust, envy, gluttony, hatred, ignorance, etc. are alive, we are almost nothing but mechanical puppets moved by the lower aspect of the forces of nature.
















Freedom is found with Christ, as Christ is beyond mechanicity and Christ is far beyond the ego.

The ego can only exist because of Christ; however, Christ doesn't directly create it.

We created the ego when we decided to not follow the Will of our Inner-God.

Our egos merely exist, but we need to learn how to BE; Christ is the BEING.

To BE or not to BE.

Freedom is found within BEING and not in just merely existing.


In fact, it is said that the etymology of "Sat-an" implies "two wills".






(Tamahu's notes in parenthesis)



amirfatir.tripod.com...



In the Egyptian system, Hu meant will. But the Arabic system associated Hu with Sa to the point that the Arabic word for Sa (Shay) came to mean will.

The Egyptians understood that two wills operated in woman and man. The "ordinary" will was symbolised as Heru(Horus)(Tiphereth) while the divine will was symbolised as Tehuti(Chokmah). It was the work of the initiate to bring the Heru(human)-will(Human Soul) into accord with the Hu (divine) will(Chokmah/Tehuti).


When the two wills were at odds, the result was (in Arabic) shaytaan. Shaytaan (Satan) actually means "two wills". (The word shayt means will and "aan" means two)
...








If we're sincere, we'll see that Satan or "two-wills" is only figurative, as we really have an entire Legion of I's, each with their own motives.





About the Soul



...Before all, it is necessary to know the way which takes us to the Intimate Self-realization of the Being.

It is urgent to comprehend the necessity to crystallize within us that which is called Soul. Jesus the Christ said:

“With patience shall you possess your Souls.”

Also, before all, it is good to understand what the Soul is. Truly I must tell you that the Soul is a group of laws, principles, virtues, powers, etc. People possess the Essence, the psychic material to produce the Soul, but they do not possess the Soul yet.

Obviously, someone who wants to possess that which is normally called Soul must disintegrate the undesirable psychic elements (“I’s”) like laziness, gluttony, etc. Virgil, the poet of Mantua, said,

“Even if you had a thousand tongues and a steel palate, you would not be able to enumerate all your Defects.”

Obviously, they are called “psychic aggregates” in Tibet. These aggregates are like many of the elementaries which several Occult organizations talk about, and they are a living personification of our errors.

It has been said that Jesus of Nazareth threw Seven Demons out of Mary Magdalene’s body. Indubitably these represent the seven capital defects which incessantly multiply themselves. This affirmation about the Christ means that the intimate Christ threw several inhuman psychic aggregates out of Mary Magdalene’s body. Each one of these aggregates is organized in a very similar way to that of the human Personality, and they possess three brains: the intellectual, the emotional, and the moving-instinctual-sexual.

Each Aggregate really looks like a person. If we say that many people live within us, we are not exaggerating; it is so. All the aggregates fight with each other, they struggle for superiority. Each one of them wants to be the “Master,” the lord. The one who succeeds in imposing himself, the one who succeeds in controlling the five cylinders of the organic machine in a given moment, thinks he is the only one. Moments later, nevertheless, he is vanquished and another takes his place.

So in reality, truly, a person is not the same, not even for half an hour. It seems incredible, but it is so. You, yourselves, sitting here and listening, came in with an aggregate, and you sat and listened, but if you pay attention to what has happened inside you until this precise moment, you will discover that now you are different, that you are not the same ones who came here and sat down. Why? Because the psychic aggregate which controls the organic machine and began sitting down was displaced by another which is now listening.

If I said you were the same all along, I would be abusing your Mind and my own. So in reality, psychic aggregates are changing; one is in control of the main centers of the brain just as soon as another. We never remain the same.

As for the Essence, it is the most worthy, the most decent thing we have inside of us. It is our Consciousness. Unquestionably, it is found bottled within all those multiple aggregates, processing itself by Virtue of its own conditioning.



Each one of you is legion. Let us remember what Master Jesus asked the possessed man in the gospel. “What is your name?”

And the possessed man answered: “My name is legion.”

What is the name of each person here? Legion! You do not have true individuality. You have not achieved it.




The Consciousness in each one of you is terribly asleep. Why? Because it processes itself by virtue of its own embottlement. It is found in a hypnotic state and that cannot be denied.

And about the Soul itself, have you achieved, perhaps, its crystallization? If I said that you do not have an immortal Soul, I would also be lying; I am conscious of this. Obviously, each of you has an immortal Soul, but you do not possess it.

Someone could have a beautiful diamond put away in a safe, and possibly he would enjoy thinking he has such object. But if it were pawned, he would not possess it. He would know that he has the jewel, but he could not ignore that he truly does not possess it.

Many times someone receives a nice inheritance and he knows he has it, but it is one thing to have it and another to possess it
...







We also see that the Sanskrit "SAT" is the same as the Hebrew "AIN" who is the Seity(which is beyond Deity).



So let's have One SAT instead two(Sat-An).







Regards






[edit on 19-9-2006 by Tamahu]



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 07:24 PM
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Free will does not exist. God is constantly creating and modifying you. If you believe in free will, you partly or wholly are an atheist. Belief in free will fails to recognized the truest, highest, and most exalted form of God. There are levels of belief in God, and those that do not believe in free will have the highest conception of God.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 08:45 PM
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It is true that the Law of Karma(created by God) is for our own good, in that we can learn from our mistakes.


But you're saying that God intentionally creates suffering directly?

That would be blasphemy.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 09:52 PM
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Originally posted by Tamahu
It is true that the Law of Karma(created by God) is for our own good, in that we can learn from our mistakes.

But you're saying that God intentionally creates suffering directly?

That would be blasphemy.


God not only intentionally creates suffering directly, but suffers Himself. His only Son suffered much of His Life with the pinnacle being the suffering on the Holy Cross. This not blasphemy; this is reality and the truth.

Suffering is part of life but not wholly. Angels even cry in Heaven. With faith, hope, and love, we all find the path back towards ecstasy.

If you have suffered much of your life, you can, through God's Infinite Will, inspire others back to happiness. By helping others, you help yourself.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 02:36 PM
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The way that I see it, is that we do have free will. We may have a predetermined destiny that was created for us, but there are an infinite number of ways to arrive there. For example, you are on the roof of a building and you have a penny. This penny is destined to fall off of the building and touch the ground, think about how many possible ways that penny can arrive to it's destination. You can throw it, kick it, drop it, roll it off, skip it off of the roof, etc. There are so many ways that this penny can arrive at it's destiny, you have to consider even the most outrageous ideas as to how the penny can get to the ground, as they are all possible.

This was just a simple example about how we do have free will to an extent. We ultimately arrive at our destiny, but how we get there, how long it takes, etc. is up to us.

And as for the whole god lays out every single detail of everything's life belief, imagine what it would be like to be a single molecule inside of a human. You are a miniscule part of something that ( when compared to you) is gigantic. You can't see the body as whole because of how small you are. There is often so much space between you and other types of molecules. Nobody can tell me that we (humans) consciously control every single molecule or cell that makes up our body. They all have a destiny, which is to do a job for us. They all go about completing this job in their own special way (free will).

What's to say that we aren't the same as those tiny molecules and cells. How can free will not exist? If free will doesn't exist, then obviously it was in god's plan for me to come here and tell you this story which contradicts your beliefs. If it is god's will that I come in here and contradict the beliefs of many by telling this story, and if I'm incorrect about my whole theory, why would god have allowed me to come up with it in the first place?

So basically what it comes down to is....

Either free will does exist, or god has devised a very elaborate plan for making one of us look very silly.

Peace, love, and light.

Pancho



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 08:20 PM
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Free Will is atheism. God's Will is faith and belief. Free Will rejects God's Omniscience, Omnipotence, and Omniprescence. God's Will accepts God's Omniscience, Omnipotence, and Omniprescence. Free Will believes that you can outdo God. God's Will believes that you are a Servant of God for Eternity.

May we all accept the responsibility of being God's Servants for Eternity.



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 08:45 PM
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If that is true, then why did god send me in here to contradict your beliefs? That is the question i would like to see explained. If everyone is a servant, then why was i sent here to say what i have? If everything is laid out by god to the smallest detail, why would god allow two contradictory beliefs to be discussed on the same thread at ATS? If we are both servants to god, what is the purpose of us not believing the same thing?

Have you ever pondered that maybe you were destined to come here and learn that there is such a thing as free will? If you are calling me an atheist because i believe in free will, then so be it, i've been called everything including the anti-christ, it's your opinion that you've come up with on your own free will, and you are entitled to it. The thing i don't understand is, if god lays out everything for us, and you believe i'm an atheist for believing in free will, shouldn't i also believe that i'm an atheist, that is of course assuming free will doesn't exist.

How could there even be atheists if there were no free will? Surely god would not have all of the servants not believing in god's own existence. If there is no such thing as free will, why is earth so diverse? How can there be so many religions and belief systems that contradict each other? Is it possibly because there is no one true path to enlightenment and we have the FREE WILL to choose which one best suits us? If there is no free will, then what about every belief that contradicts yours, how does it even exist? Was it put here just to show how right you are?

I'm very open minded, and if you can somehow answer all my questions with answers that don't involve the bible, which is a book written by men, so in this case it has no say (or any other religious book that wasn't written directly by god) , then i will be more than glad to consider your view.

I'm not trying to attack you, it's just i've spent my whole life pondering subjects such as this, from as young as i can remember even thinking at all. All that I ask of you, is that you answer my question from what you hold to believe true, not what a book said, and not what a friend of a friend said they heard, I want to hear what you feel deep down on the inside and why you think this way. I wish you the best of luck (or does god will me to wish you good luck? We may never know.).

Peace be with you all

Pancho

[edit on 21/9/2006 by 7Pan7cho7]



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 09:07 PM
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7Pan7cho7, if you believe in Free Will, you have separated yourself from God and God's Will. The Universe in Earth and Afterlife terms, is a hierarchical structure: God is at the Top and Satan is at the bottom. The more we find the Truth of Life, the closer we are to God and the Top. Some people who read the Holy Bible believe that God created Heaven and Earth and then stopped creating. God is constantly creating and recreating everything. When we believe this with all our Souls, Hearts, Minds, and Strengths, we start believing in God's Will. Our purpose in Life is to advance in this Hierarchy so that we become closer to God and His Will.



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 09:50 PM
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I do agree with you about the heirarchy thing, but that's about it. Satan is something that was creating by man. It's like the yin-yang, except with god and the devil. Until you let go of your dualistic ways, you will continue to judge what is good and bad. What's good in one person's opinion is not always ok in another's.

This way of thinking (free will) has done nothing but bring me closer to god (or whatever you'd like to call it.) Ever since i've opened my eyes, i've recieved nothing but a feeling of completeness, a stronger bond with everything. I love more now and do not hate anymore. I have learned to accept the responsiblity and consequences that accompany my actions. I don't judge people as much as i used to, and i'm trying to make the world a better place to live in by spreading love and unity.

If i'm a atheist or anything else to you then that's fine. If someone thinks i'm a devil worshipper, that's fine too, because i'm neither of those. If it was gods will to have me not do the things mentioned above (peace, love, unity, etc.) then i can honestly say that i wouldn't worshipp that god.

Call me what you will and judge me if you wish, but you still have yet to answer any of my questions from the previous post.

Peace, love, and light.



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by GreatTech

Originally posted by Tamahu
It is true that the Law of Karma(created by God) is for our own good, in that we can learn from our mistakes.

But you're saying that God intentionally creates suffering directly?

That would be blasphemy.


God not only intentionally creates suffering directly, but suffers Himself. His only Son suffered much of His Life with the pinnacle being the suffering on the Holy Cross. This not blasphemy; this is reality and the truth.

Suffering is part of life but not wholly. Angels even cry in Heaven. With faith, hope, and love, we all find the path back towards ecstasy.

If you have suffered much of your life, you can, through God's Infinite Will, inspire others back to happiness. By helping others, you help yourself.




AIN SOPH does not create suffering directly.

God(as Lucifer) only creates the possibility of suffering.

"The Devil" is symbolic of the aspect of the Divine that creates said possibility of suffering.

So this aspect of God is Christus-Lucifer(the Creator who first manifests from the Absolute).


The aspect of existence that is NOT directly related to God, we could say is Satan-Lucifer, the ego, the one who is the result of the abuse of free-will and that harms Sentient Beings(but then again, without "Satan" there would be no stepping-stool to stand on in order to climb the Tree of Life back to Heaven).

But the aspect of or spark of God(Buddha Nature) within each one of us, that is trapped within the fleeting and subjective mind-formations("Satan") that were created do to the abuse of free-will, indeed suffers.

Also, Christ and His Bodhisattvas do intentionally take suffering upon themselves, in order to assist this suffering humanity.

And the Christ is Crucified in all of Nature in order for the Universe to exist, however; this does not mean that He directly creates things like drug abuse, theft, rape, homosexuality, murder, etc.

If free-will were non-existent, and everything was pre-determined; then that would mean that God does create these things.

This would be the most absurd and blasphemous thing one could think of.

Just because the Divine Creates ALL things and is Within ALL things, does not mean that the Divine creates all actions(negative actions are not things, they are ways of things which are the result of ignorance)



You contradict yourself when you say that the Angels cry in hopes that we'll find our way back to Heaven.

If there's no free-will, what's the point in them worrying or hoping about it, if it is all pre-determined anyway?



If you want to put an end to suffering, look at the causes of suffering within yourself and apply the proper remedy; don't wait for God to do it for you.

Seek Divine asisstance(from Chokmah), but don't think you don't have to do your(Tiphereth) part.


Well, I may be bringing up more questions than providing answers...


But I'll end my post with this:





"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve"... - Joshua 24


"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matt 6:24







Do the Knowledge(unfortunately the entire excerpt is unavailible right now):




www.aasorlando.org...


...Heru corresponds to our will, which is the freedom to follow or reject divine law, and our emotions.

This freedom is the crux of our divinity.

Without it, man would be compelled to follow the structural shaping forces of order which manifest in the 10th sphere as the “instincts” that compel all other creatures to obey the law, in which case he could not be held accountable to law, human or divine, let alone be considered the “likeness of God”.

Hence, spiritual growth occurs only when behavior and actions are initiated independent of emotional impulses (i.e., one ignores them). Many people are ignorant of the intrinsic freedom of their will, or are so habituated to acting out of emotional impulsion, or seeming compulsion, that they voluntarily renounce their intrinsic mastery over their spirit. This defaulting to the emotions is represented by Heru Khenti an Maati, or “Heru the Blind”.

The other common misconception about the will is the belief that “power” is an attribute of it. The ability to achieve one’s will is, therefore, spoken of as “strength of will”, etc. But the very factors that make the will intrinsically free of emotional (the power part of our being) influence, also denies it of power as its attribute. A major correspondence of Heru (Shango, the “sun”, etc.) is the king (and all people in authority). His function is to command the people and the army to carry out works. He does not have the power to do it himself. Similarly, when we declare our will to achieve a goal or carry out a behavior, we are commanding another part of our being which possesses the attributes of power. This is Ra, our life-force. It is of interest to note that the symbol of Ra is a serpent surmounting the solar disk, and all of its creative functions are carried out through the agency of hekau (words of power). We should not be surprised that the most primitive, hence most powerful part of our brain, the “reptilian brain” or R-complex, is responsive to sound waves and rhythm and not ideas. Perhaps some day, Western psychologists will realize that this part of the brain is the doorway to the root shaping factors of our behavior, as well as the powers of nature. The supreme way, then, of willing events is through the chanting of the heka controlling the physical manifestation. This manner of declaring our will is symbolized by Heru-Pa-Khart (Harpocrates), i.e., “Heru, the child”. He is depicted emerging from a lotus wearing the red and white crown, holding the flail and crook (see Appendix A) in one hand, while making the sign of silence and of chanting hekau. The lotus, which is a flower that requires a great deal of sunlight (it closes with the setting sun, opens with its rising) is a symbol of the psychic centers (chakras) wherein manifest the forces represented by the words of power. The “sign of silence and chanting hekau,” which is made by pointing the index finger to the mouth, symbolizes chanting combined with the cessation of ideation as the supreme means of expressing the will.


...Our willingness to carry out our will, as we all know so well, depends greatly on our state of vitality...


...But the heart of the teaching is that by observing order, regularity, and the cycles governing the body’s functions, the health of the vital organs were insured, and thus the vitality. It is thus that we secure and preserve the ability to maintain the clarity of mind that is necessary for the practice of Men Ab, and the sense of vitality that supports our willingness to carry out our will. Compare this with the common belief, even among psychologists and “mind power experts”, that “will power” is developed through “mental exercises”.




© Ra Un Nefer Amen







One of the interpretation sof the Seal of Solomon related to Free-Will:





www.gnosticteachings.org...







Beloved brethren of my soul:

We are now going to study the sixth Arcanum of the Tarot.

Beloved, remember that indeed without any doubt, the two interlaced triangles of the Seal of Solomon, which join or separate love, are the two shuttles with which the ineffable mystery of eternal life in the loom of God is woven or unwoven. The upper triangle symbolizes Kether (the Father who is in secret), Chokmah (the Son) and Binah (the Holy Spirit of each Human Being). The lower triangle represents the Three Traitors of Hiram Abiff; those three traitors are inside of us. The first traitor is the Demon of Desire; that traitor lives within the Astral Body. The second traitor is the Demon of the Mind; that traitor lives within the Mental Body. The third traitor is the Demon of Evil Will; that traitor lives within the Body of Willpower (Causal Body).

The Bible cites these three traitors in the Apocalypse of Saint John in Revelation: 16: 13, 14:

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet; for they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty (El-Shaddai).

The three traitors constitute the reincarnating Ego, the psychological ‘I,’ the Satan that must be dissolved in order to incarnate the Inner Christ, which is constituted by Kether, Chokmah and Binah. The superior triangle is the Resplendent Dragon of Wisdom whereas the inferior triangle is the Black Dragon
...







Regards





[edit on 22-9-2006 by Tamahu]



posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 04:57 PM
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To simplify, let me propose a 'theory'.


Free-Will does not deny the Divine's Omniscience, and this is why.

The future does not exist yet, so how could any mind or Consciousness, whether it be God's or "anyone else's", know or not know something that does not exist?

The Omniscience of God does know everything present and past.

God knows how many atoms are in the Universe, how many hairs are on each of our heads, all of our sins and virtues, all the workings of all the Laws that He/She created in every dimension and parallel Universe, etc.

But like I've said, the future does not exist, so how could God know or not know it?

God knows all that is present and is past, but because we have free-will, the non-existent future is not 100% foreseeable.

Now this does not mean that prophecy is not an attribute of God and Her/His Prophets.

Prophecies of God are almost always fulfilled, as the Divine can see all of the past and the present events; astrological conditions, Laws of Nature, the general tendencies of humanity, etc.; in order to see how things will most likely unfold.

But since we have at least some degree of free-will(based on our level of awakened Consciousness), it is possible that a change of action could change the chain of causes and effects, therefore altering to some degree, what was seen to be the most likely course of action.


So, God is Omniscient.

And we are also capable of having free-will.


When we eliminate the ego and transcend the mechanical cycle of Samsara, free-will is no longer a question; because then we do the Will of God in which is there found True Freedom.



posted on Sep, 25 2006 @ 11:04 PM
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A believer in "Free Will" denies God Perfection. Do you think God could rightly judge your virtues (good works) and sins in this life and the Afterlife if He lacked perfect knowledge of your past and the Universe's future? God works for the good of every Soul and no external force (that doesn't exist!!!) can take away from this. Do you believe all of Will is the sum of God's, an external force's, and human's? The sum of all Will is God's Will. What agencies of Life have "Free Will" other than that of God's?



posted on Sep, 26 2006 @ 07:00 AM
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A dog can make choices, it thinks it has free will as does man. God is what is inside all creation. If one thing does not have free will they all don't. If one thing does they all do. God is in everything, we judge ourselves. Reality is an illusion on top of illusion. We are in a real illustion. The creater can not be know seperate from creation. The creator is best seen in change and is there for changeless.



posted on Sep, 26 2006 @ 07:22 PM
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Don't you see the erroneousness of your arguements GreatTech?


Look; to believe that everything is pre-determined, you may as well be a nihilist.

To deny any type of Free-Will, is to deny God.

As I already quoted Ra Un Nefer Amen in this thread as saying:



This freedom is the crux of our divinity.



If there were no Free-Will, God would be far worse than any Satan could ever be; meaning that all the intense suffering that Sentient Beings go through, would be created by such a "God"(the latter of which is not the case).


You claim that suffering is for us to gain Wisdom or to learn, which is in itself true.

But where is the learning if there is no Consciousness involved?

If trials and tribulations are completely mechanical and already predetermined, then there is only an unconscious "learning", which is no learning at all.

The Ray of Creation sets up the various dimensions so that a set of choices, related to the apparent division of the Universe, can present themselves to humans from moment to moment.

Since most people don't even attempt to awaken their Consciousness(or God's Consciousness within them rather), we could say that the majority of people hardly exercise their Free-Will at all; in that they simply default to the mechanical forces of the lower aspects of nature and the astrological influences that operate on the lunar bodies of desire.


You could do much damage by telling people there is no Free-Will at all, in that they might just become either religiously fanatical, or nihilistic which are both two poles of ignorance(but you don't care, because all is already pre-determined right? :shk: )

People will just sit on their ass and do nothing, if they actually think there is no possibility of Consciously alleviating suffering.

Or just as bad or even worse, they might commit all types of violent and sexual crimes in order to satisfy their egos, because "everything is already pre-determined", right?

So what they were to do(whether it be rape, homicide, crack, genocide, etc.) was already planned?




We do have the ability to conform our Will to that of God's Will, as to integrate them to become ONE.

The key to this is found in the following passage:



"Thy Will be done in Earth(Tiphereth through Malkuth) as it is in Heaven(AIN through Geburah)."



This is the foundation of the motto of Thelema.


But this can only truly be done through meditation and the transmutation of the Sexual Energy, because The Voice of the Silence(God's Voice) is what gives the Essence(related to Tiphereth) the information it needs in order to exercise God's Will, instead of ego-will which leads to suffering.

The Transmuted Sexual Energy is what gives the Essence the Power in order to carry out the information received through meditation.

So Understanding the God-Will that leads to Unity, both apparent and actual, is not the same as the ego-will that tries to create division.


The Two Trees are what gives us the clue to all this:



Lucifer


From a Buddhist perspective, there are two perspectives which are like two trees that share the same roots. To explain it Kabbalistically, we can say that the true nature of a thing is the Ain Soph, which transcends duality, the perceiver and perceived etc. That is the Seity. On the other hand, under the Absolute, within the created and manifested universe, duality is the seed of everything that seems to exist. The problem occurs when you don't understand both of these perspectives. If you forget about the Seity, then you believe that everything is happening and occuring as it seems to be happening according to your so-called awareness--this is the root ignorance and this is why the ego becomes identified. On the other hand, if we were to think that there isn't relative existence and that dualism is a lie, then we ignore the understanding of the mechanics of the manifested universe (which leads again into delusion) and therefore could not ever attain liberation from the mechanics of this universe. Therefore, in order to be liberated or above Good and Evil, you must have the Knowledge of Good and Evil.





I repeat: GOD DOES NOT CREATE SUFFERING.

God only creates the possibility of suffering.



If you believe that everything is pre-determined, then you certainly don't worship the God of the Bible, you worship a "God" who is much worse than any demon could ever be.


I already provided the quotes from the Bible showing that we have the possibility of the freedom of choice.





Originally posted by GreatTech
A believer in "Free Will" denies God Perfection. Do you think God could rightly judge your virtues (good works) and sins in this life and the Afterlife if He lacked perfect knowledge of your past and the Universe's future?




No, God Judges based on our past works and our present from moment to moment.

The future is not already set in stone(it has no existence).

God is Perfect, but also allows His Monads to explore possibilities, in order to experience Him/Her-Self through them.




God works for the good of every Soul and no external force (that doesn't exist!!!) can take away from this. Do you believe all of Will is the sum of God's, an external force's, and human's? The sum of all Will is God's Will. What agencies of Life have "Free Will" other than that of God's?




Look, choices not in conformity with God's Will, are still within the realm of God's Being(the entire Universe) and Awareness.

But they are not of Her/His Will, when they create suffering.

However, we do have the choice to default to the actions that try to go away from Unity, and this causes suffering for 'ourselves' by not following the principles of both apparant and actual Unity.

Now we can't actually create any Absolute division in the Universe, we can only create more apparent division(all is still interdependant regardless).

This attempt to divide is only an attempt, as the actions that create apparent division return to the initiator of such an act.


If we sow suffering, we reap suffering.




www.gnosticteachings.org...


"Karma creates nothing, nor does it design. It is man who plans and creates causes, and Karmic law adjusts the effects; which adjustment is not an act but universal harmony, tending ever to resume its original position, like a bough, which, bent down too forcibly, rebounds with corresponding vigor." - H.P.Blavatsky




God does not predetermine everything.

God only puts the Law of Karma into place, so that when one attempts to create division, that act is adjusted by Karmic Law.



Perhaps the following can help you to Understand:


www.gnosticteachings.org...

www.gnosticteachings.org...





Regards





[edit on 26-9-2006 by Tamahu]



posted on Sep, 26 2006 @ 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by crow2crow
A dog can make choices, it thinks it has free will as does man. God is what is inside all creation. If one thing does not have free will they all don't. If one thing does they all do. God is in everything, we judge ourselves. Reality is an illusion on top of illusion. We are in a real illustion. The creater can not be know seperate from creation. The creator is best seen in change and is there for changeless.




We have to remember that the animals do follow God's Will by default.

Only when we attain the Human form(metempsychosis), do we have the possibility of attempting to deviate from the Universal Plan.

A Monad taking on an animal, plant or mineral form again is the result of not exercising Will(as a humanoid) in order to achieve Malachim-hood.

Meaning that we have to go through the sufferings of these existences, in order to pay the Karma that we created through exercising ego-will in order to harm Sentient Beings.

But these non-humanoid forms of life only obey the elementals and are innocent and do not acquire more karma for being violent, fornicating, etc.

But the intellectual animal mistakenly called "Man"'s behaviour often becomes worse than an animal, when he combines the intellect and emotions with animal desires in a way not in conformity with the Will of God.

Because of Intellect and Intuition, we are responsible for doing our job as a vehicle of the Divine, in order to end suffering for ourselves and others(of which there is no real division between self and other).

We can choose not to do perform the Great Work, but we must suffer the consequences for choosing not to.

Some people prefer the latter and it is up to them.

And luckily for them, Hell/Klipoth is not Eternal like God.



At the end of the Maha-Kalpa, we could say this:




Nature of Beings


A baseball player would say:

"The end of the game is equal to the beginning plus the experience of the inning!"





How much pain we experience during the "game" is up to us.




Regards







[edit on 26-9-2006 by Tamahu]



posted on Sep, 26 2006 @ 07:40 PM
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I think there is free will, every one has a choice to follow god or to not follow him. I think God ultimately controls big events in your life. I think though you have a sort of free will that god tests you. Do you really think God would put sinners on earth had there was not free will?
He would have accepted that were prone to sin but not lost to hell all together.



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